£5 million St Albans redevelopment

[AM9]

I never liked waiting on the fast platforms at St Albans, I completely agree, massive accident waiting to happen there. Maybe building a new terminating platform (s) could mean that the fast platforms are fenced off like many other station in the country?

But the problem is that the volume of passengers passing through St Albans City station, could not be handled by the slow lines alone unless there were no stoppers between there and West Hampstead Thameslink in the peak hours. That might be convenient for the remaining MML passengers sailing through platforms 3 & 4, but would sort of mess up travel for up to 3 million* season ticket holders at the intermediate stops. There are plenty of stations where trains pass through platforms crowded with commuters at high speeds so it would be more than a St Albans City specific risk.

* Assuming that most of those 'season ticket entries' in the estimate for station use are travelling south in the morning and north in the evening peaks.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Mandatory long and loud use of the horn in the peak might help to reduce the risk - surprised some fast EMT drivers do not due so when tearing through at 90 mph the fast lines ....mixed use of the fast lines by Thameslink and EMT is critical for pathing purposes and cannot really be changed. ........

Agreed - can be a bit scary at times.

 

[John Webb]

yeah sorry didn't make it clear. I meant compared to the platform lengthening we've had for the thameslink programme.

I never liked waiting on the fast platforms at St Albans, I completely agree, massive accident waiting to happen there. Maybe building a new terminating platform (s) could mean that the fast platforms are fenced off like many other station in the country?

Still baffles me that there are people waiting for a train, on a platform that has other services flying through at 90 - 125 mph.

There is only 105mph max on the down fast and 100mph on the up fast, I believe, due to the curvature through St Albans City. (This can be blamed on the City fathers in the 1860s, who persuaded the MR to deviate from their original line some quarter-mile further eastwards. This was partly to get the station slightly nearer the town centre, and partly to ensure those getting off the trains didn't have to walk past the new City jail!)

On the few occasions I've travelled by train in the rush hour or have been working at the signal box in the early morning, I have noticed that the commuters do seem to heed the yellow warning lines on the platforms; in addition there are regular announcements when needed about "The next train does not stop at platform X.", in advance of the train getting into audible horn range.

 

[jon0844]

Are people told the train won't stop or the new GTR text that says may not stop?

 

[DelayRepay]

Given that this all focusses on the south side of St. Albans, when thinking about this I also envisioned a new complementary slow-lines-only station to serve the north side of St Albans a bit better (St. Albans North?), either at the junction of Sandridge Rd, Marshalswick Ln, Beech Rd. & St. Albans Rd; or a bit to the south on Sandpit Ln. I think the former wins out for catchment area and spacing concerns. You can't really justify this with the current station where it currently is, as anything to the north would probably be too close.

I can't find a reference online but I believe there were once plans to build a station near where you suggest, when the Marshalswick area was being developed.

 

[John Webb]

Are people told the train won't stop or the new GTR text that says may not stop?

The announcement over the PA system (only on the affected platform) says that the next train will not be stopping. I can't see the displays on the platforms unless I'm travelling by train.

 

[AM9]

The announcement over the PA system (only on the affected platform) says that the next train will not be stopping. I can't see the displays on the platforms unless I'm travelling by train.

There are repeated warnings of non-stop trains approaching platform 3 in the morning peak, usually by a station worker (sorry as I don't know the current job name, is it dispatcher?) who often stands around the display screen there. This is the one that shows the track layout similar to the opentraintimes maps. Somebody here will no doubt know the in-house name for it).

In the (almost) halcyon days when James Allen gave the announcements, he was meticulous in warning people until his voice was drowned out by the train itself. For those who don't know him see here:

https://www.facebook.com/jamesallenfanpage/

His successors do still ensure that at the busiest time, the public aren't ignorant of the oncoming hazard.

 

[Bald Rick]

There are repeated warnings of non-stop trains approaching platform 3 in the morning peak, usually by a station worker (sorry as I don't know the current job name, is it dispatcher?) who often stands around the display screen there. This is the one that shows the track layout similar to the opentraintimes maps. Somebody here will no doubt know the in-house name for it).

In the (almost) halcyon days when James Allen gave the announcements, he was meticulous in warning people until his voice was drowned out by the train itself. For those who don't know him see here:

https://www.facebook.com/jamesallenfanpage/

His successors do still ensure that at the busiest time, the public aren't ignorant of the oncoming hazard.

The system is P2, which is a simplified version of the CCF (Control Centre of the future) system used in operational Control offices.

James always used to say to stand back "because it would break my heart if any of you got injured"

 

[philjo]

Mandatory long and loud use of the horn in the peak might help to reduce the risk - surprised some fast EMT drivers do not due so when tearing through at 90 mph the fast lines ....mixed use of the fast lines by Thameslink and EMT is critical for pathing purposes and cannot really be changed. ........

Agreed - can be a bit scary at times.

Some of the VTEC 225s sound a continuous horn while going at speed through Platform 2 at Stevenage in the morning peak - the GN 12 coach non-stop service calls a few minutes later so the platform is starting to fill up.

 

[jon0844]

The announcement over the PA system (only on the affected platform) says that the next train will not be stopping. I can't see the displays on the platforms unless I'm travelling by train.

The spoken message still says does not stop, but the screen text has been changed on GN screens to say 'may not' which is odd, as it should be possible to know for sure. It's also contradictory if it says one thing and shows another, but hey, what do I know?

Clearly a train could stop for a signal even when scheduled to fly through, but it still isn't stopping (you can't board it, for example) and so I have no idea why they changed it unless someone thought it was just to 'play safe' - in which case why not change the recorded message too?

I'll be at St Albans Friday most likely so hopefully I am there early enough to see a fast train that may or may not stop pass through!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I can't find a reference online but I believe there were once plans to build a station near where you suggest, when the Marshalswick area was being developed.

Very likely as the LMS were proposing an overhead electrification scheme from St Pancras to Harpenden in the late 1930's - of course WW2 intervened and Bedpan turned up in the mid - late 1970's.

The builders of Marshalswick - T. F. Nash had strong links with suburban development in Metroland / on the Watford DC lines - and their £600 houses would have sold much better with a "nearby" MML route station. The best ever history of "semi-detached London and suburbs" - quoted this estate as pushing the boundaries of cost conscious mortgaged lower middle class - forced into a long walk or cycle ride to their newly acquired suburban houses. Plus a 35 min train journey behind steam to St Pancras or Moorgate.

My own house - built in 1934 has it's first owner as an LMS employee in the Civil engineering dept - but a comfy 17 min walk to the main station.

Sorry to digress into trivia.

For "social value" - would trade a new Napsbury station to replace the so called "Radlett Railfreight" terminal - i.e build houses - not road served warehouses. Enough space there for a centre turnback siding - overtking line line......

 

[Bald Rick]

The builders of Marshalswick - T. F. Nash had strong links with suburban development in Metroland / on the Watford DC lines - and their £600 houses would have sold much better with a "nearby" MML route station. The best ever history of "semi-detached London and suburbs" - quoted this estate as pushing the boundaries of cost conscious mortgaged lower middle class - forced into a long walk or cycle ride to their newly acquired suburban houses. Plus a 35 min train journey behind steam to St Pancras or Moorgate.

It's not that long, a very pleasant 32 minute walk in the morning

Mind you, I wish I had a relative who bought a few of these houses for £600 in the 50s. Some semis are now going for nearly £1m, tidy profit.

 

[DelayRepay]

Very likely as the LMS were proposing an overhead electrification scheme from St Pancras to Harpenden in the late 1930's - of course WW2 intervened and Bedpan turned up in the mid - late 1970's.

As this has been bugging me I have been trying to find a reference.

http://www.stalbansowneastend.co.uk/www.stalbansowneastend.co.uk/Sandridge_900_exhibition_2.html

These are the display boards from an exhibition at the museum in 2014. The bottom board on this page refers to Marshallswick station but says what was actually proposed was a goods siding. Make of it what you will.

 

[Schnuzelbug]

Very likely as the LMS were proposing an overhead electrification scheme from St Pancras to Harpenden in the late 1930's - of course WW2 intervened and Bedpan turned up in the mid - late 1970's.

Out of clarity, was the MML a two track passenger railway north of Luton before Bed-Pan? I was told the two slow tracks used today were once freight-only tracks but upgraded to passenger operation as part of the "Midland Suburban Electrification" project.

 

[John Webb]

As this has been bugging me I have been trying to find a reference.

http://www.stalbansowneastend.co.uk/www.stalbansowneastend.co.uk/Sandridge_900_exhibition_2.html

These are the display boards from an exhibition at the museum in 2014. The bottom board on this page refers to Marshallswick station but says what was actually proposed was a goods siding. Make of it what you will.

There was a "Lie-by" siding set up at Sandridge in March 1892 accessed from the Up Passenger line via the newly resited Up Goods line; this was part of the preparations for the installation of a new Down Goods line north of St Albans which was brought into use in October 1892. (Information from Midland Railway Weekly Notices held by the NRM.)
A siding and signal box were retained at Sandridge until, I think, around 1960, when they were removed. Intermediate Block signals (IBS) were installed between St Albans North and Harpenden; working of the down IBSs were transferred to St Albans South when the North box closed in 1970.

I've not seen any paperwork referring to any proposed station at the north end of St Albans; I'll check with colleagues at St Albans South - one member in particular may be aware of something if there was a proposal!

 

[Abpj17]

*sighs* St Albans needs work too, but Luton is by far and away the station north of St P that needs the most work given its size. Others have mentioned season ticket numbers, but this overlooks the now significant university population going through Luton. Luton has a population more than 3x bigger (the airport is a mix of locals and travellers; Leagrave is almost entirely locals but from a relatively narrow catchment area - in practice, it takes commuters from Houghton Regis and Dunstable which don't have their own stations). As others have said, it doesn't have lifts like many of the stations south now have and that makes it nigh on impossible for many disabled/buggies to use the trains as the local services stop on the centre platforms. It asked for 2.5mn and was turned down... http://www.lutontoday.co.uk/news/bu...vernment-rejects-2-5m-bid-for-funds-1-7295747

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=2016-03-11b.625.0#g625.1 indicates the problem tho - funds are needed for repairs, let alone improvements

she would be greeted by runs of heavy glass windows that have been boarded up because they have a tendency to fall out on to the tracks and, potentially, on to passengers below. If it were raining, she might see the ingeniously named platform 3 “water feature”, which cascades down from the bridge above. As she exited our inadequate ticket gates and took the overcrowded stairs heaving her ministerial boxes, she would have to hope that the station’s lift was working—this week, by the way, it is not.

 

[asylumxl]

*sighs* St Albans needs work too, but Luton is by far and away the station north of St P that needs the most work given its size. Others have mentioned season ticket numbers, but this overlooks the now significant university population going through Luton. Luton has a population more than 3x bigger (the airport is a mix of locals and travellers; Leagrave is almost entirely locals but from a relatively narrow catchment area - in practice, it takes commuters from Houghton Regis and Dunstable which don't have their own stations). As others have said, it doesn't have lifts like many of the stations south now have and that makes it nigh on impossible for many disabled/buggies to use the trains as the local services stop on the centre platforms. It asked for 2.5mn and was turned down... http://www.lutontoday.co.uk/news/bu...vernment-rejects-2-5m-bid-for-funds-1-7295747

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=2016-03-11b.625.0#g625.1 indicates the problem tho - funds are needed for repairs, let alone improvements

Unfortunately it falls on deaf ears, both on this forum and to the government as far as it seems. I imagine, as Mr Shuker says, that they will not give the funding and force through the stand alone footbridge as the only option and then abandon further plans.

I stick by my belief it's political point scoring on behalf of the Tory government. The money requested for the scheme is chicken feed in terms of national finances.

 

[John Webb]

Re Luton, I'd agree that it needs work - but presumably with the development of the nearby Luton Airport Parkway station, the 'powers that be' feel Luton has had it's share?
Has the new station had any effect on the numbers using Luton, by the way?

 

[asylumxl]

Re Luton, I'd agree that it needs work - but presumably with the development of the nearby Luton Airport Parkway station, the 'powers that be' feel Luton has had it's share?
Has the new station had any effect on the numbers using Luton, by the way?

The new station was opened in 1999. It'll 17 years old in November. I'm not sure it's a new station anymore.

The main problem with Luton Airport Parkway is it's pretty poorly served by other modes of public transport and has less parking available than Luton, hence most people continue to use Luton instead. It isn't even that close to the airport it serves.

While the opening of an entrance on the Kimpton Road side has helped public transport matters slightly, with the A bus running about every 20 minutes and the 100 every hour, that's still less than ideal. For comparison, many areas have local buses every 10 minutes to Luton station or somewhere in its vicinity.

Also, despite its relative newness compared to other stations, Parkways lifts are often out of use, the footbridge has developed leaks, the cladding is grubby and there's paint peeling off the handrails etc.

There is a lot more that can be said about Parkway, but either way the continued under investment in Luton station is becoming hard for various parties to ignore and is something that needs to be addressed soon. To their credit, MP Gavin Shuker and MP Kelvin Hopkins (whom both use the station regularly) have put a great deal of effort in to trying to give Luton a central station that is fit for purpose.

 

[Abpj17]

The airport station has some commuter traffic (I tend to travel outside that tho so hard to judge personally), it's busy with airport passengers tho. In that time tho, population of Luton continues to grow (10% in ten years) as does the airport use (expected to double from 9 to 18 mn over next 15 years).

As you say, even Parkway isn't in the best state anymore. But the main station is pretty awful (see above re: windows falling out...leaks).

Shaker was vocal in the thing I linked but I'm not overly familiar with him. Kelvin has been a stalwart supporter of better transport for years now (and shares the pain of the service with the rest of us and has done so for many years).

The other question would be who actually funded the Parkway station. I'd be surprised if the airport didn't contribute from their budget (albeit, from memory the airport is owned by the local council rather than BAA etc. like other airports). In any case, it's about to get busier - they're building 650 homes and premises for 2000 new jobs just over the road from airport parkway (hence the new entrance).

And the universities in Luton and Bedford merged a few years ago (more passenger traffic between the two towns). The Herts. equivalent has the uno buses for inter-campus travel.