‘Driver’ isn’t the only job on the railway

[PudseyBearHST]

In my dealings with with ORR and RAIB in the past it seems to be a mixture. I’ve met some who have very impressive railway experience but also a few who have come from outside the industry, for example an ORR Inspector who was in his first job after graduating and a RAIB Investigator who came from the nuclear industry.

Thanks for the reply, do you know much about what the job entails and what their salary is? Would you say railway workers are better off trying to get into management/operations management with a TOC/FOC rather than the ORR/RAIB?
I just realised that it’s unlikely you’d be able to maintain your driving competency if not employed directly by a TOC/FOC.

 

[Stigy]

Thanks for the reply, do you know much about what the job entails and what their salary is? Would you say railway workers are better off trying to get into management/operations management with a TOC/FOC rather than the ORR/RAIB?
I just realised that it’s unlikely you’d be able to maintain your driving competency if not employed directly by a TOC/FOC.

RAIB were advertising not long ago for inspectors of rail accidents and the salary was around £74k I believe. I haven’t looked too far in to what grades they have within RAIB, but this seems to be the bread and butter sort of role. They have bases at Farnborough (hants) and Doncaster (I think?).

From reading the person spec, they look for degree educated people or people with vast railway operational management experience.

 

[PudseyBearHST]

RAIB were advertising not long ago for inspectors of rail accidents and the salary was around £74k I believe. I haven’t looked too far in to what grades they have within RAIB, but this seems to be the bread and butter sort of role. They have bases at Farnborough (hants) and Doncaster (I think?).

From reading the person spec, they look for degree educated people or people with vast railway operational management experience.

Thanks a lot Stigy.

 

[PupCuff]

RAIB were advertising not long ago for inspectors of rail accidents and the salary was around £74k I believe. I haven’t looked too far in to what grades they have within RAIB, but this seems to be the bread and butter sort of role. They have bases at Farnborough (hants) and Doncaster (I think?).

From reading the person spec, they look for degree educated people or people with vast railway operational management experience.

Derby and Farnborough for RAIB. Been tempted to apply there myself, maybe in a few years when I've got sick of a long commute and I don't mind giving up the staff travel heh.



Problem a lot of Drivers find is that when they look at the amount they'd have to give up salary-wise to move into management grade roles they elect to stay where they are, and they're not going to develop the skills they need to be a RAIB inspector in the drivers seat. No doubt some Drivers have a passion for it and don't mind moving into a Driver Manager or Ops Standards role which may require a pay cut for some time until (if) they're able to move into a role such as one with RAIB. But it's far from the norm as I'm sure a lot of industry colleagues will attest.

I would suggest that someone who wanted to work for RAIB should look for a management role within a TOC/FOC first and develop those skills. Investigating train accidents isn't just x should have done y but did z, write a report about it - it's z happened, now let's establish how to get the best evidence out of x, is x's evidence accurate and can I substantiate that with something else, how can I establish what factors actually led them to do z rather than y, what holes were there in the wider culture and processes that led to those thought processes being made and what evidence can we obtain to be confident of that assertion, how can I suggest improvements in a way that is realistically implementable and not immediately dismissed as fanciful, too costly, etc.

If a Driver did want to take that step into work like that then a chat with your nearest friendly DTM or ops standards type person should elicit some advice for your TOC. I know certainly a few have schemes where staff can be released from duty for a day to shadow another department to learn a bit about what they do, there might be opportunities for in house training that a DTM could suggest to help upskill drivers who want to move into management.

 

[387star]

Derby and Farnborough for RAIB. Been tempted to apply there myself, maybe in a few years when I've got sick of a long commute and I don't mind giving up the staff travel heh.



Problem a lot of Drivers find is that when they look at the amount they'd have to give up salary-wise to move into management grade roles they elect to stay where they are, and they're not going to develop the skills they need to be a RAIB inspector in the drivers seat. No doubt some Drivers have a passion for it and don't mind moving into a Driver Manager or Ops Standards role which may require a pay cut for some time until (if) they're able to move into a role such as one with RAIB. But it's far from the norm as I'm sure a lot of industry colleagues will attest.

I would suggest that someone who wanted to work for RAIB should look for a management role within a TOC/FOC first and develop those skills. Investigating train accidents isn't just x should have done y but did z, write a report about it - it's z happened, now let's establish how to get the best evidence out of x, is x's evidence accurate and can I substantiate that with something else, how can I establish what factors actually led them to do z rather than y, what holes were there in the wider culture and processes that led to those thought processes being made and what evidence can we obtain to be confident of that assertion, how can I suggest improvements in a way that is realistically implementable and not immediately dismissed as fanciful, too costly, etc.

If a Driver did want to take that step into work like that then a chat with your nearest friendly DTM or ops standards type person should elicit some advice for your TOC. I know certainly a few have schemes where staff can be released from duty for a day to shadow another department to learn a bit about what they do, there might be opportunities for in house training that a DTM could suggest to help upskill drivers who want to move into management.

A Driver who qualified only five years ago is now a DM so you can make the move quickly. They were very bored driving trains and would keep telling you how bored they were. If they get 'bored' of this role where next?!

If someone wants a customer facing role then there's roles available in banks, post offices and similar places and I would presume people who are jobless who are applying for ticket office clerk roles would also be applying for the customer service roles in those other places. It's also likely to be easier to find a local non-rail one than a local rail one. I think if you're the only ticket office clerk on duty then in the current lockdown situation you may be sitting there for a long time without talking to anyone, especially if you're on duty on a Sunday.

What's the most similar role to a train driver outside the rail industry? Presumably a bus driver for those working on local trains and a coach driver for those working long distance trains. So perhaps not surprising people want to ask questions about the train driver positions as many of the features of a train driver role won't apply to bus and coach drivers. The difference is even greater for pilots.

Perhaps the surprising thing is people are apparently asking about cabin crew roles in aviation but not conductor roles on trains when they are similar roles combining passenger safety and customer service.

I wonder whether the development of regional signalling centres will make signaler's jobs more attractive. I feel it's making it more like an air traffic controller's role than a traditional signaler's role and from what I've heard trainee air traffic controller roles attract hundreds of applicants, despite only being available in a limited number of locations.

Oddly there aren't many ex bus drivers that I know of in the grade. I think many bus drivers would struggle to make it into the rail industry and are probably shocked at how much harder it is to join compared to the bus industry. Even Bus Driver to Guard is a massive pay rise. I imagine bus drivers are very jealous of Train Drivers! That said Bus Drivers are vastly underpaid and it is certainly a challenging and important role. Bus deregulation by Thatcher no doubt made things more precarious. Interestingly South West Trains made a load of Train Drivers redundant in the mid 90s with their Bus industry mentality only to offer them jobs back!

 

[philly1001]

Problem a lot of Drivers find is that when they look at the amount they'd have to give up salary-wise to move into management grade roles they elect to stay where they are, and they're not going to develop the skills they need to be a RAIB inspector in the drivers seat. No doubt some Drivers have a passion for it and don't mind moving into a Driver Manager or Ops Standards role which may require a pay cut for some time until (if) they're able to move into a role such as one with RAIB. But it's far from the norm as I'm sure a lot of industry colleagues will attest.

I would suggest that someone who wanted to work for RAIB should look for a management role within a TOC/FOC first and develop those skills. Investigating train accidents isn't just x should have done y but did z, write a report about it - it's z happened, now let's establish how to get the best evidence out of x, is x's evidence accurate and can I substantiate that with something else, how can I establish what factors actually led them to do z rather than y, what holes were there in the wider culture and processes that led to those thought processes being made and what evidence can we obtain to be confident of that assertion, how can I suggest improvements in a way that is realistically implementable and not immediately dismissed as fanciful, too costly, etc.

A couple of RAIB ones i know havent driven at all. One had a contracting health and safety background and the other from a Ops position with a TOC. They joined on a junior investigative role but were still making more than some driver wages

 

[Need2]

Oddly there aren't many ex bus drivers that I know of in the grade. I think many bus drivers would struggle to make it into the rail industry

As a driver?
We have 3 at my depot (plus 6 ex police and 3 ex black cabbies)

 

[route101]

Why would Bus Drivers struggle? I see it as a progression route.

 

[bramling]

Why would Bus Drivers struggle? I see it as a progression route.

Different mindset, and a much more gruelling training process.

Not to say that a bus driver *would* struggle, just that one can’t automatically assume they would fly through. I’d say this is borne out by the fact that the rail industry doesn’t have a particularly high number of ex bus drivers.

 

[Joliver]

A Driver who qualified only five years ago is now a DM so you can make the move quickly. They were very bored driving trains and would keep telling you how bored they were. If they get 'bored' of this role where next?!


Oddly there aren't many ex bus drivers that I know of in the grade. I think many bus drivers would struggle to make it into the rail industry and are probably shocked at how much harder it is to join compared to the bus industry. Even Bus Driver to Guard is a massive pay rise. I imagine bus drivers are very jealous of Train Drivers! That said Bus Drivers are vastly underpaid and it is certainly a challenging and important role. Bus deregulation by Thatcher no doubt made things more precarious. Interestingly South West Trains made a load of Train Drivers redundant in the mid 90s with their Bus industry mentality only to offer them jobs back!

Plenty of ex bus drivers at my depot.

 

[PupCuff]

A Driver who qualified only five years ago is now a DM so you can make the move quickly. They were very bored driving trains and would keep telling you how bored they were. If they get 'bored' of this role where next?!

I think moving around jobs frequently is more common these days than it perhaps used to be. My parents, for instance, have remained pretty much doing the same job (through restructurings, transfers of undertakings etc) for the last 30 years. Whereas people of my generation, I can't think of any one of my good friends off the top of my head who've stayed in one job for more than about 3 or 4 years before either taking a step up or moving to do something different for a while.

From Driver Manager, there's options for taking a step up to be a higher level of management, eg managing the DTMs. Or, managing the training of new drivers, managing another part of the business, eg the control, going into project work, safety or ops standards type jobs. Or even the same job, just at another TOC. It's a big railway, there's lots of room for people to move about and progress.

 

[Stigy]

I think moving around jobs frequently is more common these days than it perhaps used to be. My parents, for instance, have remained pretty much doing the same job (through restructurings, transfers of undertakings etc) for the last 30 years. Whereas people of my generation, I can't think of any one of my good friends off the top of my head who've stayed in one job for more than about 3 or 4 years before either taking a step up or moving to do something different for a while.

From Driver Manager, there's options for taking a step up to be a higher level of management, eg managing the DTMs. Or, managing the training of new drivers, managing another part of the business, eg the control, going into project work, safety or ops standards type jobs. Or even the same job, just at another TOC. It's a big railway, there's lots of room for people to move about and progress.

Indeed. Certainly from a railway point of view, those looking who are career orientated tend not to stick at one management job for more than a couple of years or so. It’s getting in to management in the first place that tends to be the hardest part. If you want to go that way, there’s opportunities available, and once you build up a decent network of contacts, moving about becomes easier. Even sideways steps to get in to (eventually) higher grade jobs is commonplace.

 

[scotraildriver]

Different mindset, and a much more gruelling training process.

Not to say that a bus driver *would* struggle, just that one can’t automatically assume they would fly through. I’d say this is borne out by the fact that the rail industry doesn’t have a particularly high number of ex bus drivers.

As someone who tried bus driving very early in my life I have to totally disagree with this. Whilst there is no argument that train drivers undergo far more training, and have to carry a huge amount of underpinned knowledge for the"what ifs", on a good "normal" day bus driving is by far the much more difficult and stressful job. Driving a large (in my experience poorly maintained) vehicle through busy streets having your wits about you all the time with some wild road users, trying not to knock down wayward pedestrians, dealing with (some) awful passengers, relentless management pressure for timekeeping, far far far worse shifts than a train driver, far inferior working environment , unpaid breaks, split 12 hour shifts and constant complaints from passengers all for a pittance of what a train driver earns. Its by no means an easy job. Not by a long shot.

 

[bramling]

As someone who tried bus driving very early in my life I have to totally disagree with this. Whilst there is no argument that train drivers undergo far more training, and have to carry a huge amount of underpinned knowledge for the"what ifs", on a good "normal" day bus driving is by far the much more difficult and stressful job. Driving a large (in my experience poorly maintained) vehicle through busy streets having your wits about you all the time with some wild road users, trying not to knock down wayward pedestrians, dealing with (some) awful passengers, relentless management pressure for timekeeping, far far far worse shifts than a train driver, far inferior working environment , unpaid breaks, split 12 hour shifts and constant complaints from passengers all for a pittance of what a train driver earns. Its by no means an easy job. Not by a long shot.

I wasn’t saying that bus driver is any less demanding than train driver, just that it requires a completely different set of skills, hence why there isn’t as much crossover between the two as might outwardly be expected.

As you say, train driving is pretty easy most of the time. It’s that little bit of the time when it isn’t that train drivers attract their money for. By contrast bus driving is no doubt more difficult for most of the time. Some people simply don’t have the right mindset to undergo the length of classroom training required for train driving.

 

[scotraildriver]

I wasn’t saying that bus driver is any less demanding than train driver, just that it requires a completely different set of skills, hence why there isn’t as much crossover between the two as might outwardly be expected.

As you say, train driving is pretty easy most of the time. It’s that little bit of the time when it isn’t that train drivers attract their money for. By contrast bus driving is no doubt more difficult for most of the time. Some people simply don’t have the right mindset to undergo the length of classroom training required for train driving.

Given that we have ex posties, caretakers, car salesmen, Tesco, lidl managers, military, cabin crew, driving instructors, bus drivers and everything else in between I'm not sure why you think bus drivers in particular wouldn't be a good fit?

 

[bramling]

Given that we have ex posties, caretakers, car salesmen, Tesco, lidl managers, military, cabin crew, driving instructors, bus drivers and everything else in between I'm not sure why you think bus drivers in particular wouldn't be a good fit?

I didn’t say it wasn’t a good fit, just that it isn’t *automatically* a good fit. Hence why there doesn’t appear to be a natural line of progression from one to the other.

I can barely think of anyone at my place who is ex buses (though to be fair I can think of two, both of whom are amongst the best train drivers). I think it’s more about having the right mindset.

 

[DriverEight]

I think people from all walks of life have something to bring to the table. I have precisely zero customer service experience, but 30 years as a continental truck driver has given me an ability to sit alone and stare forward that many would struggle to match. A national express coach driver would combine the two, so that kind of bus driver should be a natural fit as a train driver

 

[Horizon22]

20k Difference in the control room at my work. (FOC) 27k-35k going rate for controllers. £55k minimum for qualified drivers

That's quite an extreme difference and I think reflects on the nature of freight work. I doubt many TOCs are that extreme.

NR controllers are usually £50k+ basic, IIRC.

TOC controllers (in the South anyway) would normally be on at least £40K+

 

[Liveforeverman]

I’ve been trying to get into the railway industry for a few years now. I have a strong 17 yr engineering background in gas and central heating which pays Me around 40K + overtime when I want it. I am really open to listen to suggestions of what might be my best way into the industry without an initial big drop in wage. Im not arrogant enough to feel I can just waltz in and demand 40k a year but I’m really keen to explore all opportunity’s and suggestions from other members vast experience on here. Im Not afraid to try any roles suggested but I do need to earn enough to still support my family through a career change. I live just outside of North London.

thanks and I appreciate any response in advance

 

[Heatonmdd]

I can only really speak on behalf of the role of Driver, but it is impossible to be paid a salary of around 40k while training in the early stages. My own TOC pays around 40k after the first year (then increases over several years). So I suppose you may have to have build up some savings to live off for that period ( if driving is the career you had possibly in mind)

However, I think there are depot jobs (engineering focused such as fitter) that can pay 40k+ on joining the role.

 

[Stigy]

I can only really speak on behalf of the role of Driver, but it is impossible to be paid a salary of around 40k while training in the early stages. My own TOC pays around 40k after the first year (then increases over several years). So I suppose you may have to have build up some savings to live off for that period ( if driving is the career you had possibly in mind)

However, I think there are depot jobs (engineering focused such as fitter) that can pay 40k+ on joining the role.

A lot of Shunter roles start at around £30k but with enhancements and the odd few days overtime here and there can easily achieve £40k plus, too.

 

[Liveforeverman]

I can only really speak on behalf of the role of Driver, but it is impossible to be paid a salary of around 40k while training in the early stages. My own TOC pays around 40k after the first year (then increases over several years). So I suppose you may have to have build up some savings to live off for that period ( if driving is the career you had possibly in mind)

However, I think there are depot jobs (engineering focused such as fitter) that can pay 40k+ on joining the role.

Thanks for your reply, I’ve applied For 2 trainee train driver roles and still waiting to hear back from one of them so fingers crossed for that. I’d be happy to drop a little in salary if it meant I could progress in the near future. A lot of the fitter or signalling roles I’ve found ask for previous rail experience so I’ve never bothered applying, I’m still staying optimistic though that something comes along.

A lot of Shunter roles start at around £30k but with enhancements and the odd few days overtime here and there can easily achieve £40k plus, too.

Thanks, I’ll keep an eye out for those. Do they require previous rail experience?

 

[philly1001]

I can only really speak on behalf of the role of Driver, but it is impossible to be paid a salary of around 40k while training in the early stages. My own TOC pays around 40k after the first year (then increases over several years). So I suppose you may have to have build up some savings to live off for that period ( if driving is the career you had possibly in mind)

However, I think there are depot jobs (engineering focused such as fitter) that can pay 40k+ on joining the role.

Most TOCS down south have really competitive salaries across all departments. Jobs in HR and Perfomance all usually attract anything up to 40k as a starting salary.
Even NR TDA`s are on that as a starting salary and that is considered by some as an entry into railway type of job

 

[Geeves]

No question that driver is the dream that the majority would like to reach (I've been to Doncaster and was not successful), but never let it be said that other jobs on the railway are not as rewarding or well paid. I am on a 4 day week now with 23:30 being the latest finish and 05:45 the earliest. Easy life!

 

[Stigy]

Thanks, I’ll keep an eye out for those. Do they require previous rail experience?

No, you can join with no railway experience in the same way you can for Trainee Guard and Driver jobs. Also some Shunters are also Depot Drivers, which tend to attract higher salaries still. Depot Driver is another role you can join with no railway experience and is usually classed as a driver grade, the same as mainline driver is, so it’s a really good step to eventually going mainline.

Although not as competitive as Trainee Driver roles, these roles do also tend to attract a high number of applicants, so the aim of the game is to keep trying if you’re unsuccessful a few times.

 

[nom de guerre]

Most TOCS down south have really competitive salaries across all departments. Jobs in HR and Perfomance all usually attract anything up to 40k as a starting salary.
Even NR TDA`s are on that as a starting salary and that is considered by some as an entry into railway type of job

NR TDAs are Grade 5 (£38K basic).

I’ve been trying to get into the railway industry for a few years now. I have a strong 17 yr engineering background in gas and central heating which pays Me around 40K + overtime when I want it. I am really open to listen to suggestions of what might be my best way into the industry without an initial big drop in wage. Im not arrogant enough to feel I can just waltz in and demand 40k a year but I’m really keen to explore all opportunity’s and suggestions from other members vast experience on here. Im Not afraid to try any roles suggested but I do need to earn enough to still support my family through a career change. I live just outside of North London.

thanks and I appreciate any response in advance

How have you been "trying to get into" the industry?

As far as signalling is concerned, it's eminently possible for an external candidate to start at a grade paying £40K+ basic once fully qualified (i.e. Grade 6 upwards). But there's no magic formula beyond repeatedly applying for jobs, passing the aptitude tests and constantly tweaking/improving your application, and interview technique, as you go.

Once you're a NR employee you'll have access to the internal jobs list, which typically contains many more vacancies than the external equivalent. So there's an argument to be made for taking any signalling job - even grades paying less than your current level - in the short term, then moving on (to a higher grade signalling job, or to other parts of the company).

Good luck.

 

[martin2345uk]

As someone who tried bus driving very early in my life I have to totally disagree with this. Whilst there is no argument that train drivers undergo far more training, and have to carry a huge amount of underpinned knowledge for the"what ifs", on a good "normal" day bus driving is by far the much more difficult and stressful job. Driving a large (in my experience poorly maintained) vehicle through busy streets having your wits about you all the time with some wild road users, trying not to knock down wayward pedestrians, dealing with (some) awful passengers, relentless management pressure for timekeeping, far far far worse shifts than a train driver, far inferior working environment , unpaid breaks, split 12 hour shifts and constant complaints from passengers all for a pittance of what a train driver earns. Its by no means an easy job. Not by a long shot.

As a train driver, I definitely don't think I would have what it takes to be a bus driver!

 

[TeaTrain]

I can only really speak on behalf of the role of Driver, but it is impossible to be paid a salary of around 40k while training in the early stages. My own TOC pays around 40k after the first year (then increases over several years). So I suppose you may have to have build up some savings to live off for that period ( if driving is the career you had possibly in mind)

However, I think there are depot jobs (engineering focused such as fitter) that can pay 40k+ on joining the role.

TPE pay full wage £58k basic to trainees after 8 weeks. That’s from the start date. There is no increments.
I’m not sure if other TOC Drivers do it this way but they do at TPE.

Edit: I know this because I am one of them.

 

[20atthemagnet]

As someone who tried bus driving very early in my life I have to totally disagree with this. Whilst there is no argument that train drivers undergo far more training, and have to carry a huge amount of underpinned knowledge for the"what ifs", on a good "normal" day bus driving is by far the much more difficult and stressful job. Driving a large (in my experience poorly maintained) vehicle through busy streets having your wits about you all the time with some wild road users, trying not to knock down wayward pedestrians, dealing with (some) awful passengers, relentless management pressure for timekeeping, far far far worse shifts than a train driver, far inferior working environment , unpaid breaks, split 12 hour shifts and constant complaints from passengers all for a pittance of what a train driver earns. Its by no means an easy job. Not by a long shot.

I think the point they are trying to make is in relation the comment he/she is replying to. It is not deemed as an 'official' progression from bus to train. There is nothing transferable on paper from one role to another in the same way like a depot driver to a mainline driver. A bus driver starts his/her railway journey the same as someone stacking shelves from Tesco, albeit in probably a better position to understand what the role will entail.

 

[Heatonmdd]

TPE pay full wage £58k basic to trainees after 8 weeks. That’s from the start date. There is no increments.
I’m not sure if other TOC Drivers do it this way but they do at TPE.

Edit: I know this because I am one of them.

Yes, I forgot about TPE being an exception to the rule.