“Scotlands best ever railway”

[Highland37]

I don't want to shut it. I want to enhance it. E.g., I would have welded rail whole way. HML needs electrification also. I am quite happy to see cuts to other areas to pay for this.

 

[cf111]

Well my first train journey of 2019 will have to be postponed as the 1208 Kyle-Inverness has been cancelled due to a lack of train crew. I did toy with the idea of waiting for the 1346 but there isn't much to do in Kyle at the best of times never mind in the middle of January!

 

[Highland37]

Were you going just to go on the train?

 

[cf111]

Were you going just to go on the train?

No, on my way to Glasgow and thought I'd take the Citylink 916 as far as Kyle then change on the train for a change. Its a bit roundabout but I can't cope on the bus for the full Portree-Glasgow trek!

In fairness they had the cancellation on JourneyCheck when I checked last night so I could have got the 917 to Inverness at 9 this morning if I had wanted to. Did also think about going as far as Fort William on the bus and getting the train from there but it would have cost a bit more.

 

[68000]

To offer the defence of if only Scottish government had control of the tracks from Westminster really should not get any credibility. The Alliance has all it needs by way of powers as it is .
Its not like TS/Scot Gov has not got form for poor decisions. Serco Sleeper , delayed still. Calmac Ferries etc. And that's just Transport. Cant keep blaming London for your own decisions . Man up and take your share of the blame Scot Gov! Unlikely tho !

Please explain why that has no credibility

Your posts are increasing turning to a party polical broadcast

 

[Mingulay]

Please explain why that has no credibility

Your posts are increasing turning to a party polical broadcast

I am always at pains to be critical of all parties, all politicians. But it is the present Government that inevitably gets the flak .

The article in Scotland on Sunday referred to above does state the current woes are more to do with rolling stock choices and SG claims that they have insufficient control over track and Network rail, was hollow claim. Cant blame lack of powers for a whole range of issues which are facing us in transport and other areas of Government which are not relevant to this forum

Its very hard not to avoid politics in Rail as its politicised. The Scottish Government clearly make statement after statement on it. They claim to have influence and control over Abellio . They selected Abellio.

 

[68000]

That does not explain why it has no credibility (some hack said it is not you explaining the reasons)

 

[Mingulay]

That does not explain why it has no credibility (some hack said it is not you explaining the reasons)

Is the choice and spec of new trains down to Network rail and not devolved to Scotland ? Ditto HST decision nothing to do with the control of track? Staffing levels in Scotrail ? Dirty Trains not down to Network Rail.

The Scotrail Alliance is portrayed as one .

The notion if Scot Gov had yet more powers and all would be well or better on the Railway does seem a tad fanciful with respect .

Do you feel the Scottish Government has no responsibility or accountability in the choices they make?

 

[Highland37]

Its very hard not to avoid politics in Rail as its politicised.

Yes all subjects are but you often go much further with vague insinuations which are your own opinion or have no basis in fact. As an example I would cite your continual posting about "business people" being involved in politics and the wonderful effect this would have in your mind. I don't think that has even the vaguest of connections to Scotrail and even if it did, there is nothing stopping them entering politics.

Scotrail doesn't have its problems to seek. I have just booked a coach for 36 children to avoid using them. Posting things that have no basis in fact just makes things worse.

 

[mcmad]

The Scottish Government has, by most practical measures, control of Network Rail in Scotland. The arguments around what controls are reserved to Westminster are mainly about being able to nationalise the franchise, nothing to do with Network Rail which is already nationalised.

 

[Highland37]

The Scottish Government has, by most practical measures, control of Network Rail in Scotland. The arguments around what controls are reserved to Westminster are mainly about being able to nationalise the franchise, nothing to do with Network Rail which is already nationalised.

What powers, exactly, does it not have which are held at Westminster?

Just saying "effectively" or "by most practical measures" is imprecise and doesn't actually address the issue.

 

[ian1944]

Well my first train journey of 2019 will have to be postponed as the 1208 Kyle-Inverness has been cancelled due to a lack of train crew. I did toy with the idea of waiting for the 1346 but there isn't much to do in Kyle at the best of times never mind in the middle of January!

As an aside, some time ago I was on a railtour from NB to Kyle on a rainy day, with more than an hour before the return started. What seemed to be the only tearoom was full with more standing waiting, and the only alternative source of food seemed to be the Co-op. Fortunately, by the time some ready-made sandwiches had been bought it was at least dry, so walking back to the station and watching the loco run round was done in reasonable comfort.

Pre-bridge, under similar circumstances a round trip on the ferry provided shelter and interest.

 

[Mingulay]

Yes all subjects are but you often go much further with vague insinuations which are your own opinion or have no basis in fact. As an example I would cite your continual posting about "business people" being involved in politics and the wonderful effect this would have in your mind. I don't think that has even the vaguest of connections to Scotrail and even if it did, there is nothing stopping them entering politics.

Scotrail doesn't have its problems to seek. I have just booked a coach for 36 children to avoid using them. Posting things that have no basis in fact just makes things worse.

I would hope we could all agree that career politicians, which are now the norm in all parties, who have little or no experience from University in a working environment or a proven track record in business or other walks of life, does not make for ministers with a natural ability to see the complexities and risks of commercial contracts . If the guidance they are given by advisors is not comparable to suppliers they are dealing with , then its not hard to see mistakes will be made. I dont want to see The public sector be hoodwinked by the private sector. We all have a stake in a good public services . But yes in a sense I agree with you , we need to raise the bar of those entering our politics . I am underwhelmed by what we have in Scotland and in Westminster.

 

[backontrack]

Yes it would. A massive difference. Briefly, the lack of alternative transport, the fact that the locals who use it are quite vocal, the railhead it provides right up through Sutherland, Caithness, Easter Ross etc., the linking buses to various settlements from stations (like Lairg), the links it provides beyond to Orkney and Shetland from its links to Scrabster, etc., etc., etc. @backontrack will provide more. The reason more people don't use it is because not enough is being invested to make the service reasonable or reliable. Previous service improvements have been met with big passenger rises.

What is it with this forum and wanting to shut the Far North Line? The north of Scotland needs stuff too y'know!

I have to agree with Felix here. There is no case for closing the Far North Line.

The line is part of the main route to Orkney via public transport, more so than the route via Aberdeen or the X99 coach. It serves the commuter towns in the south and tourist destinations in the north - as well as communities that need a service further north. The likes of Lairg, Golspie, Brora and Helmsdale aren't insignificant - we're not talking about places like Tonfanau and Talsarnau here! - and people use the line to reach Inverness and the Central Belt, and the towns to the north and south. Then there's the Forsinard Flows RSPB site NC500 tourist route, bringing more and more people to the increasingly-crowded roads. The railway has a part to play in all this - it's more scenic than the road and more comfortable and enjoyable than driving, you can get a coffee en route, you can get a table, you can charge your phone. "Yes but the coach is quicker" - yes, but the train could be quicker. The fact that it doesn't beat the infrequent and inadequate coach service at present is absolutely no ground for arguing towards the closure of the FNL, especially now that the coach serves every man and every woman and all of their dogs in Easter Ross and in Caithness now, presumably because Stagecoach North Scotland felt that they'd managed to take enough custom away from the railway (and because of Mark 'Cutlocks' Whitelocks, who's now left the firm).

Low usage is definitely due to the fact that the service has been getting worse and worse for years - culminating in several severed connections, only one of which has been reinstated - due to staffing issues at Wick and the simple problem of single track. With the Lentran Loop and a loop at Kinbrace, the service could be so, so much more reliable. It's holding the line back enormously. And there is definitely a case for these projects to be included in CP6, starting with the Lentran Loop.

Conon Bridge has been the one bright spot in this - but, even then, the station can't live up to its potential because the service isn't good enough. There have been issues time and time again; Ross-shire stops get skipped out, Thurso gets bustituted from Georgemas owing to delays, services terminate at Helmsdale with passengers being bussed on to Thurso and Wick. Alness - the largest town in Easter Ross - lost its connection onto the southbound Highland Sleeper several years ago. Things like this hardly encourage better usage when the service is so rife with delays, missed connections, cancellations and inconveniences - and there is DEFINITELY both cause for and scope for great improvement.

I'd like to see this service in the future:

1tph Inverness - Beauly - Muir of Ord - Conon Bridge - Dingwall - Evanton - Alness - Invergordon - Fearn - Tain
1tp2h Inverness - Muir of Ord - Dingwall - Alness - Invergordon - Tain - Ardgay - Invershin - Lairg - Rogart - Golspie - Dunrobin Castle - Brora - Helmsdale - Kinbrace - Forsinard - Halkirk - Thurso - Georgemas - Wick (occasional stops at Culrain/Kildonan/Altnabreac/Scotscalder if they haven't been shut by then)
1tp2h Inverness - Muir of Ord - Dingwall - Garve - Lochluichart - Achanalt - Achnasheen - Achnashellach - Strathcarron - Attadale - Stromeferry - Duncraig - Plockton - Duirinish - Kyle of Lochalsh

A loop at Lentran, a loop at Kinbrace, a chord at Georgemas, a station at Evanton and a station at Halkirk...and that becomes possible. But really we only need Lentran and Kinbrace.

THE LENTRAN LOOP MUST BE BUILT.

 

[mcmad]

What powers, exactly, does it not have which are held at Westminster?

Just saying "effectively" or "by most practical measures" is imprecise and doesn't actually address the issue.

I don't believe that there are any powers held by Westminster that would change the railways in Scotland which is the point I was making in response to the arguments up thread that everything would be rosy if only SG fully controlled NR.

 

[mcmad]

Things like this hardly encourage better usage when the service is so rife with delays, missed connections, cancellations and inconveniences - and there is DEFINITELY both cause for and scope for great improvement.

I'd like to see this service in the future:

1tph Inverness - Beauly - Muir of Ord - Conon Bridge - Dingwall - Evanton - Alness - Invergordon - Fearn - Tain
1tp2h Inverness - Muir of Ord - Dingwall - Alness - Invergordon - Tain - Ardgay - Invershin - Lairg - Rogart - Golspie - Dunrobin Castle - Brora - Helmsdale - Kinbrace - Forsinard - Halkirk - Thurso - Georgemas - Wick (occasional stops at Culrain/Kildonan/Altnabreac/Scotscalder if they haven't been shut by then)
1tp2h Inverness - Muir of Ord - Dingwall - Garve - Lochluichart - Achanalt - Achnasheen - Achnashellach - Strathcarron - Attadale - Stromeferry - Duncraig - Plockton - Duirinish - Kyle of Lochalsh

A loop at Lentran, a loop at Kinbrace, a chord at Georgemas, a station at Evanton and a station at Halkirk...and that becomes possible. But really we only need Lentran and Kinbrace.

THE LENTRAN LOOP MUST BE BUILT.

So how much would this wish list of infrastructure and service improvements to cost, both to implement and increased running costs and what would be the financial benefit resulting for it?

It's all very well saying this or that must be built but if there is no business case for building it then any promoters are going to struggle to get through the investment process at TS.

 

[68000]

Is the choice and spec of new trains down to Network rail and not devolved to Scotland ? Ditto HST decision nothing to do with the control of track? Staffing levels in Scotrail ? Dirty Trains not down to Network Rail.

The Scotrail Alliance is portrayed as one .

The notion if Scot Gov had yet more powers and all would be well or better on the Railway does seem a tad fanciful with respect .

Do you feel the Scottish Government has no responsibility or accountability in the choices they make?

You were referring to infrastructure earlier and now you talk about the rolling stock in the same breath

You give the DfT a free pass and slate TS at every opportunity. I am not claiming everything will be rosy if TS got NR devolved to it but only then can it be reasonable to blame TS rather than the DfT for the infrastructure issues. You blithely ignore this to stick the boot into ScotRail and by extenstion TS - did they reject you when you applied for a job a number of years ago?

With regards to the last question, of course TS have to take responsibility for their decisions but it is you who wants them to take responibility and accountability for things they are not responsible or accountable for

 

[68000]

The Scottish Government has, by most practical measures, control of Network Rail in Scotland. The arguments around what controls are reserved to Westminster are mainly about being able to nationalise the franchise, nothing to do with Network Rail which is already nationalised.

The Scottish Governement do not have powers over Network Rail Scotland, they have influence. The buck stops with Grayling and the DfT

 

[mcmad]

The Scottish Governement do not have powers over Network Rail Scotland, they have influence. The buck stops with Grayling and the DfT

What powers don't SG have over Network Rail in Scotland? they set the budget and therefore set what should be delivered.

 

[backontrack]

It's all very well saying this or that must be built but if there is no business case for building it then any promoters are going to struggle to get through the investment process at TS.

On the contrary: there is definitely a business case for the Lentran Long Loop and for the Kinbrace Loop.

 

[Esker-pades]

So how much would this wish list of infrastructure and service improvements to cost, both to implement and increased running costs and what would be the financial benefit resulting for it?

It's all very well saying this or that must be built but if there is no business case for building it then any promoters are going to struggle to get through the investment process at TS.

A Lentran Loop means that there could be a clockface timetable to the commuter towns north of Inverness (Dingwall, Tain etc.) which currently get a sporadic service. Previous service improvements have lead to many additional travellers.

There is already a thread for the economic case for the Far North Line here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/economic-case-for-the-far-north-line.167315/ .

 

[Highland37]

I don't believe that there are any powers held by Westminster that would change the railways in Scotland which is the point I was making in response to the arguments up thread that everything would be rosy if only SG fully controlled NR.

Can we just be clear here - you are saying that every power held by the British Government which directly affects railways, is also, with no exception, held by the Scottish Government?

You are saying, that if the Scottish Government wanted to move to another model, including funding and franchising, against the wishes of the British Government, they have all of the powers required and are equal in scope to those held by the British Government, with no exceptions?

 

[Mingulay]

You were referring to infrastructure earlier and now you talk about the rolling stock in the same breath

You give the DfT a free pass and slate TS at every opportunity. I am not claiming everything will be rosy if TS got NR devolved to it but only then can it be reasonable to blame TS rather than the DfT for the infrastructure issues. You blithely ignore this to stick the boot into ScotRail and by extenstion TS - did they reject you when you applied for a job a number of years ago?

With regards to the last question, of course TS have to take responsibility for their decisions but it is you who wants them to take responibility and accountability for things they are not responsible or accountable for

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

I am not giving dft any free pass! Where did that occur?

Never applied for a job or rejected with Scotrail . Silly statement. I am available as a passenger representative or advisor if asked however !

I don't think I'm alone in my views on Scotrail just now and in the last few years. I don't think I'm alone in calling the Scottish government to account for there part or certainly for claiming that if only they had more power things would be better. The card has been overplayed.

As a passenger having put up with a poor service for years and promised better but got worse. Why on earth should I not give Scotrail constructive fair and balanced criticism? A sentiment I hear day in day out from my fellow passengers on my service is overwhelmingly negative . Suggesting I have a personal vendetta against Scotrail and TS is a product of your imagination.

 

[Highland37]

No. There is a huge paradox at the very heart of your argument - you want people to take responsibility but are against them having all of the responsibility. I suggest that it has not been overplayed as you don't want the people in charge to take responsibility. You are effectively arguing against yourself.

 

[Mingulay]

No. There is a huge paradox at the very heart of your argument - you want people to take responsibility but are against them having all of the responsibility. I suggest that it has not been overplayed as you don't want the people in charge to take responsibility. You are effectively arguing against yourself.

Well. Let’s agree to differ. If only not to test the patience of moderators or getting bogged down in a circular debate which will be boring others. . Thank you for your views . I will ponder them.

 

[Highland37]

Again this goes to the heart of the debate. There is no argument. The powers are not equal and regardless of what I or anyone else thinks, Scottish Ministers of a present or future government, don't have full responsibility for the rail network. There is nothing to ponder.

I admire your persistence on this and I too am annoyed at the poor service. I want a decent railway, one equal to other European top performers. But sadly, the UK is a very long way behind in this respect. We must do better!

 

[JohnR]

The Scottish Governement do not have powers over Network Rail Scotland, they have influence. The buck stops with Grayling and the DfT

The DfT do not specify the funding for Network Rail in Scotland. They do not specify the outputs that Network Rail Scotland is to deliver. The DfT does not pay Network Rail Scotland. Network Rail Scotland's borrowing is part of the overall NR debt, and appears on the UK Government balance sheet.

If Transport Scotland wanted Network Rail to improve reliability, say by replacing semaphore signalling, or dualling single line sections of the ECML - or anything, it has the power to both fund these and instruct Network Rail Scotland.

What changes - in a purely practical sense - would "devolving Network Rail Scotland" to the Scottish Government achieve?

 

[cf111]

What changes - in a purely practical sense - would "devolving Network Rail Scotland" to the Scottish Government achieve?

Blessedly stop arguments on here about which set of self-serving alleged parliamentarians deserve the blame?

 

[mcmad]

Can we just be clear here - you are saying that every power held by the British Government which directly affects railways, is also, with no exception, held by the Scottish Government?

You are saying, that if the Scottish Government wanted to move to another model, including funding and franchising, against the wishes of the British Government, they have all of the powers required and are equal in scope to those held by the British Government, with no exceptions?

I'm not even bothering to reply to your posts and have put you on ignore as you continually twist every response to suit your SNP good Westminster Bad viewpoint.

 

[Bodiddly]

The thread is Scotlands best ever railway. It's not watching people poitically attack each others posts. For my tuppence worth, all parties in Scotland have a share of the blame for the state of Scotlands railways so could we leave the political guff out of it?
The Far North line has it's problems, there's no denying that, but the problems have solutions that could improve the line considerably. The Helmsdale to Forsinard section is far too long to run a timetabled service over without the potential for huge delays. It's got a journey time of round about a half hour and if the train from the South is delayed, it usually has to be delayed further in order to wait for the train from Forsinard. The Kinbrace loop would go a long way in cutting down delays. The Lentran loop again, would go some way to alleviate the delays between Beauly and Inverness as would colour light signalling between Inverness and Dingwall.
In other areas, the HST debacle runs on. There should have been upwards of 10 sets running daily and it's no where near this number. I was in Edinburgh the other day heading for the Glasgow train when I noticed the 13.30 to Aberdeen which is diagrammed for the refurb HST was actually a two car 158!
My Glasgow train was a 385, my first experience of one. Fast as a greyhound but those seats! Got off at Falkirk because I fancied a walk down to Camelon to get a Dunblane to Stirling, another 2 car 158, rammed solid!
So, Scotlands best ever railway? Not yet but probably getting there, eventually!