“This train is between” on CIS Displays

[sheff1]

"Expected at xxxx" is little use when, every minute, the expected arrival time moves on a minute.

On the other hand, if a train is "between Doncaster and Conisbrough" I know it will not be in Sheffield for at least 15 mins so plenty of time to grab a coffee/swift half or go to the loo; but if it is between "Meadowhall and Sheffield" it could arrive any minute (it might not, but I won't be risking a visit to the Tap).

 

[3141]

Obviously, all information can become out of date, so whether you're being told that the train is due in X minutes, or that it is between stations Y and Z, new circumstances may intervene and it won't arrive when you expected it to. But I think most passengers - "normal people" as someone has called them - are most interested in the time their train will appear, rather than its current location. They would also like information to be as precise as possible. So, allowing for the possibility that a train may break down, or someone pulls the emergency alarm, or it may be switched to a parallel universe by Martians, the most useful information is that you can expect the train to reach the platform on which you are waiting in 17 or 9 or 2 minutes, or whatever. Being told that it is between two stations is only useful if you know where those stations are and how far away they are. And if the stations are 14 miles apart then any estimate you make of the train's arrival time will have a margin of error of nearly a quarter of an hour. For an enthusiast the location may be highly interesting, but train services are run for the benefit of ordinary passengers, and they want to know when the train is expected, and not have to start working it out.

 

[Techniquest]

I'm sorry but you make it sound like non-enthusiasts know nothing of the network. I would suspect regular non-enthusiast travellers know the stations on their regularly used lines, maybe not all that well, but I know plenty of norms (non-enthusiasts) who know their area reasonably well. Some of them even know roughly how long it takes a train to cover the line between, for example, Ledbury and Hereford.

I don't think anyone's suggesting getting rid of expected arrival times, that's not a sensible idea whatsoever. However, what we are discussing is the benefit (or otherwise) of *additional* information as to the approximate location of the train. As sheff1 says, it's quite handy in certain circumstances to know roughly where the train is, as you can plan your pre-departure at-the-station activities better. Time management is important in this day and age, and the more of the mundane stuff you can get out of the way before the train arrives the better, there's more time on the journey itself to relax/work/get through other stuff that needs doing.

I'm a keen supporter of the 'this train is between X and Y' thing and long may it continue and spread around more of the network!

 

[3141]

I'm sorry but you make it sound like non-enthusiasts know nothing of the network. I would suspect regular non-enthusiast travellers know the stations on their regularly used lines, maybe not all that well, but I know plenty of norms (non-enthusiasts) who know their area reasonably well. Some of them even know roughly how long it takes a train to cover the line between, for example, Ledbury and Hereford.

I don't think anyone's suggesting getting rid of expected arrival times, that's not a sensible idea whatsoever. However, what we are discussing is the benefit (or otherwise) of *additional* information as to the approximate location of the train. As sheff1 says, it's quite handy in certain circumstances to know roughly where the train is, as you can plan your pre-departure at-the-station activities better. Time management is important in this day and age, and the more of the mundane stuff you can get out of the way before the train arrives the better, there's more time on the journey itself to relax/work/get through other stuff that needs doing.

I'm a keen supporter of the 'this train is between X and Y' thing and long may it continue and spread around more of the network!

I don't agree that I "made it sound like non-enthusiasts know nothing about the network", and I don't doubt that many regular travellers know roughly how far away the previous few stations along the line are, but the fact remains that a sign that shows "Due 10.52 Expected 11.01" is more informative to most people than one than tells them the train is between X and Y. It's true that a minute later the Expected time may change to 10.57 or 11.05, but the information about which places the train is between may be equally unreliable. The expected arrival time is clear to understand, whether it turns out to be accurate or not; whereas information about where the train is requires you to know certain facts and do certain calculations, and is therefore not useful to some passengers.

 

[Techniquest]

But it is useful to a lot of people, if not just some of us. So I just don't get why people don't seem to like its existance. Have it in operation along with expected arrival times, simple. Whether it's useful to the individual or not is down to them, I find such information useful and I suspect an awful lot of people do. It's definitely not something only useful to enthusiasts, which is how I read your post.

 

[fusionblue]

I took a train into Cannon Street today, arrived into a platform and its return service was already up on the platform displays. It said "this train is between London Bridge and Cannon Street".

Not entirely accurate.....

 

[Frontera2]

At Charlton in SE London, the display seems to tell you where the train is only if the train is NOT on time. That seems like a helpful middle approach in a metro area.

But equally, if I am at Thirsk waiting for a southbound train due in 50 minutes, I can see that - if that train is between Newcastle and Durham and happens to be 2 minutes late - I am not particularly helped by knowing that it is between Newcastle and Durham. On the other hand, as the due time gets closer, I would be reassured by knowing that it was now between Northallerton and Thirsk.

The functionality uses the “extended comments” part of CIS which has a finite length.

This means that each element of information eg train length, delay reason etc has a “priority” with some information dropping off in favour of another.

On SE we show the status of TfL services on London bound displays in the Metro area. If a train is on time, the TfL Information is deemed as having more value than the location so the latter won’t be shown. If the train was late then the last reported location would be shown and, if there was a delay reason on display as well, the TfL info would be dropped.

 

[Frontera2]

I took a train into Cannon Street today, arrived into a platform and its return service was already up on the platform displays. It said "this train is between London Bridge and Cannon Street".

Not entirely accurate.....

This happens if the signaller or ARS changes the headcode of the inward train to the outbound before it arrives in the platform, thus meaning that Darwin ( which powers the CIS ) won’t know it’s arrived and will report the last known location.

 

[Frontera2]

It lasted about a week and London Bridge before it was binned off again

There was a glitch in the software but it’s definitely working there now.

 

[Frontera2]

But it is useful to a lot of people, if not just some of us. So I just don't get why people don't seem to like its existance. Have it in operation along with expected arrival times, simple. Whether it's useful to the individual or not is down to them, I find such information useful and I suspect an awful lot of people do. It's definitely not something only useful to enthusiasts, which is how I read your post.

For us at SE, it was one of the most powerful and effective innovations in terms of info that we’ve introduced. It massively improves the “believability” factor and passengers ( and staff! ) can now trust the information they are seeing.

It also helps the passenger feel more empowered. For example, at a terminal station where the location of the inbound train is shown, if it’s late but the passenger knows where’s it is, they can make a decision on whether to wait, go and grab a drink or even find an alternative route if that would be quicker for them.

Since introduction this functionality , the number of queries we’ve had on Social Media, for example, querying the information on CIS, has plummeted.

 

[cactustwirly]

You seen the new displays at Didcot, which show a formation diagram instead of the waffle? Bizarre that we've taken until 2019 to get what the Germans had in the early 1990s, though.

Yes, it's a lot better!
We should be aiming for the German CIS layout, maybe they could develop an app like ÖBB's Scotty, which shows your trains position on a map, and get rid of the clutter on the PIS

 

[Frontera2]

Sorry for the multitude of replies on this but as the Manager who introduced the functionality in SE, it’s something I’m particularly proud of, especially the enhancements we’ve added to the original TfL rail incarnation.

Our passengers like it too, as demonstrated by the ( mostly ) positive replies to this post on Twitter:
https://twitter.com/se_railway/status/1045278488184463360?s=21

Another enhancement to this is on the way which will help the “knowledgable” commuter. As well as showing the location of the inbound train, which we do now ( including where it’s not left the depot ) , we will soon show the location of the depot when the train hasn’t yet left.

Eg “This train has not yet left the Depot at Grove Park” - many of SE’s regular passengers actually know the network ( particularly on Metro ) quite well so this will add value to them. After all, saying it’s “not yet left the depot” could mean that the train hasn’t left Slade Green or Tonbridge, quite a bit of difference between the 2!

 

[Techniquest]

I reckon you should be well proud of such a useful function, and for those of us who know the network fairly well things like it still being on the depot is actually very useful! Let's hope it spreads elsewhere on the network

 

[IceAgeComing]

The functionality uses the “extended comments” part of CIS which has a finite length.

This means that each element of information eg train length, delay reason etc has a “priority” with some information dropping off in favour of another.

On SE we show the status of TfL services on London bound displays in the Metro area. If a train is on time, the TfL Information is deemed as having more value than the location so the latter won’t be shown. If the train was late then the last reported location would be shown and, if there was a delay reason on display as well, the TfL info would be dropped.

I'm sure that I've seen the "between xxx and yyy" message when a train has been on time before - although thinking about it its mostly been on trains on the Greenwich/Woolwich line going towards Slade Green/Dartford so I imagine that the case there is that the TfL information isn't overly useful to someone that's going away from the centre of London.

 

[Techniquest]

Come to think of it I've only seen it mentioned on a train originating at Charing Cross when I was at Waterloo East so far. Mind you I wasn't paying attention anywhere else at that time, so I've probably missed it.

I like the idea of the TfL information on London-bound stuff though, that's incredibly handy. Better to be forewarned after all!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

But it is useful to a lot of people, if not just some of us. So I just don't get why people don't seem to like its existance.

It's because of the screen bandwidth it takes up. Personally, I do find the information about where the train is somewhat fascinating. And if there was a way to provide it without detracting from other information, then I'd be perfectly happy with it. But the problem is that, while the screen is saying 'This train is currently between Elmstead Woods and Chislehurst' it's not showing information that is far more useful to most people - such as where the train is stopping at and how long it is etc. I've experienced a couple of occasions where I've arrived on the platform a minute or so before my train is due, and my absolute, urgent, priority is to see how long the train is so that I know whereabouts on the platform to wait for it (there are some stations where if it's an 8 carriage train you need to wait essentially at the opposite end of the platform from if it's a 4-carriage train). And on a couple of these occasions, I've lost several seconds of seeing where I need to wait on the platform because the display is uselessly telling me that my train expected in 1 minute is (surprise!) between the station I'm waiting at, and the previous station. That's the kind of reason why I think you'll find lots of people don't like it.

 

[jon0844]

It's an incredibly useful bit of information when a train is delayed, especially when it's not merely running late (where the time might be accurate) but if there's any incident (PASCOM, passenger ill or a motor fault that means the train is moving, but slower than expected which might throw the ETA).

As already said, if you see your train is miles away then you can feel confident you won't miss the train by getting that coffee or popping out to a shop.

Currently a delayed train might be quite near and when moving again makes up time, so people are more wary.

 

[applepie2100]

Some variations of this have now started appearing on ScotRail CIS screens in the Glasgow area. Some of the ones I've seen so far include "A ScotRail service with 6 carriages. This service departed High Street on time at 17:03" and "Service delayed by congestion caused by earlier delays. A ScotRail service with 6 carriages. This service departed Dalmuir at xx:xx"

On a similar subject we also had the surprise of the remote PA function of the GSM-R being used to apologise for the delay!

 

[samuelmorris]

It's been on TfL Rail for a little while now - in principle I like the idea, though it does add to the already fairly lengthy audio announcements and take up screen space which on the dot matrix displays is already quite limited.

 

[40129]

I don't as yet have any experience of the cis saying where the train is. However, whatever information is shown, it needs to be accurate. Last year I almost missed a train from Chester as it was shown as 15 mins late. I went to the restroom only for the train to arrive whilst I was in full flow