09.47 Leeds To Carlisle

[70014IronDuke]

What runs up Airedale ahead of the 18:19? If it is the first train after the current 17:56 Skipton, it will be rammed - it is already full and standing at 18:06.

There is a 17.50 to Lancaster

see post 79
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=147558&page=6

But there will surely be at least one Skipton electric unit from each of Leeds and Bradford in between the two.

But this is all only proposed so far.

 

[backontrack]

Let's look at usage statistics from 2014/15 - the more recent set are skewed by the line's closure north of Appleby due to flooding.

Armathwaite: 7,786 (shows gradual decline)
Lazonby & Kirkoswald: 15,802 (shows gradual decline)
Langwathby: 22,832 (shows gradual decline
Appleby: 57,078 (shows moderate decline)
Kirkby Stephen West: 29,768 (shows a gradual decline)
Garsdale: 15,614 (very consistent with other recent results - all hovering either above or below)
Dent: 9,054 (shows a gradual decline)
Ribblehead: 19,820 (arrests slight fall in usage from previous figures)
Horton-in-Ribblesdale: 15,656 (usage was declining, but rose slightly this year)
Settle: 148,000 (up by 0.010 million, though there was a decline this year)
Long Preston: 14,328 (up slightly)
Hellifield: 29,490 (up slightly)
Gargrave: 29,176 (up by over 5,000)

From these results, we can paint a picture of the line's usage.

From high to low:

Settle
Appleby
Kirkby Stephen
Hellifield
Gargrave
Langwathby
Ribblehead
Lazonby & Kirkoswald
Horton-in-Ribblesdale
Garsdale
Long Preston
Dent
Armathwaite

 

[Iskra]

But the proposed service is worse than the current one because at present there's effectively an hourley Leeds-Carlisle service at the times most daytrippers wish to travel, with departures at 0849, 0947 and 1049. Three trains spaced 60 minutes apart is surely far better than two trains spaced 90 minutes apart.

A further issue for the leisure market is that most off-peak and rover tickets on the S&C only permit travel after 0845, which make the current 0849 ideal. Unless there's an exemption, it could prove considerably more costly to travel on the proposed 0746.

People travelling for leisure have the luxury of choice of when they travel, those travelling to work are usually significantly less flexible. Thus, it seems sensible to cater for those who can't choose when to travel, leaving those with flexibility to choose from the remaining options.

The S&C is not entirely about leisure, it has to pay its way for the full 12 months of the year, not just weekends, summer and school holidays.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

People travelling for leisure have the luxury of choice of when they travel, those travelling to work are usually significantly less flexible. Thus, it seems sensible to cater for those who can't choose when to travel, leaving those with flexibility to choose from the remaining options.

The S&C is not entirely about leisure, it has to pay its way for the full 12 months of the year, not just weekends, summer and school holidays.

Leisure and commuter travel isn't mutually exclusive; both markets can co-exist on a well-planned timetable. I would even go so far as to suggest the leisure market exceeds the commuter one on the S&C and is also a year round market - people don't stop going out walking or cycling when the clocks go back!

And surely the vast majority of commuters at the Southern end of the line will be commuting into Leeds rather than away from it, which makes the proposed withdrawal of both the 0849 and 0947 even more baffling.

 

[Condor7]

Really? Inconvenience I could understand, but come on, I see toddlers and babies at airports for 06.00 flights whenever I fly out early. They have obviously got up at 04.00 or earlier.

All the new timetable - if indeed it is implemented - requires is your family to go forward ONE hour to catch the 07.47 instead of the 08.47 (or whatever the exact minute number is) - I find it difficult, unless you are editing the Daily Mail, to deem that a 'disaster' or 'nightmare'.

But whatever, every timetable is a compromise, and there will be winners and losers with any change.

Ok I may have overstated the case, but by the time I get back from my Daily Mail job I am tired, and irritable.

I will however refute your argument re airports etc. These are children going on holiday maybe only once in a year, anyone that has done that getting up at the crack of dawn do not do it by choice and most would say that it is the worse part of any holiday. I am talking about them coming up to see us on a frequent basis and the current 08.49 makes that a pleasant start time for a pleasant day out. If you can't see the difference you must be editing the Daily Express.

 

[Iskra]

Leisure and commuter travel isn't mutually exclusive; both markets can co-exist on a well-planned timetable. I would even go so far as to suggest the leisure market exceeds the commuter one on the S&C and is also a year round market - people don't stop going out walking or cycling when the clocks go back!

And surely the vast majority of commuters at the Southern end of the line will be commuting into Leeds rather than away from it, which makes the proposed withdrawal of both the 0849 and 0947 even more baffling.

Agree both should be possible. But if it's not possible to create a perfect timetable, then it should be the locals/workers who are catered for more optimally IMO, not the more flexible leisure travellers, which is not how things have ever been on the S&C in my lifetime.

I really don't agree with you on the leisure market exceeding the commuter/local market, or leisure demand being strong all year round, from my experience it simply isn't there in the winter apart from perhaps the odd hardy soul.

I don't disagree with you on your final point.

 

[yorksrob]

Agree both should be possible. But if it's not possible to create a perfect timetable, then it should be the locals/workers who are catered for more optimally IMO, not the more flexible leisure travellers, which is not how things have ever been on the S&C in my lifetime.

I really don't agree with you on the leisure market exceeding the commuter/local market, or leisure demand being strong all year round, from my experience it simply isn't there in the winter apart from perhaps the odd hardy soul.

I don't disagree with you on your final point.

Generally its local commuters who require services to stop at the smaller intermediate stations rather than running straight through, so they have a lot in common with the ramblers.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Generally its local commuters who require services to stop at the smaller intermediate stations rather than running straight through, so they have a lot in common with the ramblers.

Are there many genuine daily commuters , north of Skipton , let alone Settle. Honest question ?

 

[RichmondCommu]

Are there many genuine daily commuters , north of Skipton , let alone Settle. Honest question ?

Yes. My brother in law lives in Dentdale and commutes into Leeds most weekdays.

 

[xotGD]

Are there many genuine daily commuters , north of Skipton , let alone Settle. Honest question ?

There are quite a number that I see regularly on the 18:06 off Leeds that are travelling beyond Skipton. People also commute into Skipton from further up the line.

 

[yorksrob]

Are there many genuine daily commuters , north of Skipton , let alone Settle. Honest question ?

I was always under the impression that there are some from stations North of Appleby who use the line to commute to Carlisle.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Let's look at usage statistics from 2014/15 - the more recent set are skewed by the line's closure north of Appleby due to flooding.
.......From high to low:

Settle
Appleby
Kirkby Stephen
Hellifield
Gargrave
Langwathby
Ribblehead
Lazonby & Kirkoswald
Horton-in-Ribblesdale
Garsdale
Long Preston
Dent
Armathwaite

Frankly, I doubt any of the S&C stations south of Ribblehead were affected by the flooding. Maybe Settle lost a few passengers, and most of those would have gone via Wennington.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Are there many genuine daily commuters , north of Skipton , let alone Settle. Honest question ?

A good question. I suspect a significant portion of Settle's passenger figures, actually, but would be good to know how many typically board the first up train into Leeds. Some of those, of course, may be going to Skipton/Keighley/Bradford - it's not just Leeds.

And at the northern end, there is definitely a commuting contingent into Carlisle, I've been assured.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Ok I may have overstated the case, but by the time I get back from my Daily Mail job I am tired, and irritable.

I will however refute your argument re airports etc. These are children going on holiday maybe only once in a year, anyone that has done that getting up at the crack of dawn do not do it by choice and most would say that it is the worse part of any holiday. I am talking about them coming up to see us on a frequent basis and the current 08.49 makes that a pleasant start time for a pleasant day out. If you can't see the difference you must be editing the Daily Express.

Of course they do it by choice. Nobody is pointing a gun to their heads. It's just that the alternative - which is, presumably higher fares on more convenient flights - means less dosh for other fun. And if the baby/kids scream, they decide it's worth it.

But yes, I can understand that an 08.49 departure is far more convenient for your folks' trip - with kids - than an 07.49. But then, everyone wants a train at their convenience - a timetable is inherently a compromise. If this new one goes ahead, Northern obviously are assuming an 07.49 departure benefits more people overall.
Personally, I've long thought that Leeds needs a departure in that 07.4x slot to exploit the potential of using the line for long-distance connections at Carlisle. Unfortunately for your family, the following train omits those stops - presumably in an effort to make the 09.12 a bit more attractive in terms of a Carlisle arrival. Think about the positives - on the 07.49, they should arrive at Langwathby around 10.00 - allowing more time for the visit.

Now, I must get back to editing that story about the two-headed talking donkey seen on Scarborough beach last night just after closing time.

 

[trainmananthon]

A good question. I suspect a significant portion of Settle's passenger figures, actually, but would be good to know how many typically board the first up train into Leeds. Some of those, of course, may be going to Skipton/Keighley/Bradford - it's not just Leeds.

And at the northern end, there is definitely a commuting contingent into Carlisle, I've been assured.

There are quite a few commuters that use the first Up train out of Settle, enough so to warrant us putting out a large flask of coffee for them to help themselves to.

 

[Condor7]

Now, I must get back to editing that story about the two-headed talking donkey seen on Scarborough beach last night just after closing time.

Yes I'm doing one on a vicar that wears women's underwear while giving his sermons.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

What does an infrequent service with apparently random calling patterns actually achieve for the passenger? Confusion, stress, missed trains, long waits when the next train doesn't call at your particular station - all ultimately a deterrence to future travel.

I'm with the other posters on this point - an express service should overlay an adequate local timetable, not replace it. A proper, regular, all stations service should be provided first - whether, in the case of both Carlisle and Lancaster lines out of Skipton, that should be hourly or two-hourly is a matter for discussion.

The current 0947 northbound does that nicely, fitting an additional service into an otherwise two-hourly pattern. Similarly the 1506 southbound.

Regarding the new, later southbound departure from Carlisle. Why not stop this service at more stops, particularly at the northern end of the line? That way residents in the Eden valley can have a longer day in Carlisle (and beyond). Also it would offer later, sensible, connections from further afield for visitors to the area arriving at their accommoadation.

I used to stay in Settle / Giggleswick and travel out to the remote stations for a days walking (Ribblehead to Kirkby Stephen stations inclusive). More recently I have based myself in Keighley. On the proposed timetable I can catch the 0847 (at Settle) for Dent and Kirkby Stephen but have to wait for the 1017 (at Settle) for Ribblehead and Garsdale.
One is a little too early, the other a little too late.

Hey, ho, off to ramble elsewhere I shall have to go.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What does an infrequent service with apparently random calling patterns actually achieve for the passenger? Confusion, stress, missed trains, long waits when the next train doesn't call at your particular station - all ultimately a deterrence to future travel.

Agreed. It's so close to being 2 hour clockface that TBH I think it *should* be precisely 2 hour clockface, all stations (using request stops at the likes of Dent if necessary). Memorable patterns are proven to increase passenger loadings.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Yes I'm doing one on a vicar that wears women's underwear while giving his sermons.

Damn! You have that one? I was keeping that back for the Sunday edition

 

[70014IronDuke]

Yes. My brother in law lives in Dentdale and commutes into Leeds most weekdays.

From Ribblehead? (The early morning up doesn't stop at Dent, I don't think.)

 

[70014IronDuke]

There are quite a few commuters that use the first Up train out of Settle, enough so to warrant us putting out a large flask of coffee for them to help themselves to.

Can you put a number on that? I mean, on a typical weekday, school-term morning, is it 10? 20? 25? Even more? [Just for the fun of it, I'd guess 17-19 or so.]

It is a pity that there is such a gap until the next up train - so it's that or nothing for commuters heading towards Leeds. And it won't get any better with the new timetable, at least if it follows the provisional suggestions.

 

[RichmondCommu]

From Ribblehead? (The early morning up doesn't stop at Dent, I don't think.)

Yes from Ribblehead.

 

[gerryuk]

Why is there is a single service from Sheffield to Carlisle on a Sunday morning on this line? Is there any point to this or are they just testing the waters to judge passenger usage?

 

[BigCj34]

Why is there is a single service from Sheffield to Carlisle on a Sunday morning on this line? Is there any point to this or are they just testing the waters to judge passenger usage?

Is that new?

 

[BigCj34]

What does an infrequent service with apparently random calling patterns actually achieve for the passenger? Confusion, stress, missed trains, long waits when the next train doesn't call at your particular station - all ultimately a deterrence to future travel.

I'm with the other posters on this point - an express service should overlay an adequate local timetable, not replace it. A proper, regular, all stations service should be provided first - whether, in the case of both Carlisle and Lancaster lines out of Skipton, that should be hourly or two-hourly is a matter for discussion.

The current 0947 northbound does that nicely, fitting an additional service into an otherwise two-hourly pattern. Similarly the 1506 southbound.

Regarding the new, later southbound departure from Carlisle. Why not stop this service at more stops, particularly at the northern end of the line? That way residents in the Eden valley can have a longer day in Carlisle (and beyond). Also it would offer later, sensible, connections from further afield for visitors to the area arriving at their accommoadation.

I used to stay in Settle / Giggleswick and travel out to the remote stations for a days walking (Ribblehead to Kirkby Stephen stations inclusive). More recently I have based myself in Keighley. On the proposed timetable I can catch the 0847 (at Settle) for Dent and Kirkby Stephen but have to wait for the 1017 (at Settle) for Ribblehead and Garsdale.
One is a little too early, the other a little too late.

Hey, ho, off to ramble elsewhere I shall have to go.

If services are running express to reduce journey times, surely they'd be better off coordinating them better with connecting services.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Why is there is a single service from Sheffield to Carlisle on a Sunday morning on this line? Is there any point to this or are they just testing the waters to judge passenger usage?

...and back from Carlisle to Nottingham I believe.

It's little more than an interworking of the otherwise normal (Nottingham/)Sheffield <> Leeds "fast" and a Leeds <> Carlisle service; same rolling stock (2 car 158, typically), same TOC.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Is that new?

I think these through services have been running about three years. I suspect they would do more, but on weekdays they would entail blocking all lines at Leeds (please correct if I'm wrong) - so there isn't the capacity to do so. On Sundays, they can get away with it, so why not run a through train if the diagrams allow it? It might attract a few extra punters, after all?

 

[chrisncal54]

I think these through services have been running about three years. I suspect they would do more, but on weekdays they would entail blocking all lines at Leeds (please correct if I'm wrong) - so there isn't the capacity to do so. On Sundays, they can get away with it, so why not run a through train if the diagrams allow it? It might attract a few extra punters, after all?

You are right the trains - from Sheffield and Preston, returning to Nottingham and Blackpool respectively - are popular and attract extra passengers.

It’s often forgotten when people discuss the line that people live here and some of us use it regularly / daily. We have to be the core group Northern must facilitate all year, along with seasonal / weekend walkers and the ‘silvers’ - maturer people, usually couples - without whom daylight hour trains would be pretty empty during the Autumn and Winter months.

As presented the 09:17 would certainly need to be a four car in the Spring / Summer as the 08:47 is a very busy train. It’s usually a crowded 158+153, and when there’s no 153 it can be standing from Settle. Three morning trains from Leeds reduced to two is a clear worsening of service.

There remains considerable commuting through the Eden Vally between Appleby and Carlisle, using the 05:19 from Leeds, which survived the Eden Brows closure as Northern laid on truly good quality and well-timed coaches.

Condor7 is right that it’s very useful to actually have a slightly faster train to get to Leeds or Carlisle. Summer visitors forget how short our daylight hours are out of season; it seems an ever longer journey when the landscape is in darkness. A case can always be made to make 1M53 / 1E23 a stopper, but that ignores their use by locals, day-trippers and through-travellers.

A standard single from Leeds to Carlisle (and vice versa) is usually available for around £15 and is both quicker and cheaper than via Lancaster (£48) or Manchester (£32), and doesn’t require a change. It’s certainly a viable passenger through route between Carlisle and West Yorkshire, and vice versa, which we’d all like to see extended to Glasgow. The first time I ever travelled over the line was on the 23:59 from Nottingham to Glasgow in the summer of 1974 - I wonder how many times I have glimpsed the Ais Gill Summit sign since then.

The 60mph speed limit is perceived as hindering the S&C, of course. The current gaps in service are also considerable and can, therefore, be a deterrent too. FoSCL have worked really hard to see something from Leeds fill the weekday gap between the 14:49 and 18:06 departures, which the latest proposal does address; and one from Carlisle between those leaving at 05:50 and 08:53, which is ignored - but is particularly relevant to those of us who live here.

 

[route101]

I think these through services have been running about three years. I suspect they would do more, but on weekdays they would entail blocking all lines at Leeds (please correct if I'm wrong) - so there isn't the capacity to do so. On Sundays, they can get away with it, so why not run a through train if the diagrams allow it? It might attract a few extra punters, after all?

Marked in the timetables . If timetabled correctly id go Glasgow to Nottingham via Carlisle

 

[yorksrob]

I must admit, I agree with others on here that wildly varying stopping patterns as appears to be proposed, would be a step backwards.