10:02 Brighton to London Bridge today

[ComUtoR]

it just sounds like another example of passengers/customers being treated with utter contempt.

In what way ? "utter contempt" is quite a strong accusation. Are you suggesting that passengers can speak to staff any way they like and that the Driver must drive the train regardless of how they are feeling or they should be forced to drive whilst distracted ?

 

[Antman]

Unfortunately, some passengers think they are entitled to boss railway staff about and speak to them like crap. In my opinion, they should be removed from the station and banned from travelling by rail, though I appreciate that's easier said than done.

So would this only apply to the railway? What about bus drivers, shop staff, police officers and just about anybody else doing a public facing job?

Of course there is often a thin line between verbal abuse and a customer being understandably angry.
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In what way ? "utter contempt" is quite a strong accusation. Are you suggesting that passengers can speak to staff any way they like and that the Driver must drive the train regardless of how they are feeling or they should be forced to drive whilst distracted ?

From what the OP said the passenger just asked a reasonable question, did this really cause the driver to be in no fit state to drive the train?

I might add that I have seen railway staff on the end of unacceptable abuse and deal with it in a calm and professional way.

 

[Deepgreen]

It's not a public facing job. Train drivers are employed to drive trains from a locked cab.

How are they supposed to get to and from these cabs without encountering any passengers? Why was this cab not locked if the public are so desperately to be avoided? It may not be selling tickets or answering 'phones, but it's very much a public-facing job, both at stations and when drivers make announcements on trains (which they frequently do). Any job on the railway is public-facing when the right situation arises. Passengers are constantly exhorted to "tell a member of staff" if we see anything suspicious - should we therefore avoid drivers at all costs because they are supposed to locked away and are not for the likes of us?

 

[Antman]

It's not a public facing job. Train drivers are employed to drive trains from a locked cab.

And do you not think answering questions from the public to be part of that job? Most train drivers seem to have no problem with dealing with enquiries.

 

[DarloRich]

He may have been swearing, etc., but the OP said he wasn't swearing or shouting. We just don't know the facts.

but you don't have to shout to abuse or threaten someone. I could very easily threaten you in a quiet voice.

 

[Deepgreen]

but you don't have to shout to abuse or threaten someone. I could very easily threaten you in a quiet voice.

Indeed, as I alluded to in an earlier post. We just don't know.

 

[PHILIPE]

There's usually two sides to every story. Without knowing true facts for certain, can't comment.

 

[ar10642]

It's not a public facing job. Train drivers are employed to drive trains from a locked cab.

If I was in charge of a TOC I'd dismiss anyone who took that attitude. The railway does not exist for the convenience of its staff, it is a primarily a public service and all staff should be courteous to that public.

Some of the replies on this thread highlight that rudeness and bad manners are not the exclusive preserve of passengers.

 

[ComUtoR]

From what the OP said the passenger just asked a reasonable question, did this really cause the driver to be in no fit state to drive the train?

It's not my place to pass judgement, throw stones, or try to paint the railways in any good or bad light. I personally couldn't give a flying proverbial. What I do take umbrage to is that it appears that people are willing to accept that the Driver should just grin and bear it. They are also not willing to accept that a Driver can, and will make a decision to terminate the train. The second they do then its contemptuous to do so.

I worked in retail for many moons and people can be absolutely disgusting in their behaviour towards front-line staff. It should never be tolerated and if that means they walk away from a situation then so be it. No employee should come to work expecting to be treated badly.


As I mentioned and will continue to do so. Is that the Driver believed they were in no fit state to continue. That is 100% the correct behaviour of a professional Driver. It leads to incidents, I've read the reports. It is an absolute fact that distractions at the smallest level will affect driving behaviour.

I might add that I have seen railway staff on the end of unacceptable abuse and deal with it in a calm and professional way.

So have I. I am however; more than willing to accept that some people will avoid conflict and walk away from that situation. That is also acting professionally. Nobody should just accept it "in a calm professional way"

FYI I have been spat at, sworn at, threatened and had various things thrown at me. Some days all it takes is a single hand gesture to wind you up. The abuse some of us get is shocking. Have that abuse on a regular basis and you may find yourself simply stating you don't wish to continue.

 

[ar10642]

Delaying the train or even refusing to take it IS the professional response. I guess you missed my post about becoming distracted.



It should not "come with the territory" that is giving people free licence to abuse front facing staff. There are many caveats with public facing industries in that abuse, verbal or otherwise, will not be tolerated.

I did not miss it, but neither do I accept it. We don't fully know what happened here, but unless this was some *serious* personal abuse, I would expect the driver to be able to get on with the job they're paid to do, like all others in public facing positions are required to.

I agree that in an ideal world, everyone would treat everyone else with respect at all times. However since Utopia hasn't arrived yet sometimes staff have to accept that customers won't be nice all the time, just as the customers have to accept staff who aren't nice all the time.

If the staff went running home to mum every time someone was a little bit rude, not much would get done.

 

[ComUtoR]

If I was in charge of a TOC I'd dismiss anyone who took that attitude

You would be up for an employment tribunal. An employer has a responsibility to it's staff. A TOC also has a responsibility to its passengers and having a distracted Driver puts them at risk.
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I did not miss it, but neither do I accept it

Then you would be wrong.

 

[Antman]

It's not my place to pass judgement, throw stones, or try to paint the railways in any good or bad light. I personally couldn't give a flying proverbial. What I do take umbrage to is that it appears that people are willing to accept that the Driver should just grin and bear it. They are also not willing to accept that a Driver can, and will make a decision to terminate the train. The second they do then its contemptuous to do so.

I worked in retail for many moons and people can be absolutely disgusting in their behaviour towards front-line staff. It should never be tolerated and if that means they walk away from a situation then so be it. No employee should come to work expecting to be treated badly.


As I mentioned and will continue to do so. Is that the Driver believed they were in no fit state to continue. That is 100% the correct behaviour of a professional Driver. It leads to incidents, I've read the reports. It is an absolute fact that distractions at the smallest level will affect driving behaviour.



So have I. I am however; more than willing to accept that some people will avoid conflict and walk away from that situation. That is also acting professionally. Nobody should just accept it "in a calm professional way"

FYI I have been spat at, sworn at, threatened and had various things thrown at me. Some days all it takes is a single hand gesture to wind you up. The abuse some of us get is shocking. Have that abuse on a regular basis and you may find yourself simply stating you don't wish to continue.

Yes I've had verbal abuse when I was a bus driver and I would imagine most people in customer facing jobs have, you cannot simply walk away from certain situations and you just have to deal with it in a professional way.

Obviously spitting at somebody is abhorrent and anybody doing so should be prosecuted.

 

[ComUtoR]

If the staff went running home to mum every time someone was a little bit rude, not much would get done.

Maybe people would be more polite in the future.
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, you cannot simply walk away from certain situations

Actually yes you can. You do not have to accept any form of abuse from anyone.

and you just have to deal with it in a professional way.

As already stated. Cancelling the train is being professional. Shut up and take it is the wrong approach to dealing with rudeness and gives the image that it is acceptable.

 

[ar10642]

Delaying the train or even refusing to take it IS the professional response. I guess you missed my post about becoming distracted.



It should not "come with the territory" that is giving people free licence to abuse front facing staff. There are many caveats with public facing industries in that abuse, verbal or otherwise, will not be tolerated.

You would be up for an employment tribunal. An employer has a responsibility to it's staff. A TOC also has a responsibility to its passengers and having a distracted Driver puts them at risk.
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Then you would be wrong.

So I'd be up for an employment tribunal if I required my drivers to be prepared to talk to the public in a courteous manner if approached by them on the way to their "locked cab"?

Ridiculous.

Maybe the drivers do have too much power after all.

 

[bengley]

So I'd be up for an employment tribunal if I required my drivers to be prepared to talk to the public in a courteous manner if approached by them on the way to their "locked cab"?

Ridiculous.

Maybe the drivers do have too much power after all.

Nobody is disputing that drivers should be polite and courteous to customers, which they are 99.99% of the time, however they are not there to deal with customer complaints or aggressive behaviour - the former being for customer staff to deal with and the latter, the British Transport Police.

I hope you understand the risk of an agitated/upset driver being in charge of a train full of passengers - a driver has a lot to think about while in charge of a train and something which may seem trivial to you could play quite seriously on a drivers' mind.

 

[ComUtoR]

So I'd be up for an employment tribunal if I required my drivers to be prepared to talk to the public in a courteous manner if approached by them on the way to their "locked cab"?

.

You cannot randomly sack people without reason or if they don't fit with your ideology. You also have a duty of care to the employee as well as having safety critical procedures. If a Driver chose to take this action and you decided that it wasn't acceptable then you would be at fault.

You need to realise that the Driver keying off in this incident is not any real failure of attitude. If they are polite and courteous and still keyed off then there really isn't anything you can do. I don't even think I am specifically required to be polite. I am not allowed to be rude that's for sure and potentially that would be sackable. Some Drivers aren't customer facing. We really are up the front in a locked cab. Our job is to drive the train safely.

Driving your train distracted leads to incident.

 

[Class377/5]

So I'd be up for an employment tribunal if I required my drivers to be prepared to talk to the public in a courteous manner if approached by them on the way to their "locked cab"?

Ridiculous.

Maybe the drivers do have too much power after all.

Its not ridiculous. If the driver misses something while doing a prep then that could lead to an incident. Safely above everything on the railway. (Now watch me be attacked because I dared to put safety above customer service which is far more important in an industry like the railway).

 

[Deepgreen]

May I suggest we await any facts which may emerge, rather than speculate further?

 

[Antman]

Maybe people would be more polite in the future.
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Actually yes you can. You do not have to accept any form of abuse from anyone.

I was driving a bus, what do I do get out and walk off down the road, to where exactly?

 

[bengley]

I was driving a bus, what do I do get out and walk off down the road, to where exactly?

Turn off the engine and refuse to drive the bus if you feel that continued operation of the vehicle could lead to an accident, I'd say.

 

[leaffall]

I did "pick one line" because it was a contentious (and apparently anti-passenger) one! Yes, we may well know many possible reasons why door release wasn't effected, but, my point was that a passenger cannot be expected to know (or care) about such niceties. He and all the other people waiting would just want the doors opened to gain access and sit down. Who is to say that he "knew full well that the doors would be released"? If that hadn't happened one minute prior to scheduled departure, questions would obviously be forming in passengers' minds. The average passenger, seeing a member of staff in the cab, might well ask if the doors could be opened, without being labelled as nosey.
As I said, I was not commenting on this specific incident, but simply pointing out that passengers often are left wondering why access to trains is denied to them. I have no idea what was said here (as I also pointed out), but it would seem that there is more to it than we know so far.

yes that's well put, and fair point. We may never find exactly what was said but like you say sure there's surely more to it, because we continually get talked down to, snide sarcastic remarks, trial by Twitter, dirty looks the other day I was told to walk faster when I went back to reset a pass-com and I was already going reasonably briskly it's all par for the course so for this driver to react like he did something must have touched a nerve

 

[ComUtoR]

I was driving a bus, what do I do get out and walk off down the road, to where exactly?

A good friend of mine used to work for Oxford City. You do have action you can take.

I have been on a bus where it was unloaded due to bad behaviour. I know the behaviour Bus Drivers go through. It makes my job look like unicorns and rainbows.

I feel your pain but you can stop the bus and not continue if you wanted. You can call the police to attend (as happened to my good friend)

One of the best things I like about being a Train Driver is that I have little to no interaction with the public any more. Some passengers are awesome , friendly and understanding. Others are vitriolic.

I've seen Drivers flip out at passengers and they are still working. I have also seen a Driver quit his job because he couldn't really take it any more

 

[bengley]

Also, I witnessed a driver being called a f***ing c**t today for stopping at the 4 car marker (in a 4 car train) by a passenger who had been standing a fair way down the platform near to the 8 car marker. If a driver is sworn at for doing their job correctly, what more can they do to stop themselves from being open to such abuse?

 

[ar10642]

Turn off the engine and refuse to drive the bus if you feel that continued operation of the vehicle could lead to an accident, I'd say.

What I'm saying is that in other industries, this mostly doesn't happen. If everyone downed tools every time someone annoyed them then very little would get done anywhere.

Note that I'm not saying it's acceptable that customers are rude or aggressive towards staff, just that it occasionally happens and people need to be pragmatic, just as customers are towards staff who offer sub-standard service. My experience on the railway is that most staff are helpful, but I've certainly seen a few who have a bad attitude and can't be bothered. Likewise most customers are fine, but you get the occasional tosser. I can't see this situation ever changing.

What I don't accept is the bizarre idea that customers should never talk to drivers (assuming they even know they're drivers) and if they do they're justified in simply walking away, and there's nothing the employer can say about that.

 

[ExRes]

I was driving a bus, what do I do get out and walk off down the road, to where exactly?

Where exactly was hardly at the top of the agenda of a bus driver I was travelling with, he got fed up with being abused by a couple of numbskull passengers so pulled up in Oxford Street, got out and walked off

Opening the doors has always been a point of interest, there are so many thick as planks passengers out there that it's often in everyones best interests to keep the doors locked for as long as possible, especially in terminal stations where 'the front' seems so difficult to understand when there's only a couple of coffee shops and a brick wall behind the train to give a subtle clue, it's an awful lot easier to keep people on the platform rather than try to deal with them when they're travelling on the wrong train

For those of a dainty nature, you simply wouldn't believe what train staff have to put up with from the 'great' British public, if, and I repeat if, this driver did bite back then good for him/her but, as usual on this forum, we have nothing other than people who have no proper information laying down the rules

 

[ar10642]

Also, I witnessed a driver being called a f***ing c**t today for stopping at the 4 car marker (in a 4 car train) by a passenger who had been standing a fair way down the platform near to the 8 car marker. If a driver is sworn at for doing their job correctly, what more can they do to stop themselves from being open to such abuse?

This is, of course, unacceptable. I'm not defending behaviour like that. The customer is an a*se. Perhaps he should have been reported to BTP.

Should the driver have just abandoned the train at that point, though? You seem to be implying that he should have.

 

[bengley]

This is, of course, unacceptable. I'm not defending behaviour like that. The customer is an a*se. Perhaps he should have been reported to BTP.

Should the driver have just abandoned the train at that point, though? You seem to be implying that he should have.

If the driver continued and had an incident and this was blamed, the driver would be punished for their incident and face possible prosecution.

So yes, if the driver felt as though his state of mind was badly affected by this, he should have.

 

[leaffall]

What I don't accept is the bizarre idea that customers should never talk to drivers (assuming they even know they're drivers) and if they do they're justified in simply walking away, and there's nothing the employer can say about that.

But this is a very isolated incident, and I'm sure that if a given staff member reacted like that on a regular basis there would be actions the employer could take. further, it's not been said passengers should "never" talk to drivers,
But as has been mentioned something that gets your blood up can affect your concentration. Even government advice is to pull over and take a break if something angers you when driving your car

 

[Antman]

Also, I witnessed a driver being called a f***ing c**t today for stopping at the 4 car marker (in a 4 car train) by a passenger who had been standing a fair way down the platform near to the 8 car marker. If a driver is sworn at for doing their job correctly, what more can they do to stop themselves from being open to such abuse?

Bizzare to say the least!

 

[bengley]

Bizzare to say the least!

Although sadly this type of abuse directed to railway staff is not uncommon.