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10:40 Glasgow - Euston unusual call

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Huntergreed

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As I am travelling with Virgin Trains soon, I have been doing a little research into their timetable, and it seems that the 10:40 390/1 express service from Glasgow to Euston has started calling at Rugby. Does anyone know why this is? I have travelled on this route frequently before and I have never known for any of their XX:40 Glasgow to Euston 390/1 services to stop anywhere after Warrington.
 
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Huntergreed

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It has called at Rugby ever since the 16th May timetable change.

Clearly my lack of timetable attention then :p

Are there any more plans for Virgin to introduce extra stops on their Scotland services? I always thought they should stop at Crewe...
 

adrock1976

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Ideally, they should reinstate the calls at Motherwell and Watford Junction that were cut in the December 2008 timetable change,

This caused a huge amount of inconvenience to a friend of mine (and other residents in the ML postcode area) who resides in the Lanark area, who was travelling from Lanark to Rickmansworth. It involved not one, but 2 ridiculous doublebacks between Lanark and Glasgow Central, and London Euston and Watford Junction.

Needless to say, as both my friend and her youngest daughter drives, they share the driving between them, which is more or less a similar time to drive between Lanark and Rickmansworth, with no doublebacks involved whatsoever, and no wondering if VTWC cannot run trains as advertised in the timetable, and plus space for luggage in the car too.
 

Ianno87

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Ideally, they should reinstate the calls at Motherwell and Watford Junction that were cut in the December 2008 timetable change,

This caused a huge amount of inconvenience to a friend of mine (and other residents in the ML postcode area) who resides in the Lanark area, who was travelling from Lanark to Rickmansworth. It involved not one, but 2 ridiculous doublebacks between Lanark and Glasgow Central, and London Euston and Watford Junction.

Needless to say, as both my friend and her youngest daughter drives, they share the driving between them, which is more or less a similar time to drive between Lanark and Rickmansworth, with no doublebacks involved whatsoever, and no wondering if VTWC cannot run trains as advertised in the timetable, and plus space for luggage in the car too.

Good luck getting an extra stop on the Fast Line at Watford Junction without losing another train path. The Up Glasgow is ordinarily followed on minimum headway by the Up Birmingham service that calls at Rugby.

And adding Motherwell will bust the turnround time at Glasgow and require an extra Pendolino to be magic-ed out of thin air.

However, I'm still baffled about the logic for the sole Rugby call in the 1040 ex-Glasgow - there appears to be no obvious demand need that it is serving from Rugby at that time in the afternoon.
 

Huntergreed

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Good luck getting an extra stop on the Fast Line at Watford Junction without losing another train path.

Couldn't they just divert the 390 onto the slow line to stop at Watford at peak times. I would personally also like to see more Virgin Trains calling at Lockerbie, it is the only WCML station in my region and I have to go to Carlisle to catch a 390... which adds an extra hour to the journey (although the traffic at Carlisle is great).
 

NSE

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Couldn't they just divert the 390 onto the slow line to stop at Watford at peak times. I would personally also like to see more Virgin Trains calling at Lockerbie, it is the only WCML station in my region and I have to go to Carlisle to catch a 390... which adds an extra hour to the journey (although the traffic at Carlisle is great).

Nah, north they'd have to cross the fast slow which is pain in the a*se. Heading north you'd still have to cross one of the slow lines. Which would still be a pain when things don't go to plan.
 

MCR247

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I would personally also like to see more Virgin Trains calling at Lockerbie, it is the only WCML station in my region and I have to go to Carlisle to catch a 390... which adds an extra hour to the journey (although the traffic at Carlisle is great).



I quite like that logic tbf
 

Tetchytyke

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Couldn't they just divert the 390 onto the slow line to stop at Watford at peak times.

Not easily, as the layout in the south is DF-UF-DS-US. They took the crossover at the north end of Watford Junction out when they resignalled it a year or two ago, and in any case a) the slows are also at capacity in the peaks and b) heading south you'd need to get across the down slow and heading north you'd need to get across the up fast.

It's a pain, I agree, I used to travel Penrith-Hemel and I could see my house from the train window an hour before I got home. The lack of a Milton Keynes stop is probably the most annoying on the Glasgows.
 

The Planner

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Watford North will go back in, it didn't go back in during the re-sig as Harbury occurred at the same time and the required blocks would have cut off the two routes to the Midlands.
 

DarloRich

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Couldn't they just divert the 390 onto the slow line to stop at Watford at peak times. I would personally also like to see more Virgin Trains calling at Lockerbie, it is the only WCML station in my region and I have to go to Carlisle to catch a 390... which adds an extra hour to the journey (although the traffic at Carlisle is great).

I doubt there is the capacity for that either! If we are going to ask for extra calls everywhere can we have all VT trains stopping at MK please?
 

AndrewE

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I doubt there is the capacity for that either! If we are going to ask for extra calls everywhere can we have all VT trains stopping at MK please?

This discussion exactly illustrates my point made in another thread some time ago that we really do need a TaktFahrplan approach. I think there is enormous suppressed demand for journeys not to or from London (and other) termini but business cases only seem to get approval if London is being given something better out of it..
 

Philip C

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Before this thread, as so many in the past, expires under the weight of special pleading from those living in the hinterland of Milton Keynes could anyone explain the reason for the one-off stop at Rugby as raised by the Opening Poster?
 

Chrism20

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Seems a bit bizarre. It's not a gap in the timetable as the 1350 ex New Street stops at Rugby at 1422 and the 1040 ex Glasgow calls at Rugby at 1423 which makes it seem even more random.
 

greatkingrat

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It seems to be some sort of pathing issue. At 1400 the fast line arrivals at Euston are

1400 from LIV
1403 from MAN
1410 from GLC

an hour later

1504 from LIV
1509 from MAN
1513 from GLC

So the root cause seems to be the Liverpool train running slightly later than its normal path, causing to knock on delays to the Manchester and Glasgow trains. I guess Virgin have decided that rather than catch up with the preceding trains, they may as well use the extra 3 minutes to make an extra stop.
 

Huntergreed

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It seems to be some sort of pathing issue. At 1400 the fast line arrivals at Euston are

1400 from Liverpool Lime Street
1403 from Manchester Piccadilly
1410 from Glasgow Central

an hour later

1504 from Liverpool Lime Street
1509 from Manchester Piccadilly
1513 from Glasgow Central

So the root cause seems to be the Liverpool train running slightly later than its normal path, causing to knock on delays to the Manchester and Glasgow trains. I guess Virgin have decided that rather than catch up with the preceding trains, they may as well use the extra 3 minutes to make an extra stop.

Good point, I wonder why they chose Rugby... Milton Keynes or Crewe would have been better IMO...
 

DarloRich

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Before this thread, as so many in the past, expires under the weight of special pleading from those living in the hinterland of Milton Keynes could anyone explain the reason for the one-off stop at Rugby as raised by the Opening Poster?

i would assume some operational/timetable conflict reasoning
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Good point, I wonder why they chose Rugby... Milton Keynes or Crewe would have been better IMO...

platform space? fewer conflicts? operational ease? Connection with TV service?
 

Huntergreed

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i would assume some operational/timetable conflict reasoning
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


platform space? fewer conflicts? operational ease? Connection with TV service?

Yeah, I guess so, I'm certainly not complaining about quicker trips to Rugby :p
 

Ianno87

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It seems to be some sort of pathing issue. At 1400 the fast line arrivals at Euston are

1400 from LIV
1403 from MAN
1410 from GLC

an hour later

1504 from LIV
1509 from MAN
1513 from GLC

So the root cause seems to be the Liverpool train running slightly later than its normal path, causing to knock on delays to the Manchester and Glasgow trains. I guess Virgin have decided that rather than catch up with the preceding trains, they may as well use the extra 3 minutes to make an extra stop.

I've got it. The 1504 from Liverpool (departing 1248) follows the 1234 Lime Street-Birmingham, which has a non-standard additional call at Acton Bridge, putting it later through Crewe than the normal xx34 path. This knocks it back through the sequence of following trains, culminating in the additional Rugby call in the 1040 ex-Glasgow to use up what would otherwise be pathing time.
 

Mag_seven

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The problem with the current Euston - Glasgow stopping pattern is the tradeoff between providing as low as possible journey time between London and Glasgow and the need to serve intermediate stations. Ideally all Euston - Glasgow's would be non stop to Preston with a Euston - Preston "stopper" serving the intermediates such as Milton Keynes, Crewe Warrington and Wigan. The trouble with that is of course passengers from Wigan and Warrington would lose their fast services to Euston. With most timetables and stopping patterns you can't please everybody.
 

louis97

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I've got it. The 1504 from Liverpool (departing 1248) follows the 1234 Lime Street-Birmingham, which has a non-standard additional call at Acton Bridge, putting it later through Crewe than the normal xx34 path. This knocks it back through the sequence of following trains, culminating in the additional Rugby call in the 1040 ex-Glasgow to use up what would otherwise be pathing time.

Not completely down to the Acton Bridge stop, that only results in the xx34 Liv-Bhm leaving Crewe half minute later.

Its the pathing time approaching Stafford which causes the knock on effect, down to a freight train on the SLs in the Stafford area, causing a conflict with the xx42 Crewe which in that hour leaves earlier at xx39.
 

Bald Rick

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I've got it. The 1504 from Liverpool (departing 1248) follows the 1234 Lime Street-Birmingham, which has a non-standard additional call at Acton Bridge, putting it later through Crewe than the normal xx34 path. This knocks it back through the sequence of following trains, culminating in the additional Rugby call in the 1040 ex-Glasgow to use up what would otherwise be pathing time.

You should work in the timetable department.
 

Huntergreed

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The problem with the current Euston - Glasgow stopping pattern is the tradeoff between providing as low as possible journey time between London and Glasgow and the need to serve intermediate stations. Ideally all Euston - Glasgow's would be non stop to Preston with a Euston - Preston "stopper" serving the intermediates such as Milton Keynes, Crewe Warrington and Wigan. The trouble with that is of course passengers from Wigan and Warrington would lose their fast services to Euston. With most timetables and stopping patterns you can't please everybody.

IMO they should do this complicated but practical resolution:
From Euston
1 Pendolino per 2 hours Express to Glasgow via Nuneaton (Calling at Preston, Lancaster and Carlisle)

1 Voyager per 2h Stopper to Glasgow via Nuneaton (Calling at Watford, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Tamworth, Lichfield TV, Stafford, Crewe, Warrington, Wigan, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme, Penrith, Carlisle, Lockerbie, Motherwell and Glasgow Central)

1 Pendolino per 2 hours Express to Glasgow via Birmingham (Calling at Birmingham Intl, Birmingham New Street, Wolverhamton, Preston, Carlisle and Glasgow Central)

1 Pendolino per 2 hours Express to Edinburgh via Birmingham (Calling at Birmingham Intl, Birmingham New Street, Wolverhampton, Preston, Carlisle, Haymarket and Edinburgh)

1 Voyager per 2 hours Stopper to Glasgow via Birmingham (Calling at Watford, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Coventry, Birmingham Intl, Birmingham New Street, Sandwell and Dudley, Wolverhampton, Crewe, Warrington, Wigan, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme, Penrith, Carlisle, Lockerbie, Motherwell and Glasgow Central)

1 Voyager per 2 hours Stopper to Edinburgh via Birmingham (Calling at Watford, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Coventry, Birmingham Intl, Birmingham New Street, Sandwell and Dudley, Wooverhampton, Crewe, Warrington, Wigan, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme, Penrith, Carlisle, Lockerbie, Haymarket and Edinburgh)

I realise that fitting these diagrams into the current timetable would be a nightmare, but this is the service that I feel the WCML needs. I mean with 30 minute ECML departures to Scotland, I'm sure that the WCML could provide 3 trains per hour. I would send out 2 Glasgows and 1 Edinburgh service per hour, 2 via Birmingham (One stopper and one Express) and 1 via the Trent Valley route. The idea of the stopper voyagers would not be to ride the whole journey on the stopper (unless you want a VERY long WCML ride)but to ride it to the nearest Express station and catch a 390 to your ultimate destination, although if it was me, I would ride the stopping voyagers, just for fun :p
 

Huntergreed

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There is a Euston to Chester in the opposite direction that now calls at Rugby.

Which service? Virgin seem to pick their stops by eenie-meenie-mienie-moe, I choose you, now let's stop :p
 

PHILIPE

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Which service? Virgin seem to pick their stops by eenie-meenie-mienie-moe, I choose you, now let's stop :p

1D86 1210 Euston to Chester. The NRE Summary of May 2016 quotes 2 Virgin
West Coast trains, this one and the one the subject of the thread, calling additionally at Rugby. There are several calling pattern alterations along the route.
 

dk1

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The problem with the current Euston - Glasgow stopping pattern is the tradeoff between providing as low as possible journey time between London and Glasgow and the need to serve intermediate stations. Ideally all Euston - Glasgow's would be non stop to Preston with a Euston - Preston "stopper" serving the intermediates such as Milton Keynes, Crewe Warrington and Wigan. The trouble with that is of course passengers from Wigan and Warrington would lose their fast services to Euston. With most timetables and stopping patterns you can't please everybody.

Virgin or whoever ends up holding the franchise needs to weigh up the odds of which is of the most financial benefit to the business. I doubt a couple of extra stops would cause much if any loss of patronage from Wigan/Warrington whereas it may be a huge plus for the lucrative Glasgow/London market. I personally would welcome an hourly Blackpool/Lancaster service to allow the next upgrade of Anglo-Scottish WCML services which have really improved over the last few years with passenger usage following suit. I do think it a shame the 16:30 down 'flagship' has been lost but sure they know better than me on that one.
 

AndrewE

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The problem with the current Euston - Glasgow stopping pattern is the tradeoff between providing as low as possible journey time between London and Glasgow and the need to serve intermediate stations. Ideally all Euston - Glasgow's would be non stop to Preston with a Euston - Preston "stopper" serving the intermediates such as Milton Keynes, Crewe Warrington and Wigan. The trouble with that is of course passengers from Wigan and Warrington would lose their fast services to Euston. With most timetables and stopping patterns you can't please everybody.

... which is why we need a strategic review that recognises the travel needs of all of us who don't just want to get to London. I admit that sometimes I do & it's brilliant, sometimes I want to go to Glasgow or Edinburgh which isn't quite so good, but equally I sometimes need to get to Peterborough, Leeds or Axminster. The ones not on the straight end-to-[London] end lines are very poorly served, in my opinion.
Sorry to keep harping on about this, but it's a major failing compared with the Swiss Taktfahrplan that I enjoyed 20 or so years ago
 
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