10 years in prison for forgetting to renew a railcard?

[fandroid]

I don't disagree that reminders could and should probably be sent out. But you wouldn't plan a holiday and book a flight without checking your passport was in date. Why should taking a train journey be any different?

It actually happens quite a lot! Including to my wife. We had to postpone a rail trip to Switzerland while she rushed around and paid extra to get a swift renewal.

They are if someone has opted out of marketing.

A simple reminder of expiry isn't marketing

 

[island]

A simple reminder of expiry isn't marketing

It is if you're asking someone to buy a new one.

 

[AdamWW]

But you wouldn't plan a holiday and book a flight without checking your passport was in date. Why should taking a train journey be any different?

Because of the perceived view that accidentally using an expired railcard is likely to have much less serious consequences than missing out on a holiday?

A perception that the railway does nothing to correct until someone has actually made the mistake, at which point I imagine it comes as a surprise to most people to find that they have done something which is punished more harshly than attempting to get away without paying a fare at all.

 

[nw1]

There's no central database. And if there was they couldn't hope to keep it up to date. Plus some people will legitimately buy tickets for other people. Then there's the times you haven't got a valid Railcard at the point of purchase, but will have at the time of travel

Could easily be one though. At the cost of a few seconds during the buying process, this would be an excellent measure to prevent people unintentionally (or indeed otherwise) using invalid railcards.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jul 2023 ==

Because of the perceived view that accidentally using an expired railcard is likely to have much less serious consequences than missing out on a holiday?

Also, if you don't have an in-date passport you would never be able to board the plane / Eurostar / ferry etc.

And thus, the possibility of entering a country without a passport is not going to happen, unlike boarding a train without a valid railcard.

 

[GoneSouth]

I’m amazed at the ineptitude of people in general these days. It really isn’t hard to work out if your railcard is due to expire imminently every time you buy a ticket, honestly it’s just not!

If you buy a holiday do you make sure your passport is valid for the appropriate time? Yes

If you drive your car do you make sure its tax is in date? Yes

When you buy a rail ticket do you buy it with railcard discount? Yes, you’ve made an active decision to do that so it’s your responsibility to ensure you have a valid railcard.

What the heck happened to this Country, once world leaders in most fields, now we can’t even check a date!

 

[AlterEgo]

If you drive your car do you make sure its tax is in date? Yes

No. I get reminders and have an auto renewal with direct debit. I never have to make sure.

 

[Krokodil]

the onus remains on the purchaser.

True, but it's still good customer service to forewarn them.

but given the problems of creating and maintaining the requisite database

Why would you need a database? If someone's railcard is loaded onto an app, the app can notify you itself. That takes care of most. Railcards issued through the post will almost certainly mean that you details (expiry date and email address are the only ones needed) are on file. So all that leaves are booking office-issued railcards, which are a minority. Sending a reminder is a favour to the customer, not an obligation for the railway so it doesn't matter if not everyone gets one.

It is if you're asking someone to buy a new one.

So don't do that then.

It really isn’t hard to work out if your railcard is due to expire imminently every time you buy a ticket, honestly it’s just not!

No, but who checks their own one before buying? I never did.

If you buy a holiday do you make sure your passport is valid for the appropriate time? Yes

If your passport is out of date the consequences are going to be far more severe than the likely consequences of an expired railcard. You are likely to be out of pocket to the tune of thousands, whereas with an expired railcard it's probably just going to cost you a new ticket, maybe with a £50 PF.

 

[AdamWW]

If your passport is out of date the consequences are going to be far more severe than the likely consequences of an expired railcard. You are likely to be out of pocket to the tune of thousands, whereas with an expired railcard it's probably just going to cost you a new ticket, maybe with a £50 PF.

I'm sure that's what most people assume.

But as we've seen, it can actually lead to demands for far larger sums of money under threat of prosecution. While a threat of 10 years in prison is unusual, going after someone for new tickets at Anytime prices for every journey made since it expired seems to be normal now.

 

[GoneSouth]

No. I get reminders and have an auto renewal with direct debit. I never have to make sure.

But you’ve taken steps to ensure it is in date by setting up a direct debit, you haven’t left it to somebody else to remind you.

It’s really not too difficult to take a bit of personal responsibility for our own finances and travel documents.

No, but who checks their own one before buying? I never did.

Which is of course within your right to do and you’ve actively made a choice not to. Don’t then be outraged at a prosecution for falsely claiming a discount you aren’t entitled to.

 

[AlterEgo]

But you’ve taken steps to ensure it is in date by setting up a direct debit, you haven’t left it to somebody else to remind you.

That's because the service is offered, unlike with railcards.

It’s really not too difficult to take a bit of personal responsibility for our own finances and travel documents.

Nobody is disputing this, but rather sensibly countering that given the very high stakes, it might be wise for the company to offer auto-renew or a reminder that your membership is about to expire. Why do you think the DVLA emails and writes to me to remind me, and offers an automatic renewal?

Which is of course within your right to do and you’ve actively made a choice not to. Don’t then be outraged at a prosecution for falsely claiming a discount you aren’t entitled to.

That actually is outrageous, the mere act of - unintentionally! - claiming a discount resulting in criminal prosecution. We have a real sickness in our political culture that every small matter must somehow be turned into a crime or a matter for the state. Most countries would laugh heartily at this situation; it is pathetic.

What next, the police coming for me at Cineworld when I mistakenly try to use my expired membership card? Getting lifted for trying to pass an expired Tesco coupon at the checkout?

 

[AdamWW]

That actually is outrageous, the mere act of - unintentionally! - claiming a discount resulting in criminal prosecution. We have a real sickness in our political culture that every small matter must somehow be turned into a crime or a matter for the state. Most countries would laugh heartily at this situation; it is pathetic.

What next, the police coming for me at Cineworld when I mistakenly try to use my expired membership card? Getting lifted for trying to pass an expired Tesco coupon at the checkout?

Clearly opinions vary on this, but I'm with you all the way on this one.

Nobody is disputing this, but rather sensibly countering that given the very high stakes, it might be wise for the company to offer auto-renew or a reminder that your membership is about to expire.

Or at the least tell people how high the stakes are when they get the railcard, rather than after the event.

It’s really not too difficult to take a bit of personal responsibility for our own finances and travel documents.

I would have thought it wouldn't be too difficult for rail staff to understand some simple principles of ticket validity. But plenty can't or won't.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It is if you're asking someone to buy a new one.

There is no reason why they couldn’t carve out consent for a reminder from consent for marketing. It was an eye-opener seeing the different GDPR questions Holiday Inn in Hamburg asked compared to the generic nonsense here.

We have a real sickness in our political culture that every small matter must somehow be turned into a crime or a matter for the state.

I agree, but this isn’t a political culture, this is a commercial company exploiting the law to extract money from people by making ridiculous threats. The lack of willing to fix our broken legal system is a political culture, agreed.

I am constantly amazed at how many people asking for help on this forum are foreign students with limited English; assuming even just half of them are telling the truth, it suggests to me that the TOCs are deliberately targeting these people.

We see the same with Capita, who enforce the TV Tax. My experience at Citizens Advice was that 90% of people presenting with TV Tax fines were single mothers, which rather indicates Capita were deliberately targeting them.

It’s really not too difficult to take a bit of personal responsibility for our own finances and travel documents.

Of course the TOCs take no such responsibility when they mess up. There’s no £90 admin fee paid to someone who successfully appeals a Penalty Fare, or to someone who is wrongly denied travel because the barrier staff at the station don’t understand the ticket products they are inspecting.

 

[AlterEgo]

I am constantly amazed at how many people asking for help on this forum are foreign students with limited English; assuming even just half of them are telling the truth, it suggests to me that the TOCs are deliberately targeting these people.

Of course they are. But I suggested this a while back and was shot down, as if even unconscious bias was somehow magically absent from the railway while all other explanations remained perfectly on the table.

We see the same with Capita, who enforce the TV Tax. My experience at Citizens Advice was that 90% of people presenting with TV Tax fines were single mothers, which rather indicates Capita were deliberately targeting them.

It is all about low hanging fruit. RPIs have a thankless and sometimes hazardous job and they are not going to waste time on a male, mid-thirties smartass like me who can argue them all day, or who seems like they might just say "look mate I'm not bothered about this, go do this to someone else" and just leave at the next station. far better for them to concentrate on more pliable people.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It is all about low hanging fruit. RPIs have a thankless and sometimes hazardous job

Absolutely. I don’t necessarily blame RPIs for being more selective on who they target as no fare dodger’s worth getting beaten up for. But I think it’s obvious they are more assertive against people who are less able to fight back, literally or metaphorically.

I am possibly being unfair in describing it as “deliberate”.

 

[Western Sunset]

DVLA reminds me that my car tax is expiring soon.
My insurer reminds me it's time to renew my policy.
Same with the RAC.
Same with the organisation I'm a Chartered Member of.
Same with the National Trust.

So why not Railcards?

 

[Krokodil]

Which is of course within your right to do and you’ve actively made a choice not to. Don’t then be outraged at a prosecution for falsely claiming a discount you aren’t entitled to.

I didn't actively make a choice at all. I'm not a particularly organised person at the best of times, those society memberships that are not Direct Debit often get renewed late. Luckily Rail Staff Travel send my Priv and FIP cards through the post each year without intervention from me.

I once checked my 16-25 railcard just before a long journey (at a time when I didn't travel often) and realised that it needed renewing. I'd left it so late that even with paying for special delivery it only just arrived on time. Lesson learned, one I carried forward when I joined the railway and now make a point of telling passengers if I see that their railcard comes up for renewal soon. Some are already aware, but those who hadn't noticed are grateful.

There are plenty of things that you could say are the customer's responsibility (how about checking ticket restrictions?) but it's still good customer service to help the customer avoid getting into situations that could result in a negative experience. If the railway wants to encourage repeat business, it needs to go the extra mile.

 

[najaB]

My view is that this is one of those areas of life where we need to take personal responsibility for getting it right.

The correct answer, IMO.

 

[BayPaul]

The correct answer, IMO.

I agree. So I don't have a railcard as I don't trust the railway to remind me, but do have a car, as I get reminders for tax, insurance, MOT and service. Who loses out?

 

[AlterEgo]

I agree. So I don't have a railcard as I don't trust the railway to remind me, but do have a car, as I get reminders for tax, insurance, MOT and service. Who loses out?

The reason you don’t have a railcard is solely because you don’t trust the railway to remind you to renew it?

 

[Hadders]

DVLA reminds me that my car tax is expiring soon.
My insurer reminds me it's time to renew my policy.
Same with the RAC.
Same with the organisation I'm a Chartered Member of.
Same with the National Trust.

So why not Railcards?

There isn’t a reliable central database of railcards.

To be fair, earlier this year, I did get reminder via the post that my Network Railcard was due to expire but how many people give the correct and full contact details when purchasing a railcard. How many of those that do give the correct details then tick the box to opt out of marketing communications?

 

[Western Sunset]

Why not start creating one? Or at least send reminders to those they do have contact details.

Or is GDPR being used as a smokescreen to do nothing...

 

[contrex]

I’m amazed at the ineptitude of people in general these days. It really isn’t hard to work out if your railcard is due to expire imminently every time you buy a ticket, honestly it’s just not!

My Senior Railcard says 27-MCH-24 in a GREAT BIG typeface. I see it every time I get it out. That date is engraved on my memory, like 'Calais' was on Queen Mary's heart.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or if the card's long, alphanumeric ID is hard to read/remember/convey, could the sellers simply not request the expiry date, which is in big letters (And gives the purchaser an opportunity to record it in their own diary/app, to prompt the parent's renewal).
If the trip (for self or others) is beyond the relevant, current one's expiry (or even purchase), there could be a tick box to declare this.
If the purchaser falsifies any of these specific declarations, they can't then claim the future absence of a Railcard is a mere oversight.

Asking for the expiry date is a good idea even if it is cross referenced with nothing, as it makes the purchaser check it. It's similar when making a standalone reservation from LNER - you are asked for a booking reference or ticket number, which prompts you to check you have a ticket, but it's quite happy with 0 or .

 

[HarryF]

LNER’s website allows you to add your railcard’s expiry date if you have an account with them. Perhaps all sites could look at something similar?

 

[johncrossley]

They could start automatically renewing your railcard like a subscription that you have to opt out of. Obviously you would get a reminder that your card won't get renewed if you get too old for one. The other kinds of railcard would keep automatically renewing for life.

 

[Krokodil]

My Senior Railcard says 27-MCH-24 in a GREAT BIG typeface. I see it every time I get it out. That date is engraved on my memory, like 'Calais' was on Queen Mary's heart.

How often do you get asked to show it? I occasionally ask an old lady to produce her railcard and she says "do you know, you're the first person to ask to see it since.."

Senior railcards - alongside disabled - are probably the least checked railcards. If no one ever asks to see it then it's easy for the customer to never see the expiry date and forget.

 

[sprite]

There's no central database. And if there was they couldn't hope to keep it up to date.

Utter crap. A database tracking ID number, Type and validity dates is trivial and fast. Give me a working week and I'd have one built to an enterprise performance level.

 

[contrex]

How often do you get asked to show it?

Every trip usually, once when buying tickets, and again if encountering a revenue check en route. Home station Stapleton Road, trips 2 or 3 times a week on GWR to Cardiff, Weston-S-Mare, Bath, Bradford on Avon, Stroud, Gloucester, etc. It seems so obvious that if its presence is required to make a discounted ticket valid, that I should take a look at it before even going to the station. I really think people who don't much be really scatty.

 

[johncrossley]

The Germans seem to manage automatic renewals of railcards without a problem.

BahnCard 25: 25% discount on Deutsche Bahn train tickets

The BahnCard 25 is perfect for people who occasionally travel by train. You receive a 25% discount on the super saver fare, saver fare and flexible fare.

www.bahn.com

A BahnCard 25 is valid for one year starting on the first day of its stated validity period. It is automatically extended by one year if it is not cancelled in writing 6 weeks before it is due to expire.

 

[island]

They could start automatically renewing your railcard like a subscription that you have to opt out of. Obviously you would get a reminder that your card won't get renewed if you get too old for one. The other kinds of railcard would keep automatically renewing for life.

And down the line we then see complaints about "mis-selling" of subscriptions, it being "impossible to cancel", etc. etc.