14.2 Query - Split tickets, train not stopping

[185]

Quick one. As I don't work over that way any more, and I've heard previously of PTEs over that way having rules which contradict the rest of the UK, I'm hoping someone could suggest if this is right...


Manchester Sheffield for an 75 year old bus pass holder.

TfGM Concessionary Wayfarer
+
CDR Grindleford to Sheffield

Is it valid, on a non stopping (eg TPE / EMT) service (only one running) or am I sending some poor lady to her doom?

 

[_toommm_]

Yep - the Wayfarer is fine to be used non stop. There may be some objection to it, as is the way with the railways these days, but it is valid.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Valid.

 

[185]

Thankyou verymuch.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Is proof of validity listed somewhere online? I'm not sure the average EMT guard would accept "somebody on an internet forum said it was valid" as a justification!

 

[Merseysider]

Is proof of validity listed somewhere online? I'm not sure the average EMT guard would accept "somebody on an internet forum said it was valid" as a justification!

The Conditions of Travel should cut it

 

[_toommm_]

Condition 14.2 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT):

'If you are using a Season Ticket, daily Zonal Ticket, or another area based Ticket such as a concessionary pass, ranger or rover in conjunction with another Ticket and the last station at which one Ticket is valid and the first station that the other Ticket is valid are the same, then the train does not need to call at that station for your combination to be valid'

 

[TUC]

Condition 14.2 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT):

'If you are using a Season Ticket, daily Zonal Ticket, or another area based Ticket such as a concessionary pass, ranger or rover in conjunction with another Ticket and the last station at which one Ticket is valid and the first station that the other Ticket is valid are the same, then the train does not need to call at that station for your combination to be valid'

The problem is if the last station at which the concessionary pass is valid is defined in the conditions set by the authority issuing the pass as being the last actual stopping station. It is unclear whether in those circumstances condition14.2 is of assistance.

 

[_toommm_]

The problem is if the last station at which the concessionary pass is valid is defined in the conditions set by the authority issuing the pass as being the last actual stopping station. It is unclear whether in those circumstances condition14.2 is of assistance.

With something like a Travelmaster I believe the train still has to stop, but in terms of legality of the issue, can the fare creators e.g. TFGM, really override the NRCoT?

 

[TUC]

With something like a Travelmaster I believe the train still has to stop, but in terms of legality of the issue, can the fare creators e.g. TFGM, really override the NRCoT?

Say you are travelling from A to D and the last station inside a PTE boundsry is C, and you also have a ticket from C to D but the last station actually stopped at is B and the PTE's conditions say it that their passes are valid to the last actually stopping station, then it arguably creates a gap from B to C. If the PTE's conditions simply said 'our passes are valid to every station in our area' that would be a different matter.

It's not overriding the NrCOT. It's that a C to D ticket can't cover a B to C gap.

 

[LowLevel]

It's fine (guard on the route). Local authority products covered by non stopping trains now for splits.

 

[_toommm_]

It's fine (guard on the route). Local authority products covered by non stopping trains now for splits.

Even Travelmasters? AFAIK they still forbid it.

 

[LowLevel]

Even Travelmasters? AFAIK they still forbid it.

I don't know about those, you don't tend to see them - I'd have to look it up. I was referring to the original post about the Wayfarer.

 

[sheff1]

The Conditions of Travel should cut it

Except with the EMT guard who insists that the NRCoT do not apply on 'his train'. To be fair, I have not seen him recently, so perhaps the powers that be have finally done something.

 

[LowLevel]

The Conditions of Travel should cut it

Never under estimate the powers of pigheadedness

 

[185]

Even Travelmasters? AFAIK they still forbid it.

It was South Yorkshire PTE and it's Travelmaster silliness that caused this thread, and I wondered if it affected other products heading into their county.

SYPTE are the only PTE in the country I know of to cling on to the old 'train must stop rule' effectively rescinding 14.2. AFAIK, when SYPTE were asked about this, they blamed the private "Travelmaster" firm who run the scheme. When checked, companies house showed the Travelmaster firm as dissolved six months earlier (Jan 2018) - therefore solely the PTE and it's officers impose the rule.

I read on condition 14.3 an allowance for some tickets to have restrictive conditions added - on looking at TfGM's rules (relevant to this) it solely states

• Travel is subject to the passenger regulations and byelaws of Transport for Greater Manchester and the conditions of carriage that apply for the operators on whose services you travel.

Thus with 14.3 I think, the NCoTs apply for the Wayfarer, and recognises SYPTE / Travelmaster with their own restriction.

 

[OwlMan]

Rather than just reading 14.2 it might be helpful to read all of section 14. Sections 14.3 and 14.4 provide the exceptions to 14.2

14. Using a combination of Tickets
14.1 Unless shown below, you may use a combination of two or more Tickets to make a journey provided that the train services you use call at the station(s) where you change from one Ticket to another.
14.2 If you are using a Season Ticket, daily Zonal Ticket, or another area based Ticket such as a concessionary pass, ranger or rover in conjunction with another Ticket and the last station at which one Ticket is valid and the first station that the other Ticket is valid are the same, then the train does not need to call at that station for your combination to be valid.
14.3 Some Tickets specifically exclude their use in conjunction with other Tickets. This will be made clear in the terms and conditions when buying such Tickets, and you cannot use such a Ticket in conjunction with another except as set out in 14.1 above.
14.4 In all cases you must comply with the specific terms and conditions of each of the Tickets you are using (for example, keeping to the valid route(s) and train services for which each Ticket is valid). It is your responsibility to check that you comply with the Conditions listed above.

 

[Llandudno]

I have had confirmation by twitter from both EMT and TpExpress that a TfGM Wayfarer Plus Grindleford to Sheffield/Chesterfield Ticket is valid on the Hope Valley express services.

I have also had confirmation that the TfGM Wayfarer May be purchased at Chesterfield Station, not tried it out yet, however, I was point blank refused, somewhat rudely at Sheffield Station ticket office when trying to buy a Wayfarer a couple of months back, and told to buy one on the train, which I did within a problem!

I will be taking a screenshot of the twitter feeds on my phone next time I travel on these ticket combinations though to avoid any issues

 

[Mark Enderby]

A related question ... is a TGM Wayfarer and Derbyshire Wayfarer a valid combo for MAN to Sheff non stoppers?

Cheers
Mark

 

[robbeech]

There’s some debate about whether 2 season / rover tickets are valid on non stopping services. I’ve always took the view that they’re not.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

A related question ... is a TGM Wayfarer and Derbyshire Wayfarer a valid combo for MAN to Sheff non stoppers?

Cheers
Mark

Yes, in fact the validity overlaps with the TfGM Wayfarer being valid until Grindleford and the Derbyshire one being valid until Chinley.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

There’s some debate about whether 2 season / rover tickets are valid on non stopping services. I’ve always took the view that they’re not.

Under the old NRCoC, it was clear that the other ticket(s) had to be something other than a season ticket or zonal ticket. Under the NRCoT the second ticket (note you can no longer do multiple non-stopping splits) can, as a modicum of compensation, be any other kind of ticket.

 

[LowLevel]

There’s some debate about whether 2 season / rover tickets are valid on non stopping services. I’ve always took the view that they’re not.

I certainly accept them.

 

[superalbs]

(note you can no longer do multiple non-stopping splits)

Why? There is nothing here that seems to prohibit such an act.

If you are using a Season Ticket, daily Zonal Ticket, or another area based Ticket such as a concessionary pass, ranger or rover in conjunction with another Ticket and the last station at which one Ticket is valid and the first station that the other Ticket is valid are the same, then the train does not need to call at that station for your combination to be valid.

 

[robbeech]

Why? There is nothing here that seems to prohibit such an act.

You could argue that an overlap would not be valid.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Why? There is nothing here that seems to prohibit such an act.

It talks about "another" and "the other Ticket is not". Neither can be construed to include several tickets. Those terms would have to be something like "one or more other" and "the other Ticket(s) is/are not", like the NRCoC of old did.

I'm all for passenger rights but unfortunately you can't read in a right to do multiple non-stopping splits here!

 

[superalbs]

It talks about "another" and "the other Ticket is not". Neither can be construed to include several tickets. Those terms would have to be something like "one or more other" and "the other Ticket(s) is/are not", like the NRCoC of old did.

I'm all for passenger rights but unfortunately you can't read in a right to do multiple non-stopping splits here!

No it doesn't. It just mentions another ticket, not that such ticket cannot also be a zonal ticket.

 

[Mark Enderby]

Thanks for confirmation ... are Derbyshire Wayfarers still scratch cards? If so, can they be issued as "ordinary" tix at offices and conductors?

Mark

 

[TUC]

SYPTE are the only PTE in the country I know of to cling on to the old 'train must stop rule' effectively rescinding 14.2.

Are you sure? I emailed West Yorkshire Metro to check the position and didn't even get the courtesy of a reply.

 

[_toommm_]

Thanks for confirmation ... are Derbyshire Wayfarers still scratch cards? If so, can they be issued as "ordinary" tix at offices and conductors?

Mark

Scratch cards can be ordered through the phone number, but you can walk up to a ticket office and get one. Sheffield puts it in a special wallet to help it be more easily identified. Personally I'd try to avoid buying it on board if it's one of the big format tickets as I suspect not many bus drivers will know what that is...