142/156 Questions

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DarloRich

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Not sure where to put this question:

1) How many seats do Northern 142 and 156 units have?

2) How many standing passengers can you get on a 142 and a 156?

3) Is there a defined number allowed to stand or is it a case of squash on until no more fit?

4) How many spare Northern units are there in the north east on a Saturday?

5) How flexible are Northern diagrams to allow services to be strengthened? Say increase to 2x142 units on the Bishop Auckland line

6) IF such services were strengthened what would be the cost implications? How many extra staff so you need?
 
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driver9000

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1. For 142s it varies between around 106 and 120 depending on saloon layout. The ex-NW 156s have around 148 seats per set. The ex-ATN sets have a slightly higher seating capacity.

2. A lot.

3. Unlike buses there is no legal maximum number of standing passengers. I have seen a crush load figure stated somewhere but I can't remember where.

6. If running sets in multiple then no extra crew are required besides the Driver and Guard that would work the normal formation. I'm not sure on cost implications regarding fuel etc.
 

DarloRich

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1. For 142s it varies between around 106 and 120 depending on saloon layout. The ex-NW 156s have around 148 seats per set. The ex-ATN sets have a slightly higher seating capacity.

2. A lot.

3. Unlike buses there is no legal maximum number of standing passengers. I have seen a crush load figure stated somewhere but I can't remember where.

6. If running sets in multiple then no extra crew are required besides the Driver and Guard that would work the normal formation. I'm not sure on cost implications regarding fuel etc.
Thanks! do you not need a gaurd for each unit?
 

driver9000

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Thanks! do you not need a gaurd for each unit?
There is no need for a Guard to be in each portion. On some busy trains a fares collector may be provided but they have no operational responsibility in respect to working the train.
 

BestWestern

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In certain cases an extra Guard may be provided where specific types of train are running in pairs - the one that comes to mind is Voyagers, I believe XC provide an additional Train Manager in the extra portion, and I would guess that Virgin might do the same - but it doesn't generally apply with standard DMU stock, even if there is no through gangway connection. It's something that most Guards aren't particularly keen on, but it really wouldn't be cost effective to double crew every time.
 

TEW

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Voyagers need an extra member of staff when there is a double voyager. On all services booked for double voyagers I believe two TMs are provided, but a member of catering staff can go in one set with the TM in the other set.
 

WatcherZero

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As regards 6, The cost is mostly in leasing and fueling the train along with track access charge. Staff would be a minor percentage of the cost of strengthening.
 

aformeruser

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Note that some 142s and the former ATN 150s have had seats removed for wheelchair space.


3. Unlike buses there is no legal maximum number of standing passengers. I have seen a crush load figure stated somewhere but I can't remember where.
DfT have a target maximum number of standing for peak trains equal to 35% of the seating capacity. Obviously this figure is stupid as that means a Merseyrail 142 should be able to take more standees than an Arriva Trains Wales 150.
 

KingBBoogaloo

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Not sure where to put this question:

1) How many seats do Northern 142 and 156 units have?

2) How many standing passengers can you get on a 142 and a 156?
These figures are taken from a Freedom of Information request whaich can be found on the DfT web site.

The official capacity of a class 142 is 137 as follows:
ex fNW, 114 seats and 23 standing.
ex ATN, 106 seats and 31 standing.

And for class 156s its 224 passengers as follows:
ex fNW, 146 seats and 78 standing.
ex ATN. 152 seats and 72 standing.

If the number of passengers exceed the total then, and only then, it is deemed to be overcrowded.
 
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jopsuk

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There is no need for a Guard to be in each portion. On some busy trains a fares collector may be provided but they have no operational responsibility in respect to working the train.
Indeed. On the DOO lines of the south east, it is possible for a train to be formed of three units with no inter-unit gangway (365s, 321s etc) to be operated with only a single member of staff (the driver) on board the formation- no guard at all.
 

WatcherZero

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The other thing is a service is only deemed to be standing room only if people have to stand for more than 20 minutes, if they have to stand for less than 20 minutes then as far as the Government is concerned their not standing.
 

aformeruser

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The other thing is a service is only deemed to be standing room only if people have to stand for more than 20 minutes, if they have to stand for less than 20 minutes then as far as the Government is concerned their not standing.
20 minutes at peak time only though - before 09:30 and between 16:00 and 18:30. Outside peak times there should no standing. However, the only obligation TOCs have if they can't meet those targets is to discuss extra capacity with PTEs and DfT as applicable, which DfT can just say 'no' to when it involves buying new trains.
 

BestWestern

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Indeed. On the DOO lines of the south east, it is possible for a train to be formed of three units with no inter-unit gangway (365s, 321s etc) to be operated with only a single member of staff (the driver) on board the formation- no guard at all.
Indeed. Extremely safe, not :|
 

John55

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The other thing is a service is only deemed to be standing room only if people have to stand for more than 20 minutes, if they have to stand for less than 20 minutes then as far as the Government is concerned their not standing.
The definition is as follows (from DfT) PiXC - Passengers in excess of capacity;

The PiXC measure considers the planned standard class capacity of each service arriving at or departing from London, and the actual number of standard class passengers on the service at the point where the passenger load is highest. PiXC is the number of standard class passengers that exceed the planned standard class capacity for the service, so is the difference between the two if the number of passengers on the service is greater than the capacity, or zero if the number of passengers is within the capacity.

The standard class capacity is based on the booked formation of the service. It includes the number of standard class seats on the train and may include an allowance for standing room. No allowance for standing is made when a service has no stops for more than 20 minutes before (AM) or after (PM) the point where the passenger load is highest, but it is allowed when there is a stop within 20 minutes. The allowance for standing varies with the type of rolling stock but, for modern sliding door stock, it is typically approximately 35 per cent of the number of seats.

It allows some standing on a service for up to 20 minutes but not for longer. It does count standing passengers if in excess of the seats plus the standing allowance so does not disregard standing passengers on journeys less than 20 minutes.
 
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