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148mph HST with Valenta...but with MTU?

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dstrat

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As the title says :)

Whilst the achieved their crowning record with the Valenta engines (I assuming here), what are we to reckon they could do with the MTUs?

Faster? Slower? Don't really know?

thanks
 
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STEVIEBOY1

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As the title says :)

Whilst the achieved their crowning record with the Valenta engines (I assuming here), what are we to reckon they could do with the MTUs?

Faster? Slower? Don't really know?

thanks

Sorry, but what is MTU?:
 

317666

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Sorry, but what is MTU?

MTU is the engine manufacturer who made the current engines fitted to all HST power cars (bar those used by East Midlands Trains).

As for the original question, the MTU engines are more powerful than the old Valentas but are currently downrated to match the Valenta performance. The MTU engines are capable of 2,700hp but the Valentas were only 2,250hp. So with this extra horsepower, if the MTU engine was unrestricted, I reckon a higher speed would be achievable, although whether another record run is ever going to happen is unlikely if you ask me.
 

STEVIEBOY1

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MTU is the engine manufacturer who made the current engines fitted to all HST power cars (bar those used by East Midlands Trains).

As for the original question, the MTU engines are more powerful than the old Valentas but are currently downrated to match the Valenta performance. The MTU engines are capable of 2,700hp but the Valentas were only 2,250hp. So with this extra horsepower, if the MTU engine was unrestricted, I reckon a higher speed would be achievable, although whether another record run is ever going to happen is unlikely if you ask me.

Ahh, ok, thank you for explaining that. I had heard of Valenta. :D
 

starrymarkb

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Sorry, but what is MTU?:

Motor Turbine Union. Formed from the merger of the non-road engine divisions of Maybach and Mercedes Benz. Maybach had previously supplied engines for the Western Region Hydraulics*... It was recently split off from Daimler and is now independent.

*Western Region habits die hard ;)
 

fgwrich

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Motor Turbine Union. Formed from the merger of the non-road engine divisions of Maybach and Mercedes Benz. Maybach had previously supplied engines for the Western Region Hydraulics*... It was recently split off from Daimler and is now independent.

*Western Region habits die hard ;)

And that's why they sound so good! ;) :)

Independant...But one of it's major shareholders is... Rolls Royce. Now, i don't remember any mass media outpouring when a British Company took a major stake in a German company.
 

rebmcr

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It depends on whether the limiting factor was the engine, the motors, or something indirect like the bogies, suspension, wheels, aerodynamics, etc.
 

tsr

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I'd love to see another attempt at the record, and it might highlight the longevity of the design and the train's long-lasting capabilities. A 40th birthday celebration, perhaps?

Whereabouts in the UK would the infrastructure support a record attempt over 148mph? I'm not saying it's either possible or impossible where it was originally tried, nor that an attempt on any section of track would be practical today. I'm just interested as to where this could happen.
 

ainsworth74

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Whereabouts in the UK would the infrastructure support a record attempt over 148mph?

Well traditionally it's been the southern end of the ECML that the big records have been set (though the WCML and GWML have all had their moments) and that remains aside from HS1 some of the fastest infrastructure on the network. Problem is, however, all the routes where you could attempt such a run are now very much busier than they were back in the day. So I'm not sure there is anywhere where it would be practical.
 

Yew

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I wonder if there would be any difference between the MTU's and the VP185's?

One of my lecturers worked for paxman when they made the vp185, I'll see if he knows anything?
 

317666

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I wonder if there would be any difference between the MTU's and the VP185's?

One of my lecturers worked for paxman when they made the vp185, I'll see if he knows anything?

Off the top of my head, the VP185 is less powerful than either a Valenta or an MTU. I think the best bet for a new speed record would be to use an MTU power car, with the engine unrestricted.
 

Wolfie

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And that's why they sound so good! ;) :)

Independant...But one of it's major shareholders is... Rolls Royce. Now, i don't remember any mass media outpouring when a British Company took a major stake in a German company.

MTU also build aeroengines, that is why. RR quite happily sold their own diesel engine capability off to Perkins (US owned I believe) years ago.
 

GNER 91128

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Well traditionally it's been the southern end of the ECML that the big records have been set (though the WCML and GWML have all had their moments) and that remains aside from HS1 some of the fastest infrastructure on the network. Problem is, however, all the routes where you could attempt such a run are now very much busier than they were back in the day. So I'm not sure there is anywhere where it would be practical.

I'm sure if you could get a clean run down Stoke Bank you could achieve it, but whether there is an appetite of these exciting one off events is another matter.
 

ainsworth74

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I'm sure if you could get a clean run down Stoke Bank you could achieve it, but whether there is an appetite of these exciting one off events is another matter.

Though it's not just a clear run down Stoke Bank, you'll need to have a clear run for some distance on either side all whilst travelling faster than anything else on the line. I'm not saying it's impossible but I would be willing to gamble that it would 'fun' to try and path.
 

GNER 91128

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Though it's not just a clear run down Stoke Bank, you'll need to have a clear run for some distance on either side all whilst travelling faster than anything else on the line. I'm not saying it's impossible but I would be willing to gamble that it would 'fun' to try and path.

Oh I agree! I'm just saying whether anyone with authority over such things would be too bothered about such an attempt.


It would be nice to be on a footbridge where I am in Werrington and see it thunder through though :D
 

sprinterguy

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Well traditionally it's been the southern end of the ECML that the big records have been set (though the WCML and GWML have all had their moments) and that remains aside from HS1 some of the fastest infrastructure on the network. Problem is, however, all the routes where you could attempt such a run are now very much busier than they were back in the day. So I'm not sure there is anywhere where it would be practical.
Not only the Southern end of the ECML. The passenger carrying HST speed record (of 144mph - The ultimate 148mph record was set in 1987 with a pretty short test rake) was set on the "racing stretch" between York and Northallerton which is as well renowned as Stoke Bank for it's credentials as a proving ground for high speed running. The prototype HST attained speeds of 133mph, 141mph and then it's own personal record of 143.2mph on three separate days over the York to Northallerton section. The four track formation over this section of route would probably still provide sufficient capacity to "fettle" an HST up to 140mph or more.
 

37798

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Though it's not just a clear run down Stoke Bank, you'll need to have a clear run for some distance on either side all whilst travelling faster than anything else on the line. I'm not saying it's impossible but I would be willing to gamble that it would 'fun' to try and path.

The ECML around that area is signalled for 140mph running (with flashing greens etc) so I think a bit of top end testing wouldnt be too much of an issue....!
 

TGV

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Between Grantham and Peterborough is the traditional location for record speed attempts.

In fact due to many 1 in 40 gradients on CTRL, it's likely that the ECML is still the best place in the country for classic-line rolling stock to achieve records - if there was ever such a desire to do so again, which I doubt anyway.
 

ryan125hst

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MTU is the engine manufacturer who made the current engines fitted to all HST power cars (bar those used by East Midlands Trains).

As for the original question, the MTU engines are more powerful than the old Valentas but are currently downrated to match the Valenta performance. The MTU engines are capable of 2,700hp but the Valentas were only 2,250hp. So with this extra horsepower, if the MTU engine was unrestricted, I reckon a higher speed would be achievable, although whether another record run is ever going to happen is unlikely if you ask me.

Weren't they downgraded to match the power of the traction motors? The MTU engines might be able to produce more power, but if the motors can transfer the power to the rails without overheating, its no use!

They would need new motors (and probably other equipment to control the motors) if they were to use all 2,700hp, which is unlikely to happen this late into their lives.

I would love to see it happen though! :D
 

ainsworth74

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The ultimate 148mph record was set in 1987 with a pretty short test rake) was set on the "racing stretch" between York and Northallerton which is as well renowned as Stoke Bank for it's credentials as a proving ground for high speed running.

Good grief how could I forget that bit of line I only travelled over it yesterday! Of course that would be the other option and I suppose if there is going to be anywhere this is possible it'll be there.

The ECML around that area is signalled for 140mph running (with flashing greens etc) so I think a bit of top end testing wouldnt be too much of an issue....!

The problem is not the signalling it's trying to fit a train into the rather full ECML. BR did tests like this on infrastructure signalled (and cleared) for 125mph and less even in some locations.
 

Peter Mugridge

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Whereabouts in the UK would the infrastructure support a record attempt over 148mph? I'm not saying it's either possible or impossible where it was originally tried, nor that an attempt on any section of track would be practical today. I'm just interested as to where this could happen.


How about overnight out of traffic hours under sole posession* on the LGV Angleterre ( HS1 ) from St Pancras to Ashford?! It's technically possible...




*The small matter of the HSTs not having the TVM signalling system fitted.....
 

Peter Mugridge

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True, but from memory it's generally downhill from Ebbsfleet towards Ashford isn't it? The worst bit will be coming out of the Thames Tunnel towards Ebbsfleet - though the entrance would give a downhill boost!

As long as it can get up to a decent speed on the first few sections it should be OK; lost a bit of speed on the Rainham flyover but then it'll be a steep plunge into the Thames tunnel, so should have enough momentum not to lose too much speed climbing back out, then pick up again from Ebbsfleet itself and just keep pushing until you need to brake for Ashford...?

Might need some kind of manual warning signal at the braking point, though, as it would be at night on a line with no lineside signalling - some sort of cluster of flashing lights at the relevant point - beacons on a pair of emergency vehicles parked at a safe distance near the lineside, maybe???
 

rebmcr

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True, but from memory it's generally downhill from Ebbsfleet towards Ashford isn't it? The worst bit will be coming out of the Thames Tunnel towards Ebbsfleet - though the entrance would give a downhill boost!

As long as it can get up to a decent speed on the first few sections it should be OK; lost a bit of speed on the Rainham flyover but then it'll be a steep plunge into the Thames tunnel, so should have enough momentum not to lose too much speed climbing back out, then pick up again from Ebbsfleet itself and just keep pushing until you need to brake for Ashford...?

Might need some kind of manual warning signal at the braking point, though, as it would be at night on a line with no lineside signalling - some sort of cluster of flashing lights at the relevant point - beacons on a pair of emergency vehicles parked at a safe distance near the lineside, maybe???

Flashing might be an issue with a rule-of-thumb 7 seconds of visibility at speed. A steady blue light would be pretty distinct though.
 

Peter Mugridge

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Not sure.... the eye is drawn to motion; the flashing lights should be more noticable - you'd want more than 7 seconds for something like this anyway and they should be the only lights visible in any case? Plus... it's multiple lights even with only one emergency vehicle; with two or three it's a certainty that you couldn't miss it.

Maybe some other temporary system could be rigged up, like a big screen system.

At this point I should say that just because such a run would be technically possible it doesn't mean it is feasible... ;)
 

HSTEd

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Couldn't they just have someone by the track with a GSM-R handset who could signal the driver when the train passed?
Or if the handset has an emergency top button on it, have the man press it.
 

gimmea50anyday

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Would no doubt be exciting and fun! The limitations of the motors will no doubt limit the performance of the power car and its maximum speed. Think the age of the hst's may also be a factor as the running gear must be knocking on the door of 35 years old using technology that must be approaching 50.

I would love to see a point to point race between different traction. Say York to Northallerton between a hst, mk4, 365, 158, 185, 220, pendo etc. Standing start from platform 5 at York. Main line all the way permission to exceed speed where safe to do so, cruise control and speed limiters disabled. Formations also altered to lighten loads but still within safe tolerances and practice. My money would be on the pendo to win, but think the 185 would come a close second, especially if a certain legendary driver was at the helm!
 
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junglejames

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The ECML is no longer signalled for 140mph running. The flashing greens are no longer.
The MTU is derated because of the traction motors. The VP185 is also derated because of the traction motors.
 

DaveNewcastle

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Since when have the flashing greens between Stoke Jn and Werrington Jn been disabled? I can't say I look out for them, but I can confirm that they've definitely been flashing within the past month.
 
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