16-25 Railcard and 1st Class Fares

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bb21

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... Having been drinking with some cambridge fellows, I can tell you they get more drunk and more rowdy than anyone else I've known. Drinking and luid behaviour isn't a working and middle class problem, it's all of sociaty. ...
Has anyone on here been out on a pi** up with Cambridge fellows? I work with a guy who graduated from Cambridge and he always tells us stories about the general standards of behaviour around College dinner tables. Good laughs they were. :D
 
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bengolding

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First Class is supposed to be an exclusive atmosphere. Unfourtunately I feel TOCs have eroded that atmosphere away with ultra-cheap First Advances that attract people who THINK they are better than everyone else and then act like a tit on board, (whilst sitting next to somebody with a £400 FOS).
That reminds me of an episode last week on a mid-week off peak Virgin service to Euston which was non-stop after Crewe. Before departure, the guard makes a quick announcement about advance tickets plust relevant in-date railcards. On checking the student type passenger's ticket, they're asked for the Young Persons railcard. Student says they have forgotten it, and is told to buy a new ticket. After several minutes of arguing, the guard offers to 'let them off this time' but requests they move into Standard. The passenger had already taken advantage of the complimentary offering including copious amounts of alcohol!

My understanding is that only certain TOCs offer discounts on First Advance fares with 16-25 railcards. As someone who buys First Anytime tickets, I have no problem with students travelling First Class as long as they behave appropriately. Indeed, my main gripe is the self-important business types on expenses (who I find are often civil servants with First Class travel paid for by us), who occupy all 4 seats with their belongings, only removing them grudgingly when asked despite the carriage clearly being busy.
 

All Line Rover

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*cough*, *cough* - NRE aren't always great at giving correct information!

I would kindly direct you to the Railcard's Terms & Conditions, where this little advertised clause 8 exists:
"Discounted tickets are not valid for travel in First Class, except for some First Class Advance fares with selected Train Companies and upgrades to First Class at weekends upon payment of the appropriate supplement (all subject to availability)."

This contradicts NRE, and even contradics the 16-25 Railcard website in the "What do you get?" section: "Your 16-25 Railcard will save you 1/3 on rail fares including all Standard and First Class Advance tickets."

However, the T&C's take precedence. For example, you can't get 1/3 off Advance tickets on the Arriva Premier Service using a 16-25 Railcard.

I may raise this issue with ATOC though (they are very quick about telling NRE to correct things!). You never know - they might even decide to allow the Railcard to be used on all First Class Advance fares! :D (Which would be highly surprising!)
 

Flamingo

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Personally, I think that NO railcard discounts should be allowed on ANY First Class tickets.

The trip may be compulsory, but making it in First Class is optional.

Give a discount for frequent travelers who may have no choice but use the railway. But First Class is a premium product, and by introducing discounts onto it, it is devaluing it.

BTW, what is the point of having a railcard for everybody? Why not just have lower fares?
 
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WestCoast

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BTW, what is the point of having a railcard for everybody? Why not just have lower fares?
Well the everybody qualifies DB BahnCard is about £200 and entitles the user to 50% off fares in 2nd class (there is a dearer one for first class at £400). So, you are paying for your discount, it's not like the UK's comparatively cheap railcards for certain groups.
 
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Darandio

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Absurdly high car insurance premiums precludes many from getting a car and they have to travel somehow.
Please don't use that one when referring to why there should be a 16-25 railcard. I am now 30 and still pay an absurdly high premium, on a family saloon car and no points or endorsements.

I guess that puts me at a complete loss, I don't qualify for a railcard (soon I can get a family one but most of my travelling is done alone so it is irrelevant anyway!) so I have to pay any price offered with no discount.

Then, for essential journeys I have to use the car, meaning I need to be insured regardless of the extortionate amount charged plus ridiculous fuel prices to boot.

Many of us always say "I wish I was younger" but it is now completely true from a financial standpoint! Those who are lucky enough to qualify for any type of railcard discount should savour what they have, not complain they don't have enough!
 

lyesbkz

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100 quid, then the same 30somthing price for people who would hold a 16-25/Oap/f+f railcard?
I think the idea was to have a £100 (or whatever price) railcard for everybody (the idea being that everyone has exactly the same product available, and it's more fair)
 

ainsworth74

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I think the idea was to have a £100 (or whatever price) railcard for everybody
I think the Germans have the right idea (I promise I'm not really a German fanboy :lol:). On the Bahncard 50 (which is 230eur for a std class card or 460eur for 1st class) those that are currently students under 27, children or people over 60 can get the Bahncard 50 for half price. Which seems reasonable.
 

Liam

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I think the idea was to have a £100 (or whatever price) railcard for everybody (the idea being that everyone has exactly the same product available, and it's more fair)
Perhaps it should cost the same as the existing railcards, but offer less discount, say 25% rather than 33%.
 

WestCoast

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I think the Germans have the right idea (I promise I'm not really a German fanboy :lol:). On the Bahncard 50 (which is 230eur for a std class card or 460eur for 1st class) those that are currently students under 27, children or people over 60 can get the Bahncard 50 for half price. Which seems reasonable.
As I've said before, it's a very sensible idea. UK rail ticketing makes little sense most of the time, DB is more practical and it wouldn't hurt to copy them on this one...;)
 

lyesbkz

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Perhaps it should cost the same as the existing railcards, but offer less discount, say 25% rather than 33%.
Personally I disagree here, since the railcards reward more frequent travellers. Lowering the saving percentage to maintain the cost of the card does the opposite - it'd be a benefit for those who travel less and a loss for those of us who'd still have to pay £26 but then only save 25%.
 

WestCoast

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Perhaps it should cost the same as the existing railcards, but offer less discount, say 25% rather than 33%.
It's an idea I suppose, but just 8% less at current prices for everyone seems a bit too costly for the system, 15-20% would be more revenue focused. However, then the argument for it is weaker.
 

DaveNewcastle

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Personally, I think that NO railcard discounts should be allowed on ANY First Class tickets.

The trip may be compulsory, but making it in First Class is optional.
I'm inclined to agree. Certainly with our current offerings of Railcards, anyone (including the OP) can travel First Class whenever they wish on exactly the same tariffs as anyone else.
No 'discrimination' and no need to buy a Railcard.
But the offer is still there for those who qualify and who choose to pay the extra price (for the Railcard) and who just want to make the journey.

Give a discount for frequent travelers who may have no choice but use the railway.
That's a rather different issue, which does seem to be attractive, but I have doubts. eg. A Local Authority, a Travel Agent or any large-ish company buys all its tickets 'on the discounted account'.
Or, if the Railcards are somehow tied to an individual, then can we equate an appropriate discount for someone who commutes 3 miles twice a day (12 journeys/week = 36miles) to someone who takes less than 4 journeys some weeks but averaging 1000-2000 miles a week?
. . . . . the railcards reward more frequent travellers. Lowering the saving percentage to maintain the cost of the card does the opposite - it'd be a benefit for those who travel less and a loss for those of us who'd still have to pay £26 but then only save 25%.
Exactly!

what is the point of having a railcard for everybody? Why not just have lower fares?
Look. If you're going to insist on carrying on talking sense like this, then why don't you just get yourself over to ATOC and tell them how to manage a useless bunch of Railway Operators?
Someone has to!

100 quid, then the same 30somthing price for people who would hold a 16-25/Oap/f+f railcard?
What?
How can that sort of thinking (whatever the price) make economic sense to most travellers or most TOCs?
Some people commute regular very short and very cheap journeys. And some make very long and very expensive journeys. Where does a fixed price Card help?
Most TOCs provide carriage for short distance travellers (and luggage and prams and bikes) and also for long distance travellers (and luggage and prams and bikes) and they all have to provide a lot of staff, pay a lot for their stock, pay a lot for their station access, pay a lot for their track access. So where do discounts for passengers really engage with eonomies of cost?
And where do OAPs come into it? I know some (and can think of many more) highly regarded professionals, creatives and dedicated socialites who have Senior Railcards and are not OAPs. But perhaps that's the same category-error as referring to holders of 16-25 Railcards (all of them) as some stereotyped undesirable person? We wouldn't make that mistake on here, would we?
 
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Eng274

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Many of us always say "I wish I was younger" but it is now completely true from a financial standpoint! Those who are lucky enough to qualify for any type of railcard discount should savour what they have, not complain they don't have enough!
I turned 25 recently, and I am presently on the last 16-25 YPRC renewal I can buy :(:( I've been buying them for seven years now (well, the first four were free with a NatWest bank account, but shhh...) and the amount of money I've saved over the years is phenomenal. This year alone I have paid my railcard many times over through various trips to London and the Midlands, and ad-hoc trips to Fife and Glasgow.

Younger 'uns, do savour your railcard, get as much mileage out of them as you can! I am not looking forward to December 2011 when I have to give it up for good, as I will no longer be a student then either and cannot renew on that basis.

My Mum was surprised when I told her of the £9.55 1st advances I got to Lancaster last year, and I haven't the heart to tell her her family card will be useless in first class when she wants to visit me :lol: I wouldn't wish my younger siblings on anybody in first class, even ersehole businesspeople!
 

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16-25s deserve something back off society, a lot of it would simply appear to be jealousy
Preposterous. I have a 16-25, Disabled Adult, and Priv cards. Very grateful I am too for the *discretionary* discounts they offer. 16-25 year olds like you and I don't "deserve something back" - I find your sense of entitlement infuriating.

Be grateful for what you have.
 

WestCoast

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How can that sort of thinking (whatever the price) make economic sense to most travellers or most TOCs?
Some people commute regular very short and very cheap journeys. And some make very long and very expensive journeys. Where does a fixed price Card help?
Well, taking personal circumstances into account, if it's not worth buying the card then people won't buy it. But it's common sense that if you're going to be making savings with a railcard such as this, it's worth buying it. The TOCs get money up front for it and if it follows the DB model at £200ish for a 50% saving on all fares. It rewards those who know they are going to be travelling regularly and are willing to "part-pay", if you like, in advance, but still saving over completely full price fares and thus encouraging further travel. Therefore, it's potentially more economical for the TOCs.

If you fall into one of the groups, i.e. 16-25, then it is reduced. Different tiers of saving (i.e. 50% or 25%) depending on railcard price - discounts on all fares i.e. peak or off-peak.

It seems logical to me and works in other places, why won't it work in the UK? Is it too simple? :roll:
 
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Darandio

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Younger 'uns, do savour your railcard,
Well, obviously all don't!

But I realy enjoyed your post, I never actually had a railcard at your age simply because I very rarely travelled so I can understand how you would feel with it coming to and end. Welcome to my world. :lol:
 

YorkshireBear

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I do see why, if you can afford first class maybe you shouldnt get the discount... however thats not to say i agree with that at all.

without a railcard i could not afford the amount for ail travel i currently do so i rarely buy first class fares. however the other day i searched grantham leeds on a sunday night and found first class advance was the cheapest avaliable fare for the 3 trains i could catch :) result i think :D
 

SS4

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I do see why, if you can afford first class maybe you shouldnt get the discount... however thats not to say i agree with that at all.

without a railcard i could not afford the amount for ail travel i currently do so i rarely buy first class fares. however the other day i searched grantham leeds on a sunday night and found first class advance was the cheapest avaliable fare for the 3 trains i could catch :) result i think :D
I had that on an XC to Paignton. Ironically there was an issue with the stock and first class was rammed so ended up in standard anyway (but £13 better off and still got hot tea)
 

jon0844

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I think the idea was to have a £100 (or whatever price) railcard for everybody (the idea being that everyone has exactly the same product available, and it's more fair)
No, I still think you should keep the YPRC and senior railcards, at lower prices, but have something for the time in between.

The railcard has to be sufficiently expensive to allow for quite large discounts (more likely 33% than 50%) and reward those who travel a lot. Why give super discounts to everyone if they only make one or two trips a year? I can accept the argument that we should simply cut all fares, but that's wishful thinking and clearly will never happen - at least not until the tax payer is expected to foot the bill.

Also, even if you got 50% off - now you've paid a fair bit for your railcard, you'll be more inclined to use it - so the railway gets 50% of money you may not otherwise spend. I guess you could also do like DB and have two versions, with only one offering money off first class. Or just have discounts for first class only at certain times, e.g. weekends and bank holidays.
 

BestWestern

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This arguement raises the issue of discrimination law. With the insurance industry currently being hammered for offering biased premiums dependant on sex (...which sex you are, not how much you might be having :D) it's plausible that at some point the current Railcard situation could be called into question, being based on people's ages to a large degree. Would the discrimination laws really entertain the idea that those aged 16-25 and those old enough to qualify for a Senior RC should get a bargain, but not those in between? Certainly the criteria is a little obscure to say the least.

I agree that First Class should remain exclusive, and the concept of dirt cheap Advance First fares is a nonsence, but I do feel that all RC holders should be entitled, again purely on the basis of fairness. Children aren't barred from FC, so why should a F&F Railcard not qualify? Based what seems to be ATOC's logic, those in user groups who "shouldn't" be using FC are unlikely to pay the additional premium anyway, and are much more likely to end up in First through buying an Advance priced at less than their normal standard class fare. Regardless of what discounts have been given, if a passenger's behaviour is not acceptable then they will be dealt with accordingly.

Whilst you're at it, perhaps those who have been in contact with ATOC could also suggest a requirement for the Railcard serial number to be given when purchasing tickets, to stop the current widespread abuse of the system?! Ta ;)
 

First class

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This arguement raises the issue of discrimination law. With the insurance industry currently being hammered for offering biased premiums dependant on sex (...which sex you are, not how much you might be having :D) it's plausible that at some point the current Railcard situation could be called into question, being based on people's ages to a large degree. Would the discrimination laws really entertain the idea that those aged 16-25 and those old enough to qualify for a Senior RC should get a bargain, but not those in between? Certainly the criteria is a little obscure to say the least.
IF IT WAS ILLEGAL, It may backfire spectacularly on anyone who challenges it. ATOC would simply say:

a) Child fares withdrawn so a 50% increase
b) Railcards withdrawn a 34% increase. Disabled railcard? That is surely discriminating against people without problems?
c) Any offers like Grand Central's "Tickets for Seniors" promo

etc....

Oh and those bus passes for pensioners, surely discriminatory? They'd have to go...



(Btw I don't believe it is against the law).
 

bb21

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IF IT WAS ILLEGAL, It may backfire spectacularly on anyone who challenges it. ATOC would simply say:

a) Child fares withdrawn so a 50% increase
b) Railcards withdrawn a 34% increase. Disabled railcard? That is surely discriminating against people without problems?
c) Any offers like Grand Central's "Tickets for Seniors" promo

etc....

Oh and those bus passes for pensioners, surely discriminatory? They'd have to go...



(Btw I don't believe it is against the law).
Don't give Cameron ideas. :lol:
 

ainsworth74

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IF IT WAS ILLEGAL, It may backfire spectacularly on anyone who challenges it.
Well isn't that exactly what happened with the whole car insurance discrimination hoopla a couple of months ago? It was decided that charging guys more than girls was unfair so the insurance companies raised the girls insurance to match the guys! This seems to be a pretty good example that even when something that is unfair is overturned it normally still doesn't end well for the consumer.
 

Anon Mouse

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I've always found it an odd rule and it annoyed me greatly when I had a Young Persons Railcard, but thats what the rule is, however its possible for on train staff and booking offices to issuie them and I've seen loads of YP 1st anytime tickets so I don't know how that can be explained, I'm not gonna TI anyone with a more expensive ticket than they are entitled too!

Somebody made a point about Students 'not being good candidates for 1st class', Some 1st class advances are cheaper than Anytime standard tickets, and the way some of those people behave can be terrible and even some who pay top dollar can act badly too (especially when there has been horse racing on in my experience) so I find that point a little stupid if I may say so and it certainly does not hold water.
 

WelshBluebird

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Please don't use that one when referring to why there should be a 16-25 railcard. I am now 30 and still pay an absurdly high premium, on a family saloon car and no points or endorsements.
Depends on your point of view though.
I've known people who are in their 30's complain that their insurance was absurdly high, but it turned out to be around £800. For someone my age, £800 would be very cheap! (I don't drive because of the cost, but if I did my quotes would be around £1700).

In terms of the 16-25 railcard, I'm more than happy with mine. Am on my 4th year of having one now, and have probably saved upwards of £500 in total.
 

jon0844

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The no-claims discount is one reason why a new driver pays so much more, in addition to weighting/loading that takes into account age/experience.

New drivers get stung heavily, but the stats do seem to prove there's justification for doing so. I just think the loadings are too high, which encourages people to not bother to get insurance or do the usual tricks (become a named driver).
 
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