16-25 Railcard and 1st Class Fares

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Nym

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Depends on your point of view though.
I've known people who are in their 30's complain that their insurance was absurdly high, but it turned out to be around £800. For someone my age, £800 would be very cheap! (I don't drive because of the cost, but if I did my quotes would be around £1700)
Many a time pepole have complained at me that their car insurance is £50, £60, £70/month

When I say, Yeah, mine's still £155/month after two years claim free driving, they tend to shut up, I had to drive for work, and still do have to drive for work, theres no trains to Trafford Park at 10pm, the cost of inter-reigonal travel on trains across the north is scandalous, I can get to London for less than it costs to get to Cottingham.

And regarding 'inexperienced drivers' etc. Yes younger drivers have a lot of accidents, and I'm trying not to quote clarkson, but older drivers and T**ts in their 30s and 40s on mobiles or fighting with kids cause plenty aswell.

And one insurance company tried to claim that because I was younger I wasn't as gooder driver, "So thats why I've got a full licence, pass plus and full IAM (Institute of Advanced Motorists) membership then?"

Whats worse is that it's not gone down in 2 years, my first year was £155/mo, this year it was ment to be £199/month but I somhow argued them back down to £154 and my renewal says £180/month! Two years claim free driving, thanks...
 
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gordonthemoron

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£100 is probably around the right figure, the costs for bahncards for comparisson are:


25 - €57 2nd class/€115 1st class
50 - €230 2nd class/€460 1st class
100 - €3,800 2nd class/€6,400 1st class
 

gordonthemoron

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I had considered getting a bahncard100, moving to Nuremberg and commuting to work in Munich (the rents are cheaper there plus there's lots of nice pubs) but in the end I couldn't be bothered
 

WestCoast

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Do such cheap annual season tickets cause massive overcrowding on long distance peak hour ICE trains?
It very much depends on the route of course, both the ICE and the regional trains can get very busy in peak hours on strategic routes. Additional capacity is provided with the double-decker stock and longer units (on regional services). On the route I frequently use when I'm over there, the IC trains often seem overcrowded.

All passengers are charged for seat reservations - so the option to secure a seat is there for an additional fee per journey. It's not like in the UK where season ticket holders reserve seats en masse where they can, and then don't use them - East Coast out of Kings Cross is an example of this.
 

bb21

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Just imagining the thought of paying under £3,500 for a year's unlimited travel in the UK, when Newcastle-London annual season is over £16,000...

If they can do it, why can't we?
Taking FirstGroup, Stagecoach, Go-Ahead Group, etc off the London Stock Exchange would be a start.
 

radamfi

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It should be possible to introduce a national Railcard with no overall loss of revenue. If you assume a totally unchanged level of patronage then regular fares would need to rise slightly to pay for the discounts given to Railcard holders. There may also be some loss of patronage from non-Railcard holders because of higher fares.

However, if extra trips are made by Railcard holders then that may outweigh any loss of revenue lost from non-Railcard holders. If Railcard holders make many more trips that might mean that regular fares might not need to rise to pay for the Railcard.
 

jon0844

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It could also mean more efficient use of stock at off-peak times, and if someone opts to make a journey by rail instead of by car (as againt making a journey they otherwise wouldn't have made at all) then there's another benefit from an environmental point of view.
 

radamfi

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I presume there is an economic case for the Network Railcard. If the TOCs lost money because of it, it would have been scrapped by now.
 

Greenback

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It could also mean more efficient use of stock at off-peak times, and if someone opts to make a journey by rail instead of by car (as againt making a journey they otherwise wouldn't have made at all) then there's another benefit from an environmental point of view.
That is also an argument in favour of very cheap Advance fares to encourage use of less busy trains! Infuiriatingly, as I am in favour of lower walk up fares (and a national railcard) and higher Advance fares!

I presume there is an economic case for the Network Railcard. If the TOCs lost money because of it, it would have been scrapped by now.
Some TOC's would be delighted if it were scrapped. IIRC the imposition of evening restrictions was a compromise agreement to save the card from extinction. Or at least, that's what has been claimed... :o
 

jon0844

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Advance tickets have their place, but I'd like to have a system that allows me a discount on walk-up fares.

Given I already have this in the form of 33% off with my season ticket, including other people with me, it's already proven that it works. All I want is for it to be nationwide.

And I'd be willing to pay £100 or so for such a railcard. I know I'd travel more, as it would mean waking up on a nice sunny Saturday or Sunday and thinking 'let's go somewhere by train today'.

I can, and do, travel like this with the wife already - in the former NSE area. Go further and it means advance tickets, which are - obviously - more restrictive.
 

Greenback

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That is what I want as well. I can't disagree with the cocnept of Advance tickets, for me it is sensible to have a book ahead discounted product in return for restrictions.

The problem is that I am now arguing with myself over whether silly Advance fares like £5 for London to Cardiff could be justified on environmental grounds!

I would also like more benefits with my annual season - it's a great saving over a year, but I cna;t get discounts for my wife or friends!
 

radamfi

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Some TOC's would be delighted if it were scrapped. IIRC the imposition of evening restrictions was a compromise agreement to save the card from extinction. Or at least, that's what has been claimed... :o
Which evening restrictions are those?

If the TOCs wanted to scrap it then they could do so as it is unregulated.
 

furryfeet

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Personally, I think that NO railcard discounts should be allowed on ANY First Class tickets.

The trip may be compulsory, but making it in First Class is optional.

Give a discount for frequent travelers who may have no choice but use the railway. But First Class is a premium product, and by introducing discounts onto it, it is devaluing it.

BTW, what is the point of having a railcard for everybody? Why not just have lower fares?
three points:-
a) if there are NO railcard discounts in 1st class, how do you propose to fill the (many) empty seats ?
b) how would you tempt the "occaisional traveller" to use the train if there are no discounts for such people ?
c) the point of having railcards is to get people to travel byrail, who otherwise would not, as stated elsewhere on this thread.

p.s. there is no doubt that having lower walk-on fares would increase passenger numbers, but in the current situation, where franchises are effectively monopolies, this is very unlikely to happen.
 

jon0844

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There's no reason not to offer discounts on first class tickets. Given the fare is higher in the first place, you are still going to pay more - which is more money for the railway, and off-peak, hardly likely to result in it being too crowded.

Weekend First is open to everyone and I've used this many times, so it's not as if it is to be kept reserved for those on expenses, the rich or politicians who don't like to mix with the plebs. In the case of Weekend First, it's a nice easy £20 or £25 for the TOC for providing a cup of tea, a few refills (or ten!) and biscuits - with a total cost of maybe 50p-£1 tops.
 

Greenback

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Which evening restrictions are those?

If the TOCs wanted to scrap it then they could do so as it is unregulated.
Sorry, my memory is failing! I meant the minimum fare!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
There's no reason not to offer discounts on first class tickets. Given the fare is higher in the first place, you are still going to pay more - which is more money for the railway, and off-peak, hardly likely to result in it being too crowded.

Weekend First is open to everyone and I've used this many times, so it's not as if it is to be kept reserved for those on expenses, the rich or politicians who don't like to mix with the plebs. In the case of Weekend First, it's a nice easy £20 or £25 for the TOC for providing a cup of tea, a few refills (or ten!) and biscuits - with a total cost of maybe 50p-£1 tops.
I agree. There should be discounts. The pricing structure has changed a lot since railcards came in, as has the travel market. I cna see the sense for what was introduced in the 1970's but times change and products need to be updated.
 

calypso1802

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My daughter and her friend (both 16) are travelling to st ives Cornwall in the summer and i have thought about paying extra for them to travel 1st class as it is rather a long journey - but can you use the rail card for discount - bit confused by this whole thread really.! As i was going to buy railcards for them?

And just because they are 16 doesn't mean they are noisy layabout students!

And what are the perks of 1st class travel i know they get more space and comfier seats but is there anything else?

many thanks
 

Flamingo

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My daughter and her friend (both 16) are travelling to st ives Cornwall in the summer and i have thought about paying extra for them to travel 1st class as it is rather a long journey - but can you use the rail card for discount - bit confused by this whole thread really.! As i was going to buy railcards for them?

And just because they are 16 doesn't mean they are noisy layabout students!

And what are the perks of 1st class travel i know they get more space and comfier seats but is there anything else?

many thanks
- If they are on ADVANCE tickets, then they can get a YP discount on a 1st class ticket.
- If a 1st class flexible ticket then they have to pay full fare.
- If they are travelling at the weekend or a bank holiday they can upgrade to 1st Class on-board from ANY ticket for £20 if travelling from London.

More space, complementary refreshments, look at http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/Content.aspx?id=3973
(I'm sure they are very sweet girls :) )
 

island

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16-25 railcards are valid for discounts on First Class Advance tickets with all train operating companies, and on other First Class tickets with some train operating companies. But not FGW (with the exception of Weekend First as mentioned by Flamingo above).

The benefits of First Class vary by train company, and range from sitting in a delimited area (with the same kind of seats as everyone else) up to free meals and drinks, although your daughter and her friend won't get served alcohol obviously! On First Great Western, I believe there is a free tea, coffee, or water plus a biscuit or cake; these will be served at seat until 1900 on weekdays and can be collected from the buffet car at other times. http://firstgreatwestern.co.uk/Content.aspx?id=60 has more information.

There is probably not any first class service between St. Erth and St. Ives.
 

bb21

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My daughter and her friend (both 16) are travelling to st ives Cornwall in the summer and i have thought about paying extra for them to travel 1st class as it is rather a long journey - but can you use the rail card for discount - bit confused by this whole thread really.! As i was going to buy railcards for them?

And just because they are 16 doesn't mean they are noisy layabout students!

And what are the perks of 1st class travel i know they get more space and comfier seats but is there anything else?

many thanks
I just realised that we don't actually know where you're travelling from, although the advice given above doesn't really change. However given who your daughter & co are travelling with, we might be able to say whether the first class offering's worth it or not.
 

mikeg

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Oh okay, just noticed it said with railcard on the East Coast booking engine.

Edit: Maybe it works for returns? According to East Coast: First off peak return from Thirsk to London with discount YNG: £79
First off peak return, no railcards £109.
 

bb21

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Edit: Maybe it works for returns? According to East Coast: First off peak return from Thirsk to London with discount YNG: £79
First off peak return, no railcards £109.
£109 with 34% discount is £71.95
 

Flamingo

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I assumed it would be FGW going into Cornwall, but of course there are other TOC's going there as well.
 
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