16-25 Railcard on Oystercard

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maniacmartin

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Hi,

A friend of mine has his 16-25 railcard loaded onto his Oyster card to reduce the daily cap. He was travelling PAYG on the DLR and a Serco employee did a ticket check. After swiping his card, they asked to see his 16-25 Railcard.

Whenever I have had a ticket check on the DLR, I've never been asked to produce the 16-25 Railcard linked with my Oyster

Is there a requirement to carry your railcard when making Oyster PAYG journeys with a connected Oyster card?
 
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MikeWh

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Hi,

A friend of mine has his 16-25 railcard loaded onto his Oyster card to reduce the daily cap. He was travelling PAYG on the DLR and a Serco employee did a ticket check. After swiping his card, they asked to see his 16-25 Railcard.

Whenever I have had a ticket check on the DLR, I've never been asked to produce the 16-25 Railcard linked with my Oyster

Is there a requirement to carry your railcard when making Oyster PAYG journeys with a connected Oyster card?

Yes there is. The only thing that a railcard discounted Oyster card is valid on without the railcard is buses and trams. You could probably get away with it between 0630 and 0930 on the basis that it isn't giving you any advantage, but outside those times you are either getting cheap fares or a cheap cap, or both.
 

calc7

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What is the policy if you are unable to produce the railcard on such a check (but, if it makes a difference, the staff do not suspect fare evasion)?

I rarely carry my railcard on a daily basis, and certainly wouldn't if I were going on a night out. If "caught" is one able to produce it at a later date (as they capture the details when applying the discount, it should be verifiable that person with card = person with railcard)?
 

SS4

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You'd not be travelling with a valid ticket as per the Railcard T&Cs. You'd get PFed or UPFN I suspect
 

yorkie

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What is the policy if you are unable to produce the railcard on such a check (but, if it makes a difference, the staff do not suspect fare evasion)?
In this case, in a Penalty Fare area, then a Penalty Fare would be applicable.

Elsewhere, a new single ticket would be payable.

Discretion can be shown of course.

...or UPFN I suspect

If the customer is unable to pay the fare, it is possible a UFN may be issued (e.g. if travelling with East Coast), but be aware that some TOCs (e.g. FCC) would go straight for prosecution, as we have seen several times recently (and most recently only a couple of days ago!)
 

MikeWh

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Just note that I got checked on a bus once and they did check for my photocard! So you're not even safe on the buses!

Interesting. I guess if you've capped at a travelcard rate then technically you would need the railcard, but if only using buses for the day you would cap at the bus cap and should have no need for a railcard. I can see how it isn't obvious that a railcard would be required just to ride on red buses. I might have to pose that question to my contacts at TfL.
 

lyesbkz

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Just note that I got checked on a bus once and they did check for my photocard! So you're not even safe on the buses!

Assuming it wasn't a rail replacement service, I'm surprised of the bus driver's knowledge regarding the railcard / need for a photocard.

I am surprised by this. Had I been eligible for a railcard on my oyster I would have assumed that the discount being loaded was all that was required.

And I am equally surprised by this! Since Oyster is the equivalent to your ticket it seems obvious to me that, should you be making use of a railcard discount, you would need to be carrying your railcard too!
 

Brucey

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I am surprised by this. Had I been eligible for a railcard on my oyster I would have assumed that the discount being loaded was all that was required (on the basis that it _is_ the discount card).

Same as when you buy a paper ticket, you still need the railcard to prove you are eligible for the discount.
 

RJ

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Assuming it wasn't a rail replacement service, I'm surprised of the bus driver's knowledge regarding the railcard / need for a photocard.



And I am equally surprised by this! Since Oyster is the equivalent to your ticket it seems obvious to me that, should you be making use of a railcard discount, you would need to be carrying your railcard too!

You'd be surprised what knowledge some London bus drivers have. I've seen lone Groupsave and Railcard discounted paper Travelcard holders challenged on buses :p

As for the Oystercard, the photocard is still required. Those inspectors on the buses are on almost 40k and are very proficient in ensuring there are no irregularities.

 

calc7

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I do find it slightly uncouth that there is no retrospective procedure whereby a genuine passenger can provide a railcard (and ID if necessary) to prove their innocence.
 

NathanPrior

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But surely when registering it onto the Oyster the clerk who's doing it would see it's valid and enter the number of it onto the system and whatever else. Thus no need to carry it around due to the railcardcard being registered under that name/number which should be easily checkable if the RPI's can be bothered to do their job properly and check with any LU/LO Station on the system.

I've never been asked for it whenever I've been checked while it's been registed on my Oyster.
 

Brucey

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But surely when registering it onto the Oyster the clerk who's doing it would see it's valid and enter the number of it onto the system and whatever else. Thus no need to carry it around due to the railcardcard being registered under that name/number which should be easily checkable if the RPI's can be bothered to do their job properly and check with any LU/LO Station on the system.

I've never been asked for it whenever I've been checked while it's been registed on my Oyster.

The card number isn't registered. Just the expiry date.

In any case, how do you prove it is your discount on the Oyster card? You still need the photo to demonstrate this.
 

NathanPrior

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The card number isn't registered. Just the expiry date.

In any case, how do you prove it is your discount on the Oyster card? You still need the photo to demonstrate this.

When mine was being registered I do believe the clerk put my name in the box, not unless it's changed since December I have no idea.

I geuss they could issue a photcard for it too (exactly like the Job Centre discounted Oyster photocard), which would create less problems for people who aren't told to carry it whilst it's loaded onto Oyster. I've seen no literature anywhere that states that you have to carry it with you, I don't even think normal staff know this rule.
 

Brucey

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I've seen no literature anywhere that states that you have to carry it with you, I don't even think normal staff know this rule.

The railcard terms and conditions?
You must carry your Railcard with you on your journey and when asked by rail staff, you must show a valid ticket and valid Railcard. If you fail to do so, you will be required to pay the full price Standard Single fare for your journey as if no ticket was purchased before starting the journey and in some cases a Penalty Fare. This does not apply if there was no ticket office at the station at which you began your journey or if the ticket office was closed and there was no ticket machine from which you could buy a discounted ticket.
 

ainsworth74

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I've seen no literature anywhere that states that you have to carry it with you, I don't even think normal staff know this rule.

From the TfL website:

How do I use it?

  • You need to touch your card on yellow card readers to make sure you pay the right price.
  • Always carry your National Railcard photocard as proof of your entitlement when travelling on all modes - Tube, DLR, London Overground, bus and tram or National Rail
  • Don't let anyone else use your National Railcard or Oyster card

My bold. Seems pretty clear to me and from the horses mouth as it were.
 

ainsworth74

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But it doesnt specifically say Oyster does it?

Erm you mean apart from the part where it says:

You need to touch your card on yellow card readers to make sure you pay the right price.

Because that makes it pretty clear to me that it's talking specifically about Oyster cards. Also under the "How do I Apply" section:

Adding your discount entitlement to an Oyster card

For holders of Annual Gold Card, Disabled Persons, HM Forces, Senior and 16-25 National Railcard, if you want to get 34 per cent discount on pay as you go at off-peak times, you must register your Oyster card or Oyster photocard then get your discount entitlement added.

Again I think it's pretty clear that it's referring to Oyster cards not paper tickets. In fact I'm fairly sure that you can't even get railcard discounts on TfL paper tickets.
 

MikeWh

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Erm you mean apart from the part where it says:



Because that makes it pretty clear to me that it's talking specifically about Oyster cards. Also under the "How do I Apply" section:



Again I think it's pretty clear that it's referring to Oyster cards not paper tickets. In fact I'm fairly sure that you can't even get railcard discounts on TfL paper tickets.

All correct. The only TfL paper tickets that can be railcard discounted are day travelcards, AIUI. And remember that on Oyster you get discounts on the z1-2 and z1-4 caps while the cheapest discounted paper travelcard is the z1-6 version.
 

Mike395

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The railcard photo-card number is input onto the Oyster as well and a it must be registered at the same address as the railcard. A quick phone call by a revenue inspector can determine the latter.

I don't see that being enforced easily though - my railcard is registered at my uni address and my Oyster is registered at my home address - it isnt easily possible to update the address record for the railcard, so I will definitely be arguing my case if this is ever challenged.
 

Brucey

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Railcards aren't really "registered to an address" though. You don't contact ATOC everytime you move house to let them know, you simply put your new address on the form next year.
 

MikeWh

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The railcard photo-card number is input onto the Oyster as well and a it must be registered at the same address as the railcard. A quick phone call by a revenue inspector can determine the latter.

The railcard photo-card number may be input onto the Oyster but the whole process takes less than half a minute in the hands of a clerk who knows what they are doing. There is absolutely no check on the details of the railcard at all. The requirement for the Oyster to be registered is for TfL's benefit and the passenger's security rather than synchronising with a railcard.

As to RPIs being told the addresses registered to Oyster cards; I think the information commissioner might have something to say about data protection breaches were that to happen.

Quite simply, the actual railcard is required to validate the discount entitlement on the Oyster. If you haven't got it with you then you are obtaining discounted travel without authority in the same way as using a discounted ticket without the railcard is not allowed.

The only aspect of the rules on the TfL site quoted above that I might question is the requirement to always have the railcard on a bus/tram. If the Oyster system shows that only buses/trams have been used that day then there is no revenue loss. It would be an interesting case were TfL to try and take someone to court for that. My guess is that many bus journeys will be using capped Oyster cards where the railcard is needed to validate the reduced cap, so it is easier to say always carry them together rather than explain the specific circumstances where it is necessary. It's similar to the requirement to always touch in on a tram when using an Oyster with travelcard to Wimbledon. The reason is to stop a maximumm fare being deducted by the gateline at Wimbledon which would happen if the travelcard didn't include zone 3. If it does include zone 3 then there is no issue.
 

Clip

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Im amazed by some people on this thread, who should know better, are questioning whethe ryou should carry your railcard. Of course you should.
 
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