1830's & 1840's - train carriages to conveying Royal Mail

[g.satchwell]

I am currently researching for my next book and would very much appreciate some help.

Could anyone please help me establish a description, or find images, of rail coaches
that conveyed Royal Mail during the 1830's and 1840's.

 

[Bevan Price]

I am currently researching for my next book and would very much appreciate some help.

Could anyone please help me establish a description, or find images, of rail coaches
that conveyed Royal Mail during the 1830's and 1840's.

Everything at that period had 4 wheels (2 axles), and mail would be better-treated than 3rd class passengers, so it would probably have a roof.
RHG Thomas in his book "The Liverpool & Manchester Railway" wrote that mail was carried within first class coaches with a "luxury" quality for which premium fares were charged. Also at that time, rail coaches were largely based on slightly extended versions of stagecoaches fitted onto a rail chassis.

They would possibly resemble one of the roofed coaches shown here:

Liverpool and Manchester Railway - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Gloster]

I have a recollection of seeing lithographs of early coaches and IIRC they were, like passenger coaches, based on contemporary stagecoaches. One way in which they differed was that there were fewer windows, possibly just one in the central door. The main colour was black, but they had panels in different colours to First class passenger vehicles, possibly being Royal Mail red.

EDIT: The reference to fewer windows refers to mail coaches as opposed to passenger ones.

 

[WesternLancer]

I am currently researching for my next book and would very much appreciate some help.

Could anyone please help me establish a description, or find images, of rail coaches
that conveyed Royal Mail during the 1830's and 1840's.

I had a recollection that there was an early mail coach in the National Railway Museum
v quick google confirms that as per this page - looks like a replica of an 1838 example from the Grand Jct Railway built by the LMS in 1938:

List of rolling stock items in the UK National Collection - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Must be plenty more info on this example out there, not least presumably accessible via the NRM if not on line, plus ability to go an see it assuming it is on display still.

This looks helpful

Replica Grand Junction Railway travelling post office | Science Museum Group Collection

Traveling Post Office, Grand Junction Railway, replica postal sorting van, copy of first TPO on London North Western Railway (LNWR) wagon frame, built 1938 (original 1838). Royal VR monogram painted on door sides, coach number 282693.

collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk

also British Postal Museum might have other stuff.

I guess there were plenty of railways that carried post on non dedicated vehicles at that stage, as other have mentioned.

 

[g.satchwell]

Everything at that period had 4 wheels (2 axles), and mail would be better-treated than 3rd class passengers, so it would probably have a roof.
RHG Thomas in his book "The Liverpool & Manchester Railway" wrote that mail was carried within first class coaches with a "luxury" quality for which premium fares were charged. Also at that time, rail coaches were largely based on slightly extended versions of stagecoaches fitted onto a rail chassis.

They would possibly resemble one of the roofed coaches shown here:

Liverpool and Manchester Railway - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Thank you, Bevan. I will follow up on this. Much obliged. Any other feedback will be gratefully received.

I have a recollection of seeing lithographs of early coaches and IIRC they were, like passenger coaches, based on contemporary stagecoaches. One way in which they differed was that there were fewer windows, possibly just one in the central door. The main colour was black, but they had panels in different colours to First class passenger vehicles, possibly being Royal Mail red.

EDIT: The reference to fewer windows refers to mail coaches as opposed to passenger ones.

Dear Gloster, Thank you. I will follow up on this. Any other feedback will be gratefully received.Much obliged.

I had a recollection that there was an early mail coach in the National Railway Museum
v quick google confirms that as per this page - looks like a replica of an 1838 example from the Grand Jct Railway built by the LMS in 1938:

List of rolling stock items in the UK National Collection - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Must be plenty more info on this example out there, not least presumably accessible via the NRM if not on line, plus ability to go an see it assuming it is on display still.

This looks helpful

Replica Grand Junction Railway travelling post office | Science Museum Group Collection

Traveling Post Office, Grand Junction Railway, replica postal sorting van, copy of first TPO on London North Western Railway (LNWR) wagon frame, built 1938 (original 1838). Royal VR monogram painted on door sides, coach number 282693.

collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk

also British Postal Museum might have other stuff.

I guess there were plenty of railways that carried post on non dedicated vehicles at that stage, as other have mentioned.

This is brilliant, thank you WesternLancer.

 

[mailbyrail]

Perhaps the following notes will help - I can try to find other references to add later

The first mails were carried on the Liverpool & Manchester Railway on Thursday 11 November 1830.

The Grand Junction Railway carried mail from Birmingham to Warrington when it opened on 4 July 1837.

In November 1837 the Grand Junction Railway negotiated with the Superintendent of Mail Coaches to establish conditions under which the mails would be carried. As a result, recommendation was made on 10 December 1837 to the Post Master General that special Up and Down trains should convey the London mails and another six ordinary trains should also be used for other mails.
Four categories of train were proposed:

1 -Special Trains with any space and weight that can be conveyed on 4 wheels

2 - Trains providing half a carriage but at the ordinary times for passengers

3 - Trains not affording us (the Post Office) carriages but conveying the mails by ordinary trains in the same manner as at present

4 – Ordinary day trains under no control on the part of the Post Office


Nathaniel Worsdell had made experiments during 1837 with a mechanism to pick up and put down mail bags on the move, obtaining a patent in January 1838. The Post Office refused to pay for the right to use the patent but developed its own which was brought into use on a converted horse box with trials at Boxmoor on 30 May 1838. It was this four wheel converted horse box which was the basis of the LMS replica which was built in 1938 and is generally accepted as being the first railway Travelling Post Office. No earlier illustrations of any special mail coaches are known.

I've now got details of the four special carriages built by the Grand Junction Railway in 1838
16 feet long, 7 feet high, 7 foot 6 inches wide, weight 4 tons 2 cwt unladen, 5 tons laden.
They were the largest vehicles of the time, the company feared wind resistance would slow the trains down.

 

[g.satchwell]

Everything at that period had 4 wheels (2 axles), and mail would be better-treated than 3rd class passengers, so it would probably have a roof.
RHG Thomas in his book "The Liverpool & Manchester Railway" wrote that mail was carried within first class coaches with a "luxury" quality for which premium fares were charged. Also at that time, rail coaches were largely based on slightly extended versions of stagecoaches fitted onto a rail chassis.

They would possibly resemble one of the roofed coaches shown here:

Liverpool and Manchester Railway - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Thank you very much indeed for this. Very useful.

Everything at that period had 4 wheels (2 axles), and mail would be better-treated than 3rd class passengers, so it would probably have a roof.
RHG Thomas in his book "The Liverpool & Manchester Railway" wrote that mail was carried within first class coaches with a "luxury" quality for which premium fares were charged. Also at that time, rail coaches were largely based on slightly extended versions of stagecoaches fitted onto a rail chassis.

They would possibly resemble one of the roofed coaches shown here:

Liverpool and Manchester Railway - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Thank you for this. Very helpful.

Perhaps the following notes will help - I can try to find other references to add later

The first mails were carried on the Liverpool & Manchester Railway on Thursday 11 November 1830.

The Grand Junction Railway carried mail from Birmingham to Warrington when it opened on 4 July 1837.

In November 1837 the Grand Junction Railway negotiated with the Superintendent of Mail Coaches to establish conditions under which the mails would be carried. As a result, recommendation was made on 10 December 1837 to the Post Master General that special Up and Down trains should convey the London mails and another six ordinary trains should also be used for other mails.
Four categories of train were proposed:

1 -Special Trains with any space and weight that can be conveyed on 4 wheels

2 - Trains providing half a carriage but at the ordinary times for passengers

3 - Trains not affording us (the Post Office) carriages but conveying the mails by ordinary trains in the same manner as at present

4 – Ordinary day trains under no control on the part of the Post Office


Nathaniel Worsdell had made experiments during 1837 with a mechanism to pick up and put down mail bags on the move, obtaining a patent in January 1838. The Post Office refused to pay for the right to use the patent but developed its own which was brought into use on a converted horse box with trials at Boxmoor on 30 May 1838. It was this four wheel converted horse box which was the basis of the LMS replica which was built in 1938 and is generally accepted as being the first railway Travelling Post Office. No earlier illustrations of any special mail coaches are known.

I've now got details of the four special carriages built by the Grand Junction Railway in 1838
16 feet long, 7 feet high, 7 foot 6 inches wide, weight 4 tons 2 cwt unladen, 5 tons laden.
They were the largest vehicles of the time, the company feared wind resistance would slow the trains down.

Hi Mailbyrail, I very much appreciate your help. What a great forum this is.

 

[mailbyrail]

And of course there's a Royal Mail coach on the final stamp in the set issued to mark the 150th anniversary of the Liverpool & Manchester Railway

 

[g.satchwell]

Perhaps the following notes will help - I can try to find other references to add later

The first mails were carried on the Liverpool & Manchester Railway on Thursday 11 November 1830.

The Grand Junction Railway carried mail from Birmingham to Warrington when it opened on 4 July 1837.

In November 1837 the Grand Junction Railway negotiated with the Superintendent of Mail Coaches to establish conditions under which the mails would be carried. As a result, recommendation was made on 10 December 1837 to the Post Master General that special Up and Down trains should convey the London mails and another six ordinary trains should also be used for other mails.
Four categories of train were proposed:

1 -Special Trains with any space and weight that can be conveyed on 4 wheels

2 - Trains providing half a carriage but at the ordinary times for passengers

3 - Trains not affording us (the Post Office) carriages but conveying the mails by ordinary trains in the same manner as at present

4 – Ordinary day trains under no control on the part of the Post Office


Nathaniel Worsdell had made experiments during 1837 with a mechanism to pick up and put down mail bags on the move, obtaining a patent in January 1838. The Post Office refused to pay for the right to use the patent but developed its own which was brought into use on a converted horse box with trials at Boxmoor on 30 May 1838. It was this four wheel converted horse box which was the basis of the LMS replica which was built in 1938 and is generally accepted as being the first railway Travelling Post Office. No earlier illustrations of any special mail coaches are known.

I've now got details of the four special carriages built by the Grand Junction Railway in 1838
16 feet long, 7 feet high, 7 foot 6 inches wide, weight 4 tons 2 cwt unladen, 5 tons laden.
They were the largest vehicles of the time, the company feared wind resistance would slow the trains down.

This terrific Mailbyrail, I'm very much obliged to you.