1920s / 30s first-hand memories -- "last call"?

[Calthrop]

Recent musings about the Peak District and its delectable one-time Leek & Manifold Valley 2’ 6” gauge railway, have prompted some rather melancholy thoughts about the passing of time, and mortality.

I’m relatively well-stricken in years – approaching 69: in a lifetime of railway enthusiasm -- particularly directed toward charming rural light railways -- I have done a lot of reading about lines in that category, which perished during the approximate quarter-century before my birth, and with which I could thus not have had first-hand acquaintance. I have often envied those born a generation or two before me who did have that chance, and wrote often poignantly -- frequently with photographic accompaniment --about their experiences.

Thoughts recently entertained, as above, have struck me with the realisation that there are still a few people around who did experience various such lines: but that this will not be the case for much longer -- such folk will have seen what they saw, in their fairly early childhood, and near the end of the lives of the railways concerned. And one of the sad things about old age, is that people’s mental processes tend to become chaotic – a lucky(?) minority still “have their marbles” up to the age of 100+ , but that is rather exceptional. It would seem to me that to have -- and maybe pass on -- valuable-in-highest-degree childhood memories from eight-plus decades back (not that anyone has the right to judge what is or isn’t valuable, to any individual): one would probably need to have witnessed the scene concerned, aged five or six at earliest; and to be one of those whose mind continues to function relatively well, in extreme old age.

On that basis: anyone with coherent first-hand memories of the Leek & Manifold or the Lynton & Barnstaple (abandoned 1934 / 1935 respectively), would need now to be aged at least ninety, or all-but. The Southwold Railway, abandoned in 1929: probably ninety-five. For England’s various steam tramways passenger-wise; and passenger on the Big Four’s several branches from which pass. withdrawn in 1925; and the Listowel & Ballybunnion (abandoned 1924) -- it’s very nearly, “forget it”: as I post this, there are likely around, maybe one or two centenarians who remember -- still coherently – between them, all of the aforementioned: but in the nature of things, for very little longer.

I just find it poignant that a fascinating / evocative / much-told-of era, striking chords with many of us, is still just within living memory; but only just, and for not much longer. Anyone now living who took part combat-wise in World War II must now be in their nineties, barring freakish “child-soldier” doings; anyone now living who was alive during World War I, would have been thus as a very small child, probably totally oblivious to all “war” stuff.

Just really, “random musings” -- any responses, received with interest -- and no condescension intended, toward anyone of any age. Am fantasising a bit, about a testy centenarian RailUKForums member, in full possession of his marbles, responding by ripping me a new a***hole for my patronising cheek toward people decades older; and gloating over his gricing triumphs way before I was born...

 

[trash80]

Yes living memory is something i find very interesting, until we find a way to live forever then major historical events and eras will continually slip out of it. At least now memories can be recorded for (hopefully) eternity.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

My 80+ back fence neighbour was a commuter into Moorgate on steam services for a good period , must ask her around for some detail. My 90 year old old boy across the road , now passed on , born 1912 , his father was a Railway Clearing House Manager who was sent to the USA in 1916 to co-ordinate troop movements from ports of entry to France using executive authority. Great stuff.

 

[Calthrop]

My 80+ back fence neighbour was a commuter into Moorgate on steam services for a good period , must ask her around for some detail. My 90 year old old boy across the road , now passed on , born 1912 , his father was a Railway Clearing House Manager who was sent to the USA in 1916 to co-ordinate troop movements from ports of entry to France using executive authority. Great stuff.

That would have furnished an unusual answer re the old World War I tag, "What did you do in the Great War, Daddy?"

 

[KN1]

Don't think this is going to be a very long thread, can't see many 90 yr olds contributing.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Events pass to memories, to vague recollections, to history, to myths...

Looking now, it is hard to believe that these funny little rural narrow gauge lines, beloved of 7mm gauge modellers, actually existed as viable enterprises.

I know an old timer, who was born in rural Somerset in the 1920s. Must have been an incredibly rural and remote time by any modern standards - far beyond any experience you could recreate in the UK these days.

 

[alxndr]

I grew up very close to the Southwold Railway, and it's saddening to think how little seems to be known about it by the folk who live there. I think the only reason that I knew it existed was the signpost that marked the location of the former Wenhaston station, no one ever really used to speak about it, even the old locals whose parents would have known it even if they didn't themselves.

Perhaps more is known by the people who are having some attempt at reviving it or one of the little local museums, but I've never had the chance to have a look at them. I did buy a little booklet on it a while ago which had some interesting tidbits, but for the most part, I seem to recall it was fairly dry and vague. Unfortunately, it's boxed up ready to move house at the moment or I'd fish it out.

I always think it's a great shame that all the little details about how people really lived and experienced things are so often lost. They're the things that people often tend to recount in their memories—how they always had "bread and buppy" with their dinner or the ice on the inside of their windows—but they're things which are rarely written down, and are often the things which are lost the quickest. Sometimes they can be pieced together with reasonable accuracy by very clever historians, but it's not the same as being able to have first hand accounts.

 

[Calthrop]

I grew up very close to the Southwold Railway, and it's saddening to think how little seems to be known about it by the folk who live there. I think the only reason that I knew it existed was the signpost that marked the location of the former Wenhaston station, no one ever really used to speak about it, even the old locals whose parents would have known it even if they didn't themselves.

Perhaps more is known by the people who are having some attempt at reviving it or one of the little local museums, but I've never had the chance to have a look at them. I did buy a little booklet on it a while ago which had some interesting tidbits, but for the most part, I seem to recall it was fairly dry and vague. Unfortunately, it's boxed up ready to move house at the moment or I'd fish it out.

I always think it's a great shame that all the little details about how people really lived and experienced things are so often lost. They're the things that people often tend to recount in their memories—how they always had "bread and buppy" with their dinner or the ice on the inside of their windows—but they're things which are rarely written down, and are often the things which are lost the quickest. Sometimes they can be pieced together with reasonable accuracy by very clever historians, but it's not the same as being able to have first hand accounts.

Bygone-local-railways matters; I'd submit that perhaps we -- being railway enthusiasts -- are affected by the natural tendency toward feeling that what one finds interesting, and cares about, oneself; should thus necessarily be an object of interest and caring, for everyone. People are greatly variable, though; and one-time rural railways, however charming to the likes of us, are for many people just not particularly interesting or noteworthy -- they were a long-ago inefficient way of getting from A to B, thankfully long superseded by better means of so doing.

At the risk of being accused of "classism" (and emphasising that highly-broad generalising is being done; to which there will be a million individual exceptions) -- I'd suggest that indifference toward what we envisage as treasurable memories from the past, is likely to obtain among plain working folk, more than among sentimental middle-class types.

 

[Calthrop]

Largely because I happened to mention the Listowel & Ballybunnion in my OP: herewith, a “false memory on the part of the old” anecdote.

I’ve mentioned a few times in various posts on these forums, a dearly-loved late uncle of mine (1918 – 2010). While not actually a railway enthusiast, he had an appreciation of “the poetry of railways” as they were in the earlier decades of his life; and he “got” what it is about that scene, which makes people like us into – sometimes besotted – railway enthusiasts (while he thought that I took the business to an at times lunatic extent).

As often happens in old age: in the last few years of his life, my uncle mostly lost his mental grip on things, and became confused about much both in the present and the past. I have no intention of ridiculing him here; just to tell – in all sympathy with him – of a minor thing which came about. In his youth, my uncle – in company with another uncle, his elder brother – took what must have been a wonderful holiday in summer 1938, in which they toured by bicycle, the southern half of the island of Ireland. In the course of said journey, they encountered in action, the Schull & Skibbereen 3ft gauge line (of whose existence they’d been hitherto unaware) and took some delight in it.

On a visit to him by me and my brother, a couple of years before his death, my uncle claimed to us that in the course of that holiday, the pair of them had seen the Listowel & Ballybunnion monorail in action. While aware of the general guideline, that with old people with whom dementia is a factor in play – the best / kindest / least trouble-causing thing, is just to gently agree with what they say (even if it’s nonsensical, what harm is it doing to anyone?): my inner railfan-pedant-nitpicker proved uncontrollable here, causing me to say, “Uncle, the L&B closed down in 1924: you and our other uncle were there fourteen years after that – I think you must have that wrong.” He wasn’t upset, but back-tracked a little, saying that probably they had seen the monorail track in the course of demolition. I left things at that – aware that I shouldn’t have been an ass about the matter, in the first place.

From what I’ve read: demolition followed quite rapidly, after the line’s closing in October 1924. I recall reading that an idea was floated, of making a short length of track and one of the locos, a working exhibit in the Irish Free State’s “stand” at – in the later part of its duration – the 1924 – 25 British Empire Exhibition at Wembley; but it seems that nothing came of this. I have no doubt that like many of us, my uncle had heard and read about the L&B, and seen pictures of it, after its demise – the rest was blurring-and-conflating of memories in old age.

 

[Committee man]

Hi Everyone,
I've always had an interest in the Cheshire Lines. My late father was a signalman in mid Cheshire from the early 1950's onward. Because of this I got to know several ex CLC men. I use to visit one or two of them in the evenings to have a chat and see what they could tell me.
After a while I realized that I should be recording their thoughts so persuaded them to allow me to have a microphone present.
The first one I recorded was in 1983 and over the years I managed to see about 20 different ex staff. Many had been retired so long (a few were in their 80's and 90's) that hardly anyone remembered them so tracking them down was difficult at times.
The recordings were not of great sound quality but never the less I now have their memories of the CLC in the 1950's, Nationalisation, the Blitz, the depression of the 20's and 30's, the Great War (on the railway and in the trenches) and even a few observations of the Edwardian railway scene starting in 1908!
I'm so glad that I did what I did as sadly they have all now passed away and it would have all been lost. Strangely many of the relatives of these men were totally unaware of what I did and I often think that maybe there children or grandchildren have now become interested in family history with no knowledge of my recordings.
I am planning to gather the material I have into some form of publication but this will have to be a retirement project I think as it seems a bit daunting at the moment and even after all these years I'm not quite sure the best way to go about it.
Anyway I realize this is not on the subject of narrow gauge memories but thought some might find it interesting and give you some idea of what others have been doing to try and preserve railway memories of the past.

 

[Rover]

Sounds very interesting, well done on the foresight to do something like this. With modern software technology and a little patience it is now be possible to enhance your original recordings, remove the hiss and crackle etc.

 

[Calthrop]

Committee man -- all sounds, indeed, highly interesting. By the way, I didn't intend my OP to be narrow-gauge-specific: was thinking about railway stuff in general, roughly 80 -- 90 years ago and thus with only a small, and rapidly-dwindling, number of people in a position to have first-hand experience of same. It's just that I'm a narrow-gauge nut; and a number of particularly nice n/g lines in the British Isles, happened to perish in that approximate time-frame.

 

[Committee man]

Many thanks Rover for the advice regarding using modern tech to improve my recordings. Something I will pursue.
Calthrop, I realize now that you were referring to all gauges and not just NG, sorry about that. I do see the appeal of NG and realize that many systems vanished many years before we started to lose big chunks of the standard gauge hence the scarcity of memories.
My recordings are kept safe (and duplicated) and as it is quite a few years since I looked at them I dug them out again last night. To my surprise (fading memory?) I see that I managed to interview 32 different people, some several times resulting in 81 cassette tapes so quite a bit of material there to work through!
While quite a few were more than willing to be interviewed several times others were somewhat reluctant to talk for what ever reason and it was difficult to get their permission. Unfortunately, despite my best efforts a few refused outright which was a shame.
After a while I got the hang of asking the right questions (not as simple as it sounds if you want good stories coupled with detail), knowing when to interject just to expand on something and knowing when to keep quiet!
I had to bare in mind that the interview could be my only chance to talk to that person so getting the information I wanted in say 2 hours was critical.
If a return visit (or in some lucky cases several) could be arranged then I had the luxury of listening to what had been said and this meant I could make a list of questions for things I wanted them to expand on. This often then lead to more questions the next time!
Ramble over, hope that was of interest to some. Perhaps it will inspire others who haven't done it yet to take up interviewing retired railway staff as the rate of change these days is quite frightening sometimes.

 

[Calthrop]

Committee man -- it occurs to me to wonder whether your chaps who refused to be interviewed, had maybe hated their job and their employer; and when off that scene and rid of it, wished for the rest of their lives, to think about it as little as possible?

Further thence -- maybe (you haven't directly asserted otherwise) some of those who were ready to talk to you and be recorded, had hated the whole thing, and were delighted to "tell it all, as they'd seen it" -- no holds barred ! Would be an interesting alternative light in which to see the whole business; and a reminder that "one man's meat is another man's poison".

 

[Committee man]

Sorry about the long delay in posting.
Your probably right Calthrop, some as you say probably hated it. I seem to recall one chap who pretty much said so. Consequently although I had a short chat he would not agree to an interview. This was one I had forgotten until you mentioned it.
I did sometimes think that with others who refused, perhaps a serious incident had occurred in which they were involved in some way and they didn't want it raking up again.
One local man I interviewed twice had started on the P Way in 1930 and finished up as a shunter. Two or three old hands who had worked with him told me that the gentleman in question had been a Railway Policeman during the war. This sounded good and I was looking forward to what he was going to tell me.
Strangely despite willingly talking about his railway career he never once mentioned his time in the police. I decided he must have had his reasons so I kept well clear of the matter.
I did wonder some years later after he had passed away if he had perhaps been accused at the time of joining the Police just to avoid being called up?He never mentioned any military service so who knows. There could have been other reasons I suppose but it was the only thing I could think of. A real shame as he was a good talker with a good memory and a really nice man. He did give me plenty of stories and lots of detail so I am grateful for that.
That was 30 years ago, pleasant memories.

 

[Cowley]

Sorry about the long delay in posting.
Your probably right Calthrop, some as you say probably hated it. I seem to recall one chap who pretty much said so. Consequently although I had a short chat he would not agree to an interview. This was one I had forgotten until you mentioned it.
I did sometimes think that with others who refused, perhaps a serious incident had occurred in which they were involved in some way and they didn't want it raking up again.
One local man I interviewed twice had started on the P Way in 1930 and finished up as a shunter. Two or three old hands who had worked with him told me that the gentleman in question had been a Railway Policeman during the war. This sounded good and I was looking forward to what he was going to tell me.
Strangely despite willingly talking about his railway career he never once mentioned his time in the police. I decided he must have had his reasons so I kept well clear of the matter.
I did wonder some years later after he had passed away if he had perhaps been accused at the time of joining the Police just to avoid being called up?He never mentioned any military service so who knows. There could have been other reasons I suppose but it was the only thing I could think of. A real shame as he was a good talker with a good memory and a really nice man. He did give me plenty of stories and lots of detail so I am grateful for that.
That was 30 years ago, pleasant memories.

Very interesting stuff Committee Man, I'm sure there's a few of us that would be very interested to hear their stories. My other half bought me a book of old enginemens stories the other day from a charity shop which I'm looking forward to reading when I get some time. I think many of them are from a similar era.

 

[Calthrop]

Am making so bold as to "bump" this three-year-old thread of mine. This is prompted by the most recent number of the Colonel Stephens Society's quarterly journal; which contains various material to do with the Weston, Clevedon & Portishead Light Railway -- marking its closure just eighty years ago (an event slightly overshadowed right at that time, by World War II -- basically static for the previous nine months -- suddenly becoming "too interesting" !). Included are quite copious reminiscences from a gentleman now in his nineties -- son of an employee of the line -- which I found poignant, and utterly fascinating and evocative (and taking in scenes on the neighbouring GWR main and branch lines, as well as on the WC&P). Brought home to me afresh -- and with a little more "weight", three years on -- my sentiments as set out in my first post in the thread: concerning these assorted delightful lines which nearly all participants on these Forums were born too late to know at first hand -- those who did know them when of a sufficient age to be likely to have coherent memories of them, are now in extreme old age. To paraphrase the sad song: and year by year, their numbers get fewer; soon they'll all be gone.