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1938 stock on the IoW ("It is old, we must get rid of it")

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Lockwood

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There's something I don't understand.
Well, many things, but one that I wish to address here.

With all the threads on HSTs nearing the end of their life and Pacers being old and nasty (partially due to design, partially age), and having been the poor soul unfortunate enough to be on the receiving end of a rant about Pacers and their age...
Isn't there still 1938 stock still in operation?

Asking the person who was ranting and foaming at the keyboard, all I got back was "It's the Isle of Wight, why would I care - I don't use it, and noone cares about the IoW anyway"

If the HSTs that were made in the 70s/80s are nearing the end of their life, and the 1980s Pacers are nearing end of life (ignoring ride quality), how come stock from the 1930s is still going strong?
 
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SS4

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There would be too little cost for too little benefit in replacing them. The IoW railway is not very long which equates to not much wear and and tear compared to chugging up and down the mainline.

Why bother to fix up a pacer or a HST when better designs are available which will save money in the long run because they don't need constantly fixing.
 

swt_passenger

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The island line stock is a bit of a special case, the line operates at a relatively slow speed, not least because the stock is only capable of low speed anyway. It's more like a heritage operation than a proper main line. I don't think it creates much of a precedent for the use of such elderly stock on a normal mixed traffic railway...
 

Muzer

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One of my friends has a conspiracy theory that they're intentionally running it into the ground so they can turn it into an actual heritage line/in some way get rid of it... not sure how much I agree.

I've never been on the Island Line - I should really go considering how close to the IoW I am.
 

Lockwood

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I'm not saying that it should be upgraded, they're chugging along happily.

What I'm saying is that people say "We must get rid of these 30+ year old trains because they're 30+ year old trains!", whilst there are even older units in mainline service.

Of course I'm not naïve enough to think that going up and down the Island Line and the ECML are the same thing!
 

Buttsy

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One of my friends has a conspiracy theory that they're intentionally running it into the ground so they can turn it into an actual heritage line/in some way get rid of it... not sure how much I agree.

I've never been on the Island Line - I should really go considering how close to the IoW I am.

Used to go for days out in Shanklin in the 80s and have been over fairly recently too. All I can say is that the ride quality of the 1938 stock is better than the 1920s stock it replaced...
 

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bangor-toad

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Hi there,
Part of the reason the old Tube stock is used as that's pretty much the only thing that will fit.

The loading gauge is very restricted and "normal" stock wouldn't fit through the tunnels.
Have a look at this for some extra information: Semgonline Link

Cheers,
Jason
 

Muzer

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But there have been plenty of tube stock scrapped since the 1938 stock was. Why hasn't any of that been used?
 

Buttsy

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The stock was originally leased by Porterbrook(?) at something ridiculous like £121,000 per annum per coach. Since then, SWT have purchased all the stock for a nominal £1. I doubt that TfL would sell tube stock for that amount, particularly considering it's likely scrap value...
 

The Ham

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But there have been plenty of tube stock scrapped since the 1938 stock was. Why hasn't any of that been used?

Maybe because of the costs involved in getting the trains to the IoW have to be offset against any positives from the newer stock.
 

Muzer

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Fair enough, then.

(As I said, I haven't been on it, so I don't know how good condition it is)
 

Manchester77

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It's thought that the 1973 stock is the 1938 stocks most likely successor however when the NGTT comes along to displace them is anyone's guess! People can argue that the because its likely that the 1992 stock will be displaced too these could be used but the DC motors are less than ideal so as well as conversion to third rail running you'd need a new traction package
 

Crossover

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As others have said, they are very restricted on stock because of the tunnel floor been raised to alleviate flood issues (IIRC)

I went on the 1938 stock last year and, to be fair, they seemed to be in relatively condition, all things considered. Although a guard had to go and push a stuck door shut on a service I used, thats not really any different to some of the stuff on the mainland.

With the aforementioned guaging issue, the line would be limited to Tube Stock, which has been mooted in the past. I do wonder they if they are actually better with what they have, whilst it continues to work. The 1938 stock appears straightforward (mechanically and electrically) without being all computer controlled. I can imagine any newer displaced tube stock "sitting down" in the middle of a section because the computers don't like something...
 

starrymarkb

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Both 1959 and 1962 stock were pretty much knackered after their years on the Central and Northern.

1983 had severe rust issues so wouldn't have lasted long on the Pier

Victoria had the ATO to strip out

I understand Island Line were looking at 1973 stock which was up for replacement in 2015 (though LUL cutbacks have knocked that on the head)
 
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steamybrian

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The 1938 tube stock is part of the scene and atmosphere of the IOW railways which traditionally has always received second hand locos and stock from the mainline.
My first visit to the island was in 1966 was to see the 02 class locos built around 1890 with pregrouping carriages from the turn of the century.
Crossing the Solent from Portsmouth and arriving at Ryde Pier to see 1938 LT tube stock trundling along the pier to connect with the ferries (sorry-catamaran) is just a "different world". Connecting at Smallbrook Jn with the IOW Steam Railway to see the only heritage railway using all pregrouping coaches.
I am not sure whether the 1938 is approaching life expiry but whoever takes on replacing the stock has a big bill to pay to transport stock from London.
 

Buttsy

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Perhaps with a bit of imagination and a wedge of cash, some hertiage 3rd rail stock could be moved to the IOW to run alongside the tube stock from St Johns Road to Shanklin. 508s or EPBs on the Island line anyone???? :D

I don't think that there's rolling stock on the IOW that is less than 50 years old, unless there's a mark 2 coach on the steam railway...
 

ainsworth74

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Of course I'm not naïve enough to think that going up and down the Island Line and the ECML are the same thing!

In which case you have your answer.

The IOW line is short, slow and low intensity throughout it's operation. The ECML is long (trains can easily cover in excess of a 1,000 miles a day), fast (125mph) and high intensity (trains have to accelerate quickly, brake quickly and have to be prepared for the next day in depots overnight quickly). The mode of operations on the two are totally different and attempting to keep trains running that kind of service out to seventy years is going to be difficult and more importantely very expensive.
 

BestWestern

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Used to go for days out in Shanklin in the 80s and have been over fairly recently too. All I can say is that the ride quality of the 1938 stock is better than the 1920s stock it replaced...

Out of interest, your pic seems to show the ('down' ?) Shanklin-bound line looking as if it was still in use, when did that cease to be the case? The platform has now obviously been abandoned for some years, and the same at certain other locations I believe; the island at Brading I think, and the second pier platform?

It is a truly fascinating line, and well worth a visit, particularly if one appreciates the awesome creation that is the hovercraft too! :D I've no idea if the line is profitable or a funding black hole, or somewhere in between. I would hazard a guess though that a lot of revenue is lost between the pier and the esplanade, since the Guard has little time to sell many tickets, and of course both stations are ungated. I've thought previously that perhaps that section ought to be made officially free, perhaps run as a shuttle in connection with the Council and tourism authorities; perhaps some funding could be forthcoming in that case.
 

Mikey C

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But then part of the attracting of the Island Line (for types like us) is that it's operated by 1938 stock, a classic British train. It's not as if it's an intensively used commuter service.
 

steamybrian

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.......
It is a truly fascinating line, and well worth a visit, particularly if one appreciates the awesome creation that is the hovercraft too! :D I've no idea if the line is profitable or a funding black hole, or somewhere in between. I would hazard a guess though that a lot of revenue is lost between the pier and the esplanade, since the Guard has little time to sell many tickets, and of course both stations are ungated. I've thought previously that perhaps that section ought to be made officially free, perhaps run as a shuttle in connection with the Council and tourism authorities; perhaps some funding could be forthcoming in that case.

The Ryde-Shanklin makes a huge annual loss but like many other lines its reprieve from closure in the mid-1960s was due to heavy use in the summer and to reduce use of the congested roads.
Tickets between Portsmouth to Ryde on the ferries/catamaran use to include rail travel Pier Head to Esplanade and believe they still do..??
A mention that Portsmouth (Southsea) to Ryde is the UKs only hovercraft operated passenger service.
 
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Lockwood

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I think that the mod-editted title here has altered the tone of the question somewhat.

I am not asking "Why are we still using 1938 stock, let's get rid of it"
I am asking "Why are people upset about old stock that is newer than other stock that noone's got any problem with"
 

MK Tom

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I think that the mod-editted title here has altered the tone of the question somewhat.

I am not asking "Why are we still using 1938 stock, let's get rid of it"
I am asking "Why are people upset about old stock that is newer than other stock that noone's got any problem with"

Like the two class 121s that are still happily thrashing between Aylesbury and Princess Risborough.

I don't think age is the problem people have with pacers - it just gets used to add to their argument. The problem with pacers is that they're Leyland National buses on rail underframes. They don't have the durability of normal trains. Don't forget pacers were withdrawn on some lines in the 1980s with 1960s DMUs replacing them.

As for HSTs, it's unusual for stock (diesel stock anyway) to be that old and still in FRONT LINE service. But it's important to remember most of them have new engines now. Also the mark 3 carriage is an excellent design but in safety terms it has been outperformed somewhat. If the Greyrigg accident had happened with a mark 3 set the result could've been horrific.

Another interesting case is the class 08, which is effectively an LMS design.
 
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Buttsy

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Out of interest, your pic seems to show the ('down' ?) Shanklin-bound line looking as if it was still in use, when did that cease to be the case? The platform has now obviously been abandoned for some years, and the same at certain other locations I believe; the island at Brading I think, and the second pier platform?

I think the pic is from the 1983-5 period and at that time, not only were both lines in use from Pier Head to Esplanade, there was double track from Brading to Sandown and shuttles were run from Pier Head to Esplanade when the ferry arrived.
 

Drsatan

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I think the pic is from the 1983-5 period and at that time, not only were both lines in use from Pier Head to Esplanade, there was double track from Brading to Sandown and shuttles were run from Pier Head to Esplanade when the ferry arrived.

That's right, Brading to Sandown was singled in 1989 and Sandown signalbox was closed shortly afterwards.

I hope that a few 1973 stock trains are reprieved for use on the Island Line, although to maximise the potential of new stock it would be worthwhile reinstating the loop at Brading to allow a regular half-hourly service. In 2010 there was an article in The Railway Magazine which explored options for the Island Line, including building a single track from Smallbrook Junction to Ryde St Johns solely for the Isle of Wight Steam Railway, or even rebuilding Ryde Pier Head to allow said trains to run round there.

What no-one on the Island wants is a cheap and nasty option, like building a guided busway.
 

jopsuk

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It is quite a decline that the previous stock was 3 and 4 car units, operating in 7 car formations, whilst the current operation is as far as I understand generally just 2-car trains.

(I appreciate the old motor coaches were more like half, possibly less, of a carriage really)
 

transmanche

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It is quite a decline that the previous stock was 3 and 4 car units, operating in 7 car formations, whilst the current operation is as far as I understand generally just 2-car trains.
Ah the old 4-VEC and 3-TIS units... a prize to whoever in BR came up with that!
 

yorkie

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I think that the mod-editted title here has altered the tone of the question somewhat.

I am not asking "Why are we still using 1938 stock, let's get rid of it"
I know, but you did ask:
how come stock from the 1930s is still going strong?
I felt the thread title wasn't descriptive, so I edited it to comply with that, however if you can think of a suitable title, you can edit it yourself, providing it's descriptive :)
I am asking "Why are people upset about old stock that is newer than other stock that noone's got any problem with"
You mentioned HST and pacer replacement in your opening post, but there are already threads for that, so I figured this thread was about why was the 1938 stock still going strong. Which is a good question, and I think we have the answer: that it can handle the workload placed on it, without too much investment, and the cost of replacement would be high.

But to answer why do people get 'upset' when stock that they like is being withdrawn? That's simply down to human nature! And of course some stock will be much more popular than others. :)
 

tbtc

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There's not a lot to go wrong on the 1938 stock - so not a lot has gone wrong on them, even after all these years.

It's a bit like being happy with the way that your wristwatch continues to tell the time after ten/twenty years (even though most people's phones only last a couple of years).
 

Drsatan

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There's not a lot to go wrong on the 1938 stock - so not a lot has gone wrong on them, even after all these years.

It's a bit like being happy with the way that your wristwatch continues to tell the time after ten/twenty years (even though most people's phones only last a couple of years).

Admittedly, it's brilliant that the 1938 stock still provides sterling service, it's just that sourcing spare parts is even more problematic now. Three of the 1938 stock trains (class 483) were scrapped for spare parts in 1996 or 1997. When those spare parts have become life expired, sourcing new ones (especially since they may have to be made to order) will become very expensive.
 
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