1960s rationalisation - which stations might have survived on other lines?

[Taunton]

Interesting. What year was that? Was it after the local train service was withdrawn.

I suspect a secondary reason for the lack of service was it being different bus company areas.

 

[RT4038]

But with more trains would they tap into greater demand, due to a better service?

It would be a bit embarrassing, once they had spent the money quadrupling the track, to find out that the additional trains didn't tap into a greater demand. Around the time of closure (in the early 60s) the Western Region had considerably increased suburban train frequency in the Bristol area, which had not done well at all and was reversed. I am sure that, if more frequent trains around an urban area did not generate sufficient additional patronage, then it would not be thought worthwhile for a rural service with inconveniently sited stations.

 

[30907]

It would be a bit embarrassing, once they had spent the money quadrupling the track, to find out that the additional trains didn't tap into a greater demand.

True, but I think the starting point of this thread is "if the line had been quadruple for some reason..." which is slightly different. In most cases upthread (not Taunton-Exeter perhaps) the only plausible reason would have been freight; indeed, the duplicate tracks on the MML mentioned were IIRC goods lines.

 

[yorksrob]

One for me I suppose ...

Believe it or not, at closure time there was no bus service west from Wellington. None. There was a Western National double decker every 20 minutes out from Taunton, opposite end of the town to the station, which then alternately fanned out to a couple of points a bit further on, but Rockwell Green on the main A38 was the end. Thereafter there was a complete void in bus service until you got over the Devon border to Willand, whereupon the Devon General company picked up with services to Exeter through Cullompton.

It apparently surprised some John O' Groats to Lands End travellers by bus in the 1960s, no particular planning, just taking the next one as they found it, got all the way from Scotland to Taunton, then nothing direct to Exeter. Had to go via Honiton.

Much of this is because Taunton (and Wellington) have surprisingly little focus on Exeter, they relate principally to Bristol, despite it being further. Of course, there are all the expresses, and now the motorway, but in all the years I lived there and visited I hardly went to the place. Went to Torquay and beyond more.

The train service from Taunton to Exeter at closure was typical. There were regular non-stop expresses (though not turn up and go), and about five locals a day which stopped at all the stations. That was it. There was no semi-fast service to the more significant places, it was one or the other. Even the daily Cardiff-Plymouth Class 124 dmu, nearest thing to a semi-fast, ran non-stop.

Of the stations for the two largest places along the way, both Wellington and Cullompton had the station the furthest out building in the town, and really beyond walking distance from the centre. Wellington, in fact in a neighbouring village called Tonedale, was at least alongside houses all the way, with a pavement; Cullompton wasn't, through open fields on a main unlit A road. Not now but they were then. Wellington had a bus along the road, just once an hour, but guess what - it was one of those buses from Taunton!

I'm sure if Wellington and Collumpton had been on a secondary route, such as Salisbury to Exeter, for example, they probably would have survived.

 

[RT4038]

I'm sure if Wellington and Collumpton had been on a secondary route, such as Salisbury to Exeter, for example, they probably would have survived.

Maybe. That does show that where there is sufficient demand for Express trains between major centres, the residual traffic from small intermediate stations is just too uneconomic to cater for. The Salisbury-Exeter line is not really directly comparable - the local train services were withdrawn (abandoning any local traffic to/from Yeovil) with most village stations closed. Virtually all of the remaining stations had through service to London already. Of all the stations, only Whimple and Tisbury had anything like a regular alternative bus service following the line of rail. Whimple originally only had peak hour service (due to the number of commuters to Exeter) and Tisbury was going to be closed, but was saved by a local bigwig and for many years only had 2 trains per day stopping there. The very good location of Exeter Central station, the absence of competing bus services over the fairly long distances between major stations and the stronger long distance traffic all worked in the favour of rails in a way that Cullompton and Wellington never would. Of course Tiverton Junction/Parkway was retained/established to be a railhead for the area, but this was never intended to serve local passengers, who were much better served by buses, for the reasons already discussed.

 

[Taunton]

Not so much on a secondary route, or a less busy route, but if there had been a different service provision.

It's not just Welly and Cullompton which might have potential if there was a "Southern style" service, both Langport and Spmerton are the same, while Bruton and Frome likewise are comparably-sized places, still open and on the main line, but not with a mainstream London service. Castle Cary, which had no London service until comparatively recent times, has been a notable success and become a railhead for places like Shepton Mallet or Glastonbury. But is it efficient for the Paddington train to stop there and have people get out from a seat which most likely is then not sat in again all the way to Penzance?

If there was a secondary service to London that served all these places, like on the Waterloo line, the issue is the major places of Exeter and Taunton, providing possibly more passengers than all those small places added together, would still want to travel to London on the existing faster express. That doesn't happen on the Waterloo line, because there isn't an express from west of Exeter, so passengers from there or Salisbury are all in the same train. And apart from a few train buffs, people don't travel right through from Exeter to Waterloo.

You can't say station provision is down to track capacity, because the Waterloo route, with all those stops, is mostly single track, while the Taunton route is double all the way.

 

[si404]

Bruton and Frome likewise are comparably-sized places, still open and on the main line, but not with a mainstream London service.

Frome's off a loop and, you are right, doesn't have mainstream London service (a couple of extensions of Bedwyn services at peak times) - it's service is just the Heart of Wessex line. Bruton, however, has had a regular service ever since the big timetable change on GWR.

But is it efficient for the Paddington train to stop there and have people get out from a seat which most likely is then not sat in again all the way to Penzance?

This is why the stations Pewsey to Castle Cary (but not Frome) are* served by a stopping service from Paddington to (normally) Exeter every two hours - the service runs, but doesn't run further than necessary.

The existence of this semi-fast service means that Somerton, Langport, Wellington and Cullompton could push for having stations again, served by this service (and in the case of the latter two, the Cardiff-Penzance locals).

*At least according to the non-emergency timetable. Obviously not currently.

 

[RT4038]

True, but I think the starting point of this thread is "if the line had been quadruple for some reason..." which is slightly different. In most cases upthread (not Taunton-Exeter perhaps) the only plausible reason would have been freight; indeed, the duplicate tracks on the MML mentioned were IIRC goods lines.

I think that yorksrob's reply in post no #28 is spot on in answering that! I suspect the catastrophic loss of freight traffic, and speeding up of what was left, would have resulted in a major rationalisation.

 

[RT4038]

Not so much on a secondary route, or a less busy route, but if there had been a different service provision.

It's not just Welly and Cullompton which might have potential if there was a "Southern style" service, both Langport and Spmerton are the same, while Bruton and Frome likewise are comparably-sized places, still open and on the main line, but not with a mainstream London service. Castle Cary, which had no London service until comparatively recent times, has been a notable success and become a railhead for places like Shepton Mallet or Glastonbury. But is it efficient for the Paddington train to stop there and have people get out from a seat which most likely is then not sat in again all the way to Penzance?

If there was a secondary service to London that served all these places, like on the Waterloo line, the issue is the major places of Exeter and Taunton, providing possibly more passengers than all those small places added together, would still want to travel to London on the existing faster express. That doesn't happen on the Waterloo line, because there isn't an express from west of Exeter, so passengers from there or Salisbury are all in the same train. And apart from a few train buffs, people don't travel right through from Exeter to Waterloo.

You can't say station provision is down to track capacity, because the Waterloo route, with all those stops, is mostly single track, while the Taunton route is double all the way.

I think you are moving into the 'Speculative ideas' section territory. The question was 'would they have survived', and I think that the answer is no. As to whether there is a case, following the seismic social and demographic changes in the intervening 60 years, for establishing new stations and services, this is a maybe but should be discussed elsewhere.

 

[Taunton]

The rationalisation is quite apparent in Cogload to Norton Fitzwarren being reduced from quad to double, just with loops at Taunton station itself.

Back when the Taunton-Exeter local service was withdrawn, outside summer Saturdays there was actually plenty of capacity on the line. Paddington trains were only every couple of hours, plus a couple, and Bristol line expresses were about the same. There was still a lot of freight on the line, but it mostly ran at night, which was far busier than daytime. The Taunton goods loop actually closed in the afternoons. There was concern at Paddington by the mid-1960s that the BRB would require Castle Cary to Cogload to be knocked down to single line.

 

[RT4038]

Interesting. What year was that? Was it after the local train service was withdrawn.

I suspect a secondary reason for the lack of service was it being different bus company areas.

This is from a late 60s timetable, so could have been introduced as a rail replacement service. (Doesn't look like one, but could well be!). Being different bus company areas will have played its part, as will the railway shareholding in Western/Southern National. Taunton and Exeter are quite far apart with frequent express trains even then, plus, as you say, Cullompton looks towards Exeter and Wellington towards Taunton, with some very rural territory in between.

 

[70014IronDuke]

I would think that the main reason for the intermediate station between Bedford and Kettering closing would be that very few passengers used them, and that there was to be a saving to be made by not running the local trains. ...

Er, well, yes. But that is rather a truism. If you use that argument, there is no point to this thead, is there? Were Cullhampton or Wellington or Somerton or Pinhoe any more important than Sharnbrook or lrchester in those days?

... Long distance traffic originiating on stopping trains would be insignificant. Stopping passenger trains were hopeless loss makers; the stopping passenger service between Berwick and Edinburgh being examined in detail in the Beeching report.

I fully agree. But in the context of this thread, it's a valid citation. And in the case of Irchester/Sharnbrook/Oakley (or Bedford North, if you like) there was potential for long-distance commuting to London. Except, in the late 50s, this was, presumably, considered insignificant, in part, because the LMS/BR(M) had largely only run services terminating at Bedford, ie for local traffic only.

You are possibly right about Sandy, except that it was a market town with a well sited station ...

UH? Have you been to Sandy? You say Wellingboro is poorly sited, but Sandy is well sited? I don't know about today, but in the 1960s it was at the eastern extremity of this modest, if pleasant settlement (I'm guessing, but around 3,000 to 4,000 - max 5,000 perhaps back then?) Last time I was there, about 1997, it hadn't changed on that point.

I suspect Sandy survived because in the early years after 67 it had some commuter clientel and because the commuter trains were running anyway, they might as well stop (not sure how difficult pathing was by 1975 mind). But later, when it was being rebuilt, it would have been very difficult politically to close it.

...I suspect that the Castle Cary-Taunton section would have closed completely anyway in that scenario.

Agreed, a likely outcome.

The slew of closures of small stations west of Salisbury happened anyway.

But not all of them. And crucially, the line was not severed at Sherborne. So it maintained a regular (if not so reliable) 1 TP2H to London + an extra in the peaks. Having survived, it began to grow healthy traffic flows, despite the relatively slow service for longer journeys to London. (I guess from the 80s. Not sure, I was unable to follow developments in those years.)

And I don't think anyone has mentioned the WCML stations that closed north of Bletchley, ie Road and Castlethorpe - both on four track stretches.

 

[RT4038]

Er, well, yes. But that is rather a truism. If you use that argument, there is no point to this thead, is there? Were Cullhampton or Wellington or Somerton or Pinhoe any more important than Sharnbrook or lrchester in those days?



I fully agree. But in the context of this thread, it's a valid citation. And in the case of Irchester/Sharnbrook/Oakley (or Bedford North, if you like) there was potential for long-distance commuting to London. Except, in the late 50s, this was, presumably, considered insignificant, in part, because the LMS/BR(M) had largely only run services terminating at Bedford, ie for local traffic only.



UH? Have you been to Sandy? You say Wellingboro is poorly sited, but Sandy is well sited? I don't know about today, but in the 1960s it was at the eastern extremity of this modest, if pleasant settlement (I'm guessing, but around 3,000 to 4,000 - max 5,000 perhaps back then?) Last time I was there, about 1997, it hadn't changed on that point.

I suspect Sandy survived because in the early years after 67 it had some commuter clientel and because the commuter trains were running anyway, they might as well stop (not sure how difficult pathing was by 1975 mind). But later, when it was being rebuilt, it would have been very difficult politically to close it.



Agreed, a likely outcome.



But not all of them. And crucially, the line was not severed at Sherborne. So it maintained a regular (if not so reliable) 1 TP2H to London + an extra in the peaks. Having survived, it began to grow healthy traffic flows, despite the relatively slow service for longer journeys to London. (I guess from the 80s. Not sure, I was unable to follow developments in those years.)

And I don't think anyone has mentioned the WCML stations that closed north of Bletchley, ie Road and Castlethorpe - both on four track stretches.

Cullompton, Wellington, Sharnbrook and Irchester were all probably a much of a muchness in railway passenger traffic terms in those days, i.e. all hopeless, not likely to develop, with good local bus services. I think that the question has been raised about Cullompton and Wellington because they were both small towns (albeit quite small) and have both grown exponentially in the intervening period.
Bedford was not a London commuter town when the local stations north thereof closed. Only senior managers, and railway staff, would have been able to afford the season ticket prices. Oakley was not at all equivalent to Bedford North - it was a rural village with some people working in Bedford or at the Royal Aircraft Establishment or some other local employer. Lots of fields separated Oakley from Clapham, and Clapham with Bedford. These places were nothing like they are now. Omnibuses catered for the public transport needs, and had done since the 1920s. Residents of Irchester worked in Rushden or Wellingborough, with a small few going to Northampton for work or a special shop. The railway did not cater for any of these needs as well as the bus (Wellingborough Station being a bus ride away from the shopping streets),
I am very familiar with Sandy - the station is contiguous to the town, and a fairly short walk - unlike Cullompton or Wellington which at the time of closure were on unlit lanes well out of the town. As you say Sandy station survived because of its junction status with the Bedford-Cambridge line (not that much interchange of passengers can have taken place due to the paucity of service on both lines!), and by the time this line shut a small band of London commuters were present. Note though, when the bulk of the intermediate stations between Hitchin and Peterborough were shut, none of those closed were in a (albeit small) market town such as Sandy.
Roade and Castlethorpe also had very infrequent local services - Castlethorpe particularly geared for railway workers at the Wolverton shops. Splendid omnibus services served the districts far more frequently and conveniently, and they were far too far out (at that time) to be London commuter zone. How times have changed (electric trains on all three lines, and Milton Keynes too!)

 

[Helvellyn]

Cullompton, Wellington, Sharnbrook and Irchester were all probably a much of a muchness in railway passenger traffic terms in those days, i.e. all hopeless, not likely to develop, with good local bus services. I think that the question has been raised about Cullompton and Wellington because they were both small towns (albeit quite small) and have both grown exponentially in the intervening period.
Bedford was not a London commuter town when the local stations north thereof closed. Only senior managers, and railway staff, would have been able to afford the season ticket prices. Oakley was not at all equivalent to Bedford North - it was a rural village with some people working in Bedford or at the Royal Aircraft Establishment or some other local employer. Lots of fields separated Oakley from Clapham, and Clapham with Bedford. These places were nothing like they are now. Omnibuses catered for the public transport needs, and had done since the 1920s. Residents of Irchester worked in Rushden or Wellingborough, with a small few going to Northampton for work or a special shop. The railway did not cater for any of these needs as well as the bus (Wellingborough Station being a bus ride away from the shopping streets),
I am very familiar with Sandy - the station is contiguous to the town, and a fairly short walk - unlike Cullompton or Wellington which at the time of closure were on unlit lanes well out of the town. As you say Sandy station survived because of its junction status with the Bedford-Cambridge line (not that much interchange of passengers can have taken place due to the paucity of service on both lines!), and by the time this line shut a small band of London commuters were present. Note though, when the bulk of the intermediate stations between Hitchin and Peterborough were shut, none of those closed were in a (albeit small) market town such as Sandy.
Roade and Castlethorpe also had very infrequent local services - Castlethorpe particularly geared for railway workers at the Wolverton shops. Splendid omnibus services served the districts far more frequently and conveniently, and they were far too far out (at that time) to be London commuter zone. How times have changed (electric trains on all three lines, and Milton Keynes too!)

Yet it is an interesting example because Wellingborough, Kettering and Market Harborough became InterCity stations, with season tickets priced as such til this day. Even with BedPan electrification there was no extension north of the commuter service beyond Bedford. The West and East Coast main lines saw commuting extend further out. Maybe the fact the slows had been singled meant electrifying north of Bedford was ruled out, but if it had remained four track throughout to Kettering I wonder if NSE would have made a case to electrify further north with said reopenings?

Even now with electrification to Corby there hasn't been any consideration to extending Thameslink north to Kettering on the slows, with reopenings at Sharnbrook and Irchester (for Rushden/Higham Ferrers). So possibly because of the higher season ticket prices and lower InterCity service frequency mid-Northamptonshire property prices have remained below the equivalent prices for the likes of Northampton or Peterborough.

 

[RT4038]

Yet it is an interesting example because Wellingborough, Kettering and Market Harborough became InterCity stations, with season tickets priced as such til this day. Even with BedPan electrification there was no extension north of the commuter service beyond Bedford. The West and East Coast main lines saw commuting extend further out. Maybe the fact the slows had been singled meant electrifying north of Bedford was ruled out, but if it had remained four track throughout to Kettering I wonder if NSE would have made a case to electrify further north with said reopenings?

Even now with electrification to Corby there hasn't been any consideration to extending Thameslink north to Kettering on the slows, with reopenings at Sharnbrook and Irchester (for Rushden/Higham Ferrers). So possibly because of the higher season ticket prices and lower InterCity service frequency mid-Northamptonshire property prices have remained below the equivalent prices for the likes of Northampton or Peterborough.

I guess that at the time of the BedPan electrification money was only available for upgrading existing service and not speculating in new. On all three north main lines electrified out of London, none had new or re-opened stations as part of the electrification. Only the ECML have had them subsequently (Welham Green, Watton & Arlesey), none of which have been in the 50+ mile range. [I am excluding Milton Keynes Central, which is a bit of a different case!]
I am sure the owners of mid-Northamptonshire properties would like more stations and cheaper season ticket prices so their property values can soar - whether that is good for society at large is a matter of debate.

 

[70014IronDuke]

... Bedford was not a London commuter town when the local stations north thereof closed. Only senior managers, and railway staff, would have been able to afford the season ticket prices.

Expensive season tickets or not, I'm very sure that by 1959-1960, there was a signficant commuter flow from Bedford to London, certainly more than from Sandy at the time - but of course, absolutely nothing like today.

Oakley was not at all equivalent to Bedford North -

I agree. I shouldn't have put it that way.

However, I was making the point - in the context of this thread - that these stations, plus the likes of Castlerthorpe and Road, were on four-track routes. And they were closed. Of coure, they were lossmakers, and deemed too far from London at the time to ever bother trying to run a commuter service. Whereas Salisbury to Exeter, and the revitalised S&C saw the smaller stations as part of their essential bread and butter. Ditto lines like the G&SW and North of Scotland.

 

[RT4038]

Expensive season tickets or not, I'm very sure that by 1959-1960, there was a signficant commuter flow from Bedford to London, certainly more than from Sandy at the time - but of course, absolutely nothing like today.


I agree. I shouldn't have put it that way.

However, I was making the point - in the context of this thread - that these stations, plus the likes of Castlerthorpe and Road, were on four-track routes. And they were closed. Of coure, they were lossmakers, and deemed too far from London at the time to ever bother trying to run a commuter service. Whereas Salisbury to Exeter, and the revitalised S&C saw the smaller stations as part of their essential bread and butter. Ditto lines like the G&SW and North of Scotland.

I moved to Bedford as a lad in 1969, ten years after your timeline. The first (and only peak time) fast train to London (from Nottingham I think) left at 08h03 (or some such), arriving in London at about 08h55. My Dad was a railwayman, travelled daily on this train and had to get agreement from his bosses to vary his worktimes (almost unheard of then!) to catch this train. There was a half hourly DMU service before this (from 05h45) which generally stopped at all stations to Elstree, including one (06h45) which started at Kettering, by that time the only DMU working north of Bedford. These DMUs each only carried a few London commuters from Bedford. I would guess, at that time there was a max of 200 London commuters from Bedford spread over 5 peak trains. I expect Sandy had about 40, spread over two? Presumably there would have been a smattering of ordinary ticket holders, and (from Bedford) some commuters to the Luton factories. This was in 1969, so I would expect half this figure of London commuters ten years earlier? Bedford had quite an industrial base of itself in those days, completely different to now where it , and the surrounding districts, is a Commuterville a la the Southern Region.

At the time of Castlethorpe and Roade closing, what suburban trains there were mainly terminated at Tring, with a very limited service to Bletchley. If there was hardly any commuters from Bletchley, why would the railway bother with trying to run a commuter service from much further out, in the rural wilderness?

All of the small stations (in places the size of Sharnbrook and Irchester) on the Salisbury-Exeter line were closed in 1964 (Dinton, Semley, Templecombe, Milborne Port, Seaton Junction, Chard Junction etc). Only Tisbury escaped, not by plan but by a local bigwig. The remaining stations were in sizable settlements, but I bet if this line had retained express trains some of those would have gone too. All the small stations on the S&C were shut, and the plan for the North of Scotland was complete armageddon. However, if you are forced to run loss making services in such a hopeless situation, you may as well stop everywhere and get as many passengers as possible! Even on these lines some of the original stations are still closed.

 

[Springs Branch]

It's not quite that though, is it? I mean, Bedford - Kettering was four track, but all the wayside stations got the chop, and that was 1958-60 (or thereabouts)
.............
No BR manager wanted to stop a Class 1 train at Garstang and Catterall. Heck, they closed Carnforth main line platforms, and they were, arguably, worth keeping for faster connections to the Furness line.

There were a couple of stations on the WCML which closed in the 1960s despite being located on four-track sections at the time.

• Balshaw Lane & Euxton - closed 1969 (has since re-opened as Euxton Balshaw Lane)
• Coppull - closed 1969
• Golborne (South) - closed 1961

Each of these only had platforms on the slow lines, so stopping trains would not have got in the way of Inter-City expresses - unlike further north at Garstang and Hest Bank.

Until 1969, during peak hours, there was a limited, but adequate local DMU service on the part of the WCML between Warrington, Wigan and Preston. Several of these trains diverting via Earlestown & Newton-le-Willows along the way, so kept off the fast lines for most of their journey (apart from the bit between Wigan NW and Standish).

Obviously BR decided the local Lancashire traffic could be handled satisfactorily by long-distance services stopping only at Warrington BQ, Wigan NW and Preston, and no prospect of increasing demand for stopping trains.

This was a bit of a nuisance for my family, having branches in Wigan and Leyland. We then needed to use slower Ribble buses for visits, since for many years after 1969 there were no trains serving both Leyland and Wigan.

There have been calls in recent years for both Golborne and Coppull to re-open.
The site of Coppull station has been double track since the 1970s resignalling in the Preston area - when unfortunately BR relocated the divergence into four tracks northwards from Standish Jn to a new junction at Balshaw Lane.

 

[infobleep]

Expensive season tickets or not, I'm very sure that by 1959-1960, there was a signficant commuter flow from Bedford to London, certainly more than from Sandy at the time - but of course, absolutely nothing like today.


I agree. I shouldn't have put it that way.

However, I was making the point - in the context of this thread - that these stations, plus the likes of Castlerthorpe and Road, were on four-track routes. And they were closed. Of coure, they were lossmakers, and deemed too far from London at the time to ever bother trying to run a commuter service. Whereas Salisbury to Exeter, and the revitalised S&C saw the smaller stations as part of their essential bread and butter. Ditto lines like the G&SW and North of Scotland.

So were the smaller stations, that were part of the essential bread and butter, profit making?

 

[30907]

So were the smaller stations, that were part of the essential bread and butter, profit making?

Depends when you mean and which ones! See RT4038's reply above.
The S&C ones that reopened were almost certainly unviable with the historic service pattern and 1960s travel and leisure habits; possibly Kirkby Stephen is the exception, but it's poorly located. With a different service pattern (I'm thinking of Fiennes and the East Suffolk not Fiennes and Salisbury-Exeter!) it might have panned out slightly differently then, though I'm not sure.

 

[RT4038]

So were the smaller stations, that were part of the essential bread and butter, profit making?

I don't think any of the smaller stations are/were 'essential bread and butter', and certainly not profit making.

 

[111-111-1]

There must also have been stations on mainlines that have stayed open because there was a service to a branch that could still stop at them.

Would Duffield and Belper stayed open if the line to Matlock had not been retained as a branch?

 

[RT4038]

There must also have been stations on mainlines that have stayed open because there was a service to a branch that could still stop at them.

Would Duffield and Belper stayed open if the line to Matlock had not been retained as a branch?

Quite. There are other examples - Longniddry and Drem on the ECML out of Edinburgh (served by North Berwick trains) and even Carnforth. I expect there are more.

 

[infobleep]

I don't think any of the smaller stations are/were 'essential bread and butter', and certainly not profit making.

They I'm surprised more didn't close.

 

[Merle Haggard]

With regard to the discussion about buses serving West of Taunton, one has to bear in mind that the bus company concerned is Western National. The pre-Nationalisation railway companies bought a major share in the National company and this resulted in splitting the company geographically based on railway company operating areas, hence Eastern, Western and Southern National. (The National did not generally operate in the LMS area except for Bedfordshire and Essex, and it was considered better to have Eastern National encompass the small LMS area). As an aside, this explains the otherwise curious operating area of Southern National (North Devon, North Cornwall and ... Weymouth).

The result of this is that the National companies provided connections from railway stations to the surrounding towns and villages, and not trunk routes that would compete with railway services.

For instance, in an area I know, the Eastern National services started from, for example, the station forecourts at Northampton St John's and Leighton Buzzard, rather than the town centre or bus station, and ran through villages remote from railway stations.

 

[RT4038]

They I'm surprised more didn't close.

I think the context has become obscured ..... the S&C smaller stations did close, as did many on the G&SW & Far North lines. However, these lines have remained open (for political and social reasons) and have regional train services heavily subsidised by the State. These lines, and intermediate stations, are not 'profit making'. In these circumstances, having due regard for the trade off between journey time and revenue from intermediate stations, there is sense in stopping at some settlements en route. None of these lines have enough through traffic to justify express trains between the major settlements, which if there were, would leave the stopping trains with so few passengers (and revenue) as to be totally uneconomic. Hence why the main lines of this country have so few rural stations situated on them compared to the secondary routes. This is where we came in to this thread!

 

[RT4038]

With regard to the discussion about buses serving West of Taunton, one has to bear in mind that the bus company concerned is Western National. The pre-Nationalisation railway companies bought a major share in the National company and this resulted in splitting the company geographically based on railway company operating areas, hence Eastern, Western and Southern National. (The National did not generally operate in the LMS area except for Bedfordshire and Essex, and it was considered better to have Eastern National encompass the small LMS area). As an aside, this explains the otherwise curious operating area of Southern National (North Devon, North Cornwall and ... Weymouth).

The result of this is that the National companies provided connections from railway stations to the surrounding towns and villages, and not trunk routes that would compete with railway services.

For instance, in an area I know, the Eastern National services started from, for example, the station forecourts at Northampton St John's and Leighton Buzzard, rather than the town centre or bus station, and ran through villages remote from railway stations.

Western and Southern National were the same company and management - the routes predominantly in GWR territory were branded 'Western National' and those predominately in SR territory were branded 'Southern National'. A very early form of branding differentiation, which is much more prevalent today, and only abolished about 1970 following the set up of the National Bus Company, long after it had any relevance.
The GWR had set up Road Motor Services (I think Helston-The Lizard was the first) which were disposed of to Bus Companies in the 1920s, and took a shareholding in the local bus companies (both Tilling Group and BET).
The National companies may well have initially set out with providing connections from railway stations, but this policy did not survive far into the 30s. (The example of a route terminating at Leighton Buzzard Station came from Luton via Dunstable, heavily competing, and killing, the passenger rail service). The railway companies were quite content to take their dividends from the bus companies competing against them, and in due course 'National' and other operators ran plenty of competing services. I am sure the Railway managements of the time would have realised that many of their local and branch line passenger train services were unable to compete - indeed the LNER in particular culled many services in the early 1930s and I expect the others would have gained momentum if the 2nd World War had not intervened.
However, long bus routes (with the slow vehicles and winding roads) through deep rural countryside, competing with frequent express trains, (such as Taunton-Exeter) would probably not have been an economic proposition; particularly as mentioned earlier two bus companies from different groups. Not that being in the same group necessarily helped - the Salisbury-Yeovil services put on jointly by Southern National and Wilts & Dorset ( both 'Tilling') after the war only lasted about 12 years.

 

[randyrippley]

With regard to the discussion about buses serving West of Taunton, one has to bear in mind that the bus company concerned is Western National. The pre-Nationalisation railway companies bought a major share in the National company and this resulted in splitting the company geographically based on railway company operating areas, hence Eastern, Western and Southern National. (The National did not generally operate in the LMS area except for Bedfordshire and Essex, and it was considered better to have Eastern National encompass the small LMS area). As an aside, this explains the otherwise curious operating area of Southern National (North Devon, North Cornwall and ... Weymouth).

The result of this is that the National companies provided connections from railway stations to the surrounding towns and villages, and not trunk routes that would compete with railway services.

For instance, in an area I know, the Eastern National services started from, for example, the station forecourts at Northampton St John's and Leighton Buzzard, rather than the town centre or bus station, and ran through villages remote from railway stations.

Yeovil and various outstations such as Ilminster were also Southern National - and as far as I can remember so were West Dorset and East Devon. The Wikipedia entry underestimates the Southern Operating area

 

[RT4038]

Yeovil and various outstations such as Ilminster were also Southern National - and as far as I can remember so were West Dorset and East Devon. The Wikipedia entry underestimates the Southern Operating area

?SN Depots; Delabole, Bude, Bideford, Barnstaple, Ilfracombe, Seaton, Bridport, Chard, Weymouth, Yeovil plus all sorts of outstations stretching from Padstow to Swanage and Gillingham. Even further east 'Western National' had a depot in Trowbridge!
However, 'Western' and 'Southern' buses intermingled on some routes / places - most vehicles of the era had 3 piece number/via point/ultimate[terminal] apertures. However, latterly the 'via' point aperture was masked down with an ultimate blind displayed and the ultimate aperture had a short blind which could display 'Western National' or 'Southern National' depending on the nominal route ownership.

 

[randyrippley]

Western and Southern National were the same company and management - the routes predominantly in GWR territory were branded 'Western National' and those predominately in SR territory were branded 'Southern National'. A very early form of branding differentiation, which is much more prevalent today, and only abolished about 1970 following the set up of the National Bus Company, long after it had any relevance.
The GWR had set up Road Motor Services (I think Helston-The Lizard was the first) which were disposed of to Bus Companies in the 1920s, and took a shareholding in the local bus companies (both Tilling Group and BET).
The National companies may well have initially set out with providing connections from railway stations, but this policy did not survive far into the 30s. (The example of a route terminating at Leighton Buzzard Station came from Luton via Dunstable, heavily competing, and killing, the passenger rail service). The railway companies were quite content to take their dividends from the bus companies competing against them, and in due course 'National' and other operators ran plenty of competing services. I am sure the Railway managements of the time would have realised that many of their local and branch line passenger train services were unable to compete - indeed the LNER in particular culled many services in the early 1930s and I expect the others would have gained momentum if the 2nd World War had not intervened.
However, long bus routes (with the slow vehicles and winding roads) through deep rural countryside, competing with frequent express trains, (such as Taunton-Exeter) would probably not have been an economic proposition; particularly as mentioned earlier two bus companies from different groups. Not that being in the same group necessarily helped - the Salisbury-Yeovil services put on jointly by Southern National and Wilts & Dorset ( both 'Tilling') after the war only lasted about 12 years.
[/QUO

Your post outlines the problems of generalisation. For instance there was never a direct Yeovil-Taunton National Bus service until the railway closed. There were National services from Martock and Montacute into Yeovil but these were just local - and terminated at Yeovil Town station, even after it closed - eventually moving to the then new bus station. There was no bus competition between the two towns. Interestingly one of the local indies, Hutchings and Cornelius used Pen Mill as its Yeovil Terminus.
Paradoxically Southern/Western National also ran the Royal Blue network which could be regarded as longer distance competition