1960s UK hovertrain

[Adlington]

Somewhat less successful than hovercraft...

A museum is hoping to raise money to preserve a hovertrain that threatened to revolutionise travel in the 1960s.

The monorail transport was an elevated, high speed hover train that was tested on a track on the Cambridgeshire Fens before being scrapped by the government.

The Railworld museum in Peterborough museum is storing the last known prototype and hopes to raise fund to put it under cover.

http://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-engla...museum-in-bid-to-preserve-1960s-uk-hovertrain

 

[gordonthemoron]

Didn't you use to be able to see that from the ECML south of Peterborough station?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Was that a Maglev train?

 

[Darandio]

Was that a Maglev train?

No, a Maglev uses magnets as i'm sure you know.

The idea behind the Hovertrain was to ride on a cushion of air created by huge fans, just like a hovercraft.

 

[Adlington]

Magnetic force was used to pull the train along the track.

A detailed description and history of the project

 

[D365]

Didn't you use to be able to see that from the ECML south of Peterborough station?

It's still there, but prone to weathering. The volunteers got around to repainting it recently, they are hoping in the medium term to redevelop the south site around where it is located.

 

[DerekC]

Magnetic force was used to pull the train along the track.

A detailed description and history of the project

I recall it reasonably well. The reasons for cancellation were (for once) very sensible - basically that the hovertrain was always going to have much higher levels of aerodynamic drag than a conventional train, so it would be much less snergy efficient. The pity is that they didn't take up Eric Lathwaite's idea of converting the test track for use by a maglev. On the other hand maglevs seem currently to be a dead end as well.

 

[Adlington]

The reasons for cancellation were (for once) very sensible - basically that the hovertrain was always going to have much higher levels of aerodynamic drag than a conventional train, so it would be much less snergy efficient.

But the drag depends only on the speed and the profile of the train. So it should not matter whether it was a hovertrain or a conventional one.

Besides, speaking of the energy efficiency, I don't know whether the linear motor (in hovertrain) is more or less efficient than the conventional type.

 

[Taunton]

The main reason for the failure of hovertrains, maglevs, monorails, and other "mad professor" systems is that they are not compatible with the rest of the existing system. The approach which really showed the way with this was the TGV in France, carrying on beyond the dedicated track to wherever you wish in any direction on regular tracks, and allowing the system to develop incrementally rather than having to do the whole thing at once.

Even the BART system in San Francisco, pretty normal but which chose a non-standard gauge of 5'6", now finds this incompatibility a considerable nuisance which increases their costs substantially because they cannot buy standard items or hire in standard works vehicles, everything has to be made specially.

Quite separately there are a range of practical issues. The noise of the hovertrain from the levitating air blast, even the little test train, was one of the reasons why its test track had to be built in the middle of nowhere in The Fens.

Imagine what a failure motorways would have been if you had to buy separate cars to drive on them, which could then not be used on normal roads.

 

[DerekC]

But the drag depends only on the speed and the profile of the train. So it should not matter whether it was a hovertrain or a conventional one.
.

That's what I would have thought - but it turns out that the air for the hovertrain cushions has to be accelerated up to the speed of the train, which at high speed very substantially increases the drag.

 

[yorkie]

unlocked to enable @bspahh to post an update

 

[D365]

unlocked to enable @bspahh to post an update

That sounds promising, I’ve not been in touch with Railworld since 2016 so it’ll be good to hear if any progress.

 

[bspahh]

There is a 30 minute video from 35mm movie film on the Hovertrain at

There is a story in the Ely Standard about it here

'Most significant' Fens archive footage in years

Thousands of feet of rediscovered film footage shot during the 1970s testing of the Hovertrain between Earith and Sutton will feature in a new…

www.elystandard.co.uk

It says

Fenland On Film say their goal is to produce a documentary that tells the story of the Hovertrain along with the people involved and they aim to present it in 4K.

Together with Drew, Brian and Railworld, Fenland on Film is appealing for technical and financial support to make their dream a reality.
Email Drew via [email protected]

 

[Gloster]

It appears that the location of the model at the beginning was Hythe, near Southampton. The building now seems to be local council offices, but there is no sign of the model on Google Maps.

 

[Taunton]

Notable that the Skytrain metro system in Vancouver, Canada, has slowly rolled back from these "advanced" concepts. Originally conceived as best 1970s technology, a Maglev system powered by Linear Motors, it became apparent at the detailed design stage that Maglev, like Hovertrain, was an impractical nuisance when it came to things like points, so it was redesigned as conventional rail, which of course could be done very quickly rather than needing decades of research. It kept the linear motor for power, with the reaction rail between the track, which has operated just about adequately since it opened in 1986, though needing detailed maintenance, but the more recent major line of the system has gone back to conventional electric motors, as being more practical. The little individual electric cars envisaged to run unmanned on their own have been joined up to conventional 6-car trains running at conventional metro frequencies, and more modern stock is what you find in various metro systems around the world.

 

[DerekC]

It appears that the location of the model at the beginning was Hythe, near Southampton. The building now seems to be local council offices, but there is no sign of the model on Google Maps.

That's right - here is a clip from the 1968 1:2500 map which shows the hovercraft development centre but not the test track - probably it was only there for a few months. The building is now a (very posh) HQ for the Hythe and Dibden Parish Council.

Notable that the Skytrain metro system in Vancouver, Canada, has slowly rolled back from these "advanced" concepts. Originally conceived as best 1970s technology, a Maglev system powered by Linear Motors, it became apparent at the detailed design stage that Maglev, like Hovertrain, was an impractical nuisance when it came to things like points, so it was redesigned as conventional rail, which of course could be done very quickly rather than needing decades of research. It kept the linear motor for power, with the reaction rail between the track, which has operated just about adequately since it opened in 1986, though needing detailed maintenance, but the more recent major line of the system has gone back to conventional electric motors, as being more practical. The little individual electric cars envisaged to run unmanned on their own have been joined up to conventional 6-car trains running at conventional metro frequencies, and more modern stock is what you find in various metro systems around the world.

The linear motor drive did have one big advantage which was that there were no service brakes on the wheels, so no wheel slide, so much easier for the prototype Seltrac system to work out train position. I know that because Alcatel (then owners of Seltrac) spent many happy(ish) hours on DLR trying to get the positioning to work accurately enough for a conventional train with braked axles using two tachos and an accelerometer. But that's a thread for another day!

 

[Taunton]

I think Seltrac was in use on both Vancouver Skytrain and London's DLR, the latter within sight of where I write this now, but I've forgotten the details of what signalling got replaced on the DLR by what in the 1990s, and why. I do recall seeing that when the Skytrain opened in 1986 they ran a crush-loaded interleaved shuttle between the two sites of the Expo 86 major international exhibition there, running and reversing in between the mainstream service in a way I've never seen before or since, with trains following one another at about 200m intervals, and points reversing in a second - something that neither Maglev nor Tracked Hovercraft could come close to.

It would be good to know just why Vancouver abandoned linear propulsion for their later developments.

It's always interesting to me how technically we spend millions on developing the sort of accuracy that manual drivers achieve just without a lot of extra training. I remember the early stages of the Jubilee Line Extension where they had gone back to manual driving, which worked just spot on with aligning platform edge doors, but when after immense efforts, weekend disruptions and cost it was converted to automatic I experienced several overshoots, generally just a few feet but it was beyond the tolerance, which meant continuing to the next station, to the gross inconvenience of many on board.

 

[SargeNpton]

The hovertrain at Peterborough, as seen in 2019.

 

[Paul Jones 88]

I really enjoyed the video, I remember watching lots of stuff like that in the 60s and 70s when I was a kid, it got this boy on a concrete council estate interested in science, these days there is nothing like that on the telly.

 

[DerekC]

I think Seltrac was in use on both Vancouver Skytrain and London's DLR, the latter within sight of where I write this now, but I've forgotten the details of what signalling got replaced on the DLR by what in the 1990s, and why.

Seltrac was first commissioned on Vancouver Skytrain in 1985 in time for Expo 86. DLR opened in 1987 with a very peculiar GEC system that as far as I recall used track circuits for train separation with an overlay ATO which operated station to station, so at each station the data (distance run versus speed) was loaded for the next one. How the ATP and the accurate positioning for stopping was done I can't remember. Seltrac was installed on DLR between 1992, starting on the Beckton Extension which opened in 1994 and ran as a separate route between Beckton and Poplar for a while, and 1995 when the cutover of the rest of the railway was completed.

It's always interesting to me how technically we spend millions on developing the sort of accuracy that manual drivers achieve just without a lot of extra training. I remember the early stages of the Jubilee Line Extension where they had gone back to manual driving, which worked just spot on with aligning platform edge doors, but when after immense efforts, weekend disruptions and cost it was converted to automatic I experienced several overshoots, generally just a few feet but it was beyond the tolerance, which meant continuing to the next station, to the gross inconvenience of many on board.

The theory is that an automatic system can equal or better the best a human driver can achieve in terms of minimising the platform reoccupation time whilst meeting the stopping accuracy requirement, and deliver that repeatably, day-in-day-out. A human driver (particularly a newbie) tends to approach the stop point more slowly so as to be certain of stopping in the window.

 

[Taunton]

Vancouver Skytrain is obliquely relevant to a Hovertrain thread because it was apparently one of the (numerous) technology contenders. Krauss-Maffei from Germany were selected with their Transurban Maglev system, but quite soon withdrew and the project dropped back to conventional running, though with linear power. Germany always seemed to be into maglev. The same technology abandonment and replacement by conventional running small cars affected a comparable system at the same time in the east end of Toronto.

There was however a Maglev at Expo86 in Vancouver. It was from Japan, and ran on a 400m demo track in the exhibition grounds. It was stunningly unspectacular, especially after queueing for over an hour in the summer heat to ride on it. The car probably held about 30-40 people. Because of some overheating issue it could only shuttle back and forth about once every 15 minutes, so most of the experience inside was waiting for it to start. By the time it finally did so, to run there and back at about 15mph, most on board were thoroughly hacked off with it, not what you really want on a demonstrator.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

I've seen this hover-train while on trips through Peterborough, I wondered if the insides were too cramped, considering the concrete rail takes up the middle on the above pictured RTV 31 carriage, where exactly were passengers supposed to go? The height is very low, there's no room for a corridor.

 

[edwin_m]

Vancouver Skytrain is obliquely relevant to a Hovertrain thread because it was apparently one of the (numerous) technology contenders. Krauss-Maffei from Germany were selected with their Transurban Maglev system, but quite soon withdrew and the project dropped back to conventional running, though with linear power. Germany always seemed to be into maglev. The same technology abandonment and replacement by conventional running small cars affected a comparable system at the same time in the east end of Toronto.

There was however a Maglev at Expo86 in Vancouver. It was from Japan, and ran on a 400m demo track in the exhibition grounds. It was stunningly unspectacular, especially after queueing for over an hour in the summer heat to ride on it. The car probably held about 30-40 people. Because of some overheating issue it could only shuttle back and forth about once every 15 minutes, so most of the experience inside was waiting for it to start. By the time it finally did so, to run there and back at about 15mph, most on board were thoroughly hacked off with it, not what you really want on a demonstrator.

One of the links above notes that the Skytrain was later converted to use conventional rather than linear motors.

I was also at Expo86 and vaguely remember riding the Skytrain between the sites but no recollection of a maglev - I was only there for a couple of hours as a backpacking stop so I may have just decided the queue was too long to bother with. This was the ancestor of the Birmingham Airport maglev, which I remember stopping off at International to ride on and I thought it was to or from a university interview in 1983, but web search says it didn't open until 84. Ironically either before or after this I had a hop to or from New Street in the coach re-bodied with Leyland National parts - a few years later I joined BR Research and for some years reported to someone who'd had a hand in both projects.

 

[Taunton]

I think the Leyland coach body often ran on a Manchester to Bournemouth and return daily service, passing International. If you can remember if it was morning or late afternoon that would probably fix which way it was going.

I was of the impression that the Linear was still in use on the first two Skytrain lines, just had not been used on the more recent one out to the airport. Recent Youtube images still show the reaction rail completely in place. It would be quite a rework of the early 1980s cars to fit conventional motors.

Expo86 was a notably large exhibition, on multiple sites, and bits still remain in Vancouver 35 years later, not least that the first Skytrain line is still called the Expo Line. It is generally considered to be one of the best international exhibitions ever. Its theme was transport, which various exhibits related to with greater or lesser accuracy! Hence the Maglev. The British pavilion was the first to sign up, was rather pedestrian compared to the showmanship elsewhere, and if I'm not mistaken actually had a BR Research display as part of it. The sort of thing that a government-inspired exhibition might include in 1986, sticking rather too closely to the official theme. I also think Professor Eric Laithwaite, proponent of both Linear Motors and Maglev (and Linear propulsion of the Hovertrain) had come to the opening. He must have been impressed by the commercial running of the Skytrain, and despaired at the Japanese Maglev demonstrator, described and pictured here :

Maglev - Wikipedia

 

[edwin_m]

I think the Leyland coach body often ran on a Manchester to Bournemouth and return daily service, passing International. If you can remember if it was morning or late afternoon that would probably fix which way it was going.

I was of the impression that the Linear was still in use on the first two Skytrain lines, just had not been used on the more recent one out to the airport. Recent Youtube images still show the reaction rail completely in place. It would be quite a rework of the early 1980s cars to fit conventional motors.

Expo86 was a notably large exhibition, on multiple sites, and bits still remain in Vancouver 35 years later, not least that the first Skytrain line is still called the Expo Line. It is generally considered to be one of the best international exhibitions ever. Its theme was transport, which various exhibits related to with greater or lesser accuracy! Hence the Maglev. The British pavilion was the first to sign up, was rather pedestrian compared to the showmanship elsewhere, and if I'm not mistaken actually had a BR Research display as part of it. The sort of thing that a government-inspired exhibition might include in 1986, sticking rather too closely to the official theme. I also think Professor Eric Laithwaite, proponent of both Linear Motors and Maglev (and Linear propulsion of the Hovertrain) had come to the opening. He must have been impressed by the commercial running of the Skytrain, and despaired at the Japanese Maglev demonstrator, described and pictured here :

Maglev - Wikipedia

It was either on the way to the interview (at Warwick University, bus from Coventry) or the way back, so can't be more specific, but I'm pretty sure it was a cross-country service. You may be right on Skytrain, I think it was just a Wikipedia link so may not be reliable. I actually remember very little of Expo86 - I took lots of photos but lost all the film when my camera bag was stolen in Toronto a few days later.