1970s EDB-FTW diagram

[Mathieu]

Looking at the 1970s diagram for the sleeper between Edinburgh and Fort William, did the sleeper go into Glasgow Queen St. High Level and then back out? And if so what was the arrival time and was it a different 37 that pulled it back out to Fort William?

 

[hexagon789]

Looking at the 1970s diagram for the sleeper between Edinburgh and Fort William, did the sleeper go into Glasgow Queen St. High Level and then back out? And if so what was the arrival time and was it a different 37 that pulled it back out to Fort William?

There isn't a sleeper between Edinburgh and Fort William that I can see.

Looking at my 1976/77 ScR timetable, which from the snippet you've posted there looks to be the same one, there are no direct Edinburgh-Fort William trains of any sort.

Also for the period, I'm not sure it would be 37s either?

 

[30907]

There isn't a sleeper between Edinburgh and Fort William that I can see.

Looking at my 1976/77 ScR timetable, which from the snippet you've posted there looks to be the same one, there are no direct Edinburgh-Fort William trains of any sort.

Also for the period, I'm not sure it would be 37s either?

Both in the days when it ran from Kings Cross via Edinburgh, and in the timetable shown (when it ran from/to Euston but possibly detached at Mossend), the sleeper used High Level and was attached there to the Glasgow-Mallaig train. And yes, a second loco was needed.
Avoiding the High Level by various means didn't happen until the sleeper was retimed much earlier northbound/later southbound.

 

[hexagon789]

Both in the days when it ran from Kings Cross via Edinburgh, and in the timetable shown (when it ran from/to Euston but possibly detached at Mossend), the sleeper used High Level and was attached there to the Glasgow-Mallaig train. And yes, a second loco was needed.
Avoiding the High Level by various means didn't happen until the sleeper was retimed much earlier northbound/later southbound.

Certainly from the timetable it looked like it was seperate trains.

Any idea if the traction on the WHL? I was thinking possibly 27s?

 

[adrock1976]

Looking at the image above, I have noticed the absence of Loch Eil Outward Bound (between Locheilside and Corpach) and Loch Awe (between Taynuilt and Dalmally).

Did both of those stations reopen during the 1980s/90s at some point? I am aware of Falls of Cruachan (Summer Only) being opened circa 1988.

 

[hexagon789]

Looking at the image above, I have noticed the absence of Loch Eil Outward Bound (between Locheilside and Corpach) and Loch Awe (between Taynuilt and Dalmally).

Did both of those stations reopen during the 1980s/90s at some point? I am aware of Falls of Cruachan (Summer Only) being opened circa 1988.

Loch Awe was closed from 1965 'til 1985 and Loch Eil Outward Bound opened from new in May 1985.

 

[Highlandspring]

Looking at the 1970s diagram for the sleeper between Edinburgh and Fort William

That isn’t a diagram.

 

[Siemens Staines]

Certainly from the timetable it looked like it was seperate trains.

Any idea if the traction on the WHL? I was thinking possibly 27s?

It was a pair of 27s on the West Highland line. As I recall when the train ran to Kings Cross it was only a single 27 between Queen St and Waverley after the day coaches had been detached. The through coaches were then attached to another portion which I think was from Aberdeen, although it may have been a portion that originated from Edinburgh. The use of Kings Cross was historic for the WHL sleeper because the WHL was originally North British which became part of LNER in 1923 and hence why Kings Cross was the destination instead of Euston. This was still the case for a few years after WCML was juiced, and I don't think the change to Euston was made until circa 1976?

 

[hexagon789]

It was a pair of 27s on the West Highland line. As I recall when the train ran to Kings Cross it was only a single 27 between Queen St and Waverley after the day coaches had been detached. The through coaches were then attached to another portion which I think was from Aberdeen, although it may have been a portion that originated from Edinburgh. The use of Kings Cross was historic for the WHL sleeper because the WHL was originally North British which became part of LNER in 1923 and hence why Kings Cross was the destination instead of Euston. This was still the case for a few years after WCML was juiced, and I don't think the change to Euston was made until circa 1976?

Was thinking 27s because I always picturethe WHL in the 1970s with 27s but 37s for the 1980s.

 

[47271]

I think that the OP didn't realise that an italicised time means a connection and not a direct service.

I'm reliably informed by someone who was there at the time that the West Highland Lines went over to steam heat Class 37s at the very start of 1981. Before that it was 27s all the way right through the 1970s.

 

[hexagon789]

I think that the OP didn't realise that an italicised time means a connection and not a direct service.

I think that is the case, but modern timetables still use italic type for connections including ScotRail ones for this very route.

m reliably informed by someone who was there at the time that the West Highland Lines went over to steam heat Class 37s at the very start of 1981. Before that it was 27s all the way right through the 1970s.

Thank you for narrowing it down.

 

[Mag_seven]

Looking at the 1970s diagram for the sleeper between Edinburgh and Fort William, did the sleeper go into Glasgow Queen St. High Level and then back out? And if so what was the arrival time and was it a different 37 that pulled it back out to Fort William?

The sleeper coaches referred to in the timetable (not "diagram") were detached from the Glasgow bound service at Cowlairs loop and then proceeded to Mossend (I think) to be attached to another service there. This is my memory of what happened having travelled on this service during the period as a child.

 

[30907]

The sleeper coaches referred to in the timetable (not "diagram") were detached from the Glasgow bound service at Cowlairs loop and then proceeded to Mossend (I think) to be attached to another service there. This is my memory of what happened having travelled on this service during the period as a child.

Good point. Apologies, I was thinking of the outward working. The curve permitting direct travel from Springburn to Queen St hadn't been built back then (just checked my 1977 Baker!), so the down train must have reversed at Cowlairs (presumably with a fresh loco rather than a run-round) into QS to attach the remainder rather than attach on plain line at Cowlairs.

 

[hexagon789]

Good point. Apologies, I was thinking of the outward working. The curve permitting direct travel from Springburn to Queen St hadn't been built back then (just checked my 1977 Baker!), so the down train must have reversed at Cowlairs (presumably with a fresh loco rather than a run-round) into QS to attach the remainder rather than attach on plain line at Cowlairs.

I think the direct curve opened in 1989 or 1990. Prior to that the Springburn-Cumbernauld shuttles that originated in Queen Street reversed to gain the line to/from Springburn/Cumbernauld.

 

[delt1c]

It was a pair of 27s on the West Highland line. As I recall when the train ran to Kings Cross it was only a single 27 between Queen St and Waverley after the day coaches had been detached. The through coaches were then attached to another portion which I think was from Aberdeen, although it may have been a portion that originated from Edinburgh. The use of Kings Cross was historic for the WHL sleeper because the WHL was originally North British which became part of LNER in 1923 and hence why Kings Cross was the destination instead of Euston. This was still the case for a few years after WCML was juiced, and I don't think the change to Euston was made until circa 1976?

Used the service a few times when it went via the WCML. The fort William portion detached at Mossend and was worked forward to Queen St by what ever diesel was available, once had a 20 on the front. At Queen St the day coaches were added which included a Restaurant car. This was a heavy train and on all occasions that i used it, was hauled by a single 27. The loco which brought the sleeping cars from Mossend banked the train out of Queen St. After that it was was down to the 27 to handle it.

 

[Taunton]

My recollections in 1976-7 was universally single Class 27s on the West Highland, substantial trains on steep gradients, the Fort Williams all with a buffet car. Banking out of Queen Street by the incoming loco was standard for hauled services, and on one occasion a Met-Cam dmu which had been advised as being one engine down but no substitute was available, so a 27 was sent down first to push it back up to Cowlairs.

The 27s were real stalwarts of Scotland, whether hammering over the West Highland mountains, getting up to 100mph (not a misprint) all day back and forth on the Glasgow-Edinburgh push-me-pull-yous, or on substantial freights. They were driven primarily on the ammeter, having it up against the line. BRCW must have matched the engine, generator and transmission particularly well - not a universal skill by diesel manufacturers. For a very short while in the 1960s the re-engined Class 29s were tried on the West Highland, theoretically they had an extra 100hp, but did not respond to being driven the same way and developed transmission defects as a result.

 

[Siemens Staines]

My recollections of pairs of 27s on the Kings Cross sleeper was from the D53xx era circa 1973 so perhaps it was reduced to a single loco in later years? Everything else was usually a single Class 27, but occasionally a Class 25 would appear. Pairs did sometimes appear on daytime trains, but it certainly wasn't common place.

 

[delt1c]

The 08.35 Queen St to Oban was often double headed , running in ex works type 2’a from St Rolox. Runs as tandem though not multiple. And the ex works loco removed at Crianlarich. I remember a 26 paired with a 27 once ( very rare to see a 26 on WHL and another occasion a 24 ( again rare) memory serves me correct was 24.005.

 

[Taunton]

With the length of the summertime WHL trains, plus the incoming loco with the stock, even a single loco only just seemed to fit into the Queen Street layout anyway. Although I did hear of the trains being used as a running-in turn by St Rollox, with a separate crew and likely an engineer or two on board as well. Bad luck to the train engine if a defect occurred though. It seems very different to how Swindon did running in, down the Badminton line, reverse round the Stoke Gifford triangles, and if all looked OK a full blast return back home for lunch.

I actually haven't been down the line since Class 27 days, but the summertime loads then, American Interrail-ing student tourists, troops of scouts with full camping kit taking up much of the van (and there was generally more than one van), Glaswegian buffet steward's choice words as he was overwhelmed by the queue, etc, all just seems improbable to fit into the multiple units of nowadays.