1972 tube stock replacement

MatthewRead

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I understand these trains are now to go first. Is this true? see https://www.mylondon.news/news/zone-1-news/london-underground-bakerloo-line-new-21153107.
Transport for London (TfL)'s budget plans published yesterday (July 26) confirm that: "New Bakerloo line trains to replace the oldest fleet in the UK" will be ordered in the financial year 2023/2024 on the basis that TfL gets £1.6billion it wants in funding from the government for capital investment.
The same documentation also confirmed that: "Work to improve accessibility on the Bakerloo line fleet has commenced and overhauls and refurbishment of the Metropolitan, Victoria, Piccadilly and Central line fleets are ongoing."

This will enable the current trains to continue until the end of the decade when the new trains should arrive to take over from them.

By then, at almost 60 years old, the current Bakerloo line trains will be either preserved, scrapped or used for spares.


I thought the 1973 tube stock on the Piccadilly line was going first.
 
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LUYMun

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Don't let the title nor caption fool you, as it explicitly states in the article:
Transport for London (TfL)'s budget plans published yesterday (July 26) confirm that: "New Bakerloo line trains to replace the oldest fleet in the UK" will be ordered in the financial year 2023/2024 on the basis that TfL gets £1.6billion it wants in funding from the government for capital investment.
[...]
Although the Piccadilly line's trains are younger than the Bakerloo's, it will be the next line to receive new trains, which are currently being constructed in Yorkshire and in Austria. This is because the Piccadilly line is busier than the Bakerloo, much of which is duplicated by London Overground services which use brand new Class 710 trains. Those trains, called New Tube for London (NTfL), are expected to enter service from 2025, around three to five years before these new Bakerloo line ones.
Neither should I trust journalism the likes of MyLondon (though I do appreciate the usage of @simple simon's 1972 tube stock photo).
 
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Mikey C

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Don't let the title nor caption fool you, as it explicitly states in the article:

Neither should I trust journalism the likes of MyLondon (though I do appreciate the usage of @simple simon's 1972 tube stock photo).
The article doesn't say the Bakerloo line will get new trains before the Piccadilly anyway, whether in the detail or the title!

All along, I've always assumed they'll be ordered from Siemens so that production can continue at Goole after the Piccadilly Line trains, and that something will be sorted out between TfL and the government
 

Vespa

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That's if Tfl gets any money for it, post Covid belts will be tightened as we pay off the cost of furlough, vaccination program, health care costs, loans etc

In my opinion it could be another 10 years before we see any stock replacement, so Bakerloo line will retain its museum line status for a bit longer.
 

bramling

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That's if Tfl gets any money for it, post Covid belts will be tightened as we pay off the cost of furlough, vaccination program, health care costs, loans etc

In my opinion it could be another 10 years before we see any stock replacement, so Bakerloo line will retain its museum line status for a bit longer.

Yes this paper seems to be aspirational rather than a firm commitment. I’d say it’s still a reasonably good bet that 72 stock will see 60 years. Not a guaranteed bet, but a good one.

A lot may depend on how things go with the Central Line fleet. Money is having to be put into both the fleet and the signalling simply to keep them going for the now. On paper the 92 stock should have another 10-15 years left (more if benchmarked against other LU fleets of late), however if the works currently underway fail to stem the chronic reliability issues the Central Line could well have to jump the queue.

A further complication is the Piccadilly Line signalling. The sub surface lines still have a very long way to go, and the way things have gone TfL have boxed themselves into a very uncomfortable corner where they don’t really have much freedom to choose who supplies the Piccadilly Line replacement signalling, which doesn’t leave them with much bargaining power when it comes to price.

Add in the floating of potential Jubilee Line fleet replacement, and all of a sudden there’s quite a shopping list of quite expensive projects. The only thing the Bakerloo has going for it is it doesn’t require that many trains compared to other lines, but the flip side of the coin is the uncertainty over Lewisham.

It will be very easy to put the Bakerloo in the “no action required” box, at least until the 72 stock properly fall apart.
 

Nym

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If anyone has see what's been needing to happen with the corrosion repair on the Bakerloo Line fleet, they literally are falling apart already.
 

Mikey C

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That's if Tfl gets any money for it, post Covid belts will be tightened as we pay off the cost of furlough, vaccination program, health care costs, loans etc

In my opinion it could be another 10 years before we see any stock replacement, so Bakerloo line will retain its museum line status for a bit longer.
A red wall factory set up specifically to make Tube trains, politically it would be disastrous for the Tories if it shut down because no follow on orders were placed. They know that and TfL know that...

If anyone has see what's been needing to happen with the corrosion repair on the Bakerloo Line fleet, they literally are falling apart already.
Now the Mayor election has passed, hopefully there can be a more grown up relationship between the government and the Mayor. Nobody benefits if the Bakerloo line turns into a complete shambles
 

tom1649

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Is 1973 stock permitted to run on the Bakerloo? They could potentially cascade some of them over if they are in superior condition to the 1972 stock. I vaguely remember reading something about 73 stock interfering with other lines' signalling since they were refurbished in 1996-2000.
 

LUYMun

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Is 1973 stock permitted to run on the Bakerloo? They could potentially cascade some of them over if they are in superior condition to the 1972 stock. I vaguely remember reading something about 73 stock interfering with other lines' signalling since they were refurbished in 1996-2000.
I don't think the 1973 Tube Stock would be able to clear the winding Bakerloo tunnels, for each car is about 1 or 2 metres longer than the 1972 tube stock (measures below). Even if they do clear, an extra car would be needed, and the interior would need a rethink as their current state is not exactly suited when there isn't an airport to serve on the Bakerloo. Above all, why is the extra effort needed to transfer the 1973 tube stock onto the Bakerloo if there'll be there for <10 years?

1973 DM - 17.473m
1973 T / UNDM - 17.676m

1972 DM - 16.091m
1972 T / UNDM - 15.997m
 

tom1649

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I don't think the 1973 Tube Stock would be able to clear the winding Bakerloo tunnels, for each car is about 1 or 2 metres longer than the 1972 tube stock (measures below). Even if they do clear, an extra car would be needed, and the interior would need a rethink as their current state is not exactly suited when there isn't an airport to serve on the Bakerloo. Above all, why is the extra effort needed to transfer the 1973 tube stock onto the Bakerloo if there'll be there for <10 years?

1973 DM - 17.473m
1973 T / UNDM - 17.676m

1972 DM - 16.091m
1972 T / UNDM - 15.997m

It wouldn't be the first time stock has transferred for just a few years' operation. For example, back in the 80s, some 1959 stock was temporarily transferred to the Bakerloo.

I was thinking that with the quieter nature of the Bakerloo and the fact the 73ts cars are longer they'd get away with 6 car operation. I also think the interior would be sufficient for Bakerloo Line loadings. If you started having to spend money on them just to transfer them over it wouldn't be economic. Besides, if the cars don't fit the Bakerloo's bendy tunnels then it's a non starter.
 

Journeyman

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A red wall factory set up specifically to make Tube trains, politically it would be disastrous for the Tories if it shut down because no follow on orders were placed. They know that and TfL know that...


Now the Mayor election has passed, hopefully there can be a more grown up relationship between the government and the Mayor. Nobody benefits if the Bakerloo line turns into a complete shambles
That won't happen until Boris Johnson is no longer PM. He's determined to make Khan look as bad as possible.
 

Nym

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You sure about that? :p
Given that I participated in a feasability study for the long term use of 1973TS on the Bakerloo Line, yes.

And to answer your probable next question TRC666 / 999666 part of the TRV is modified...

EDIT:
Just re-read what I put, and yes.

Although, 1973TS did have to be modified in it's first form as well, but that was done as part of the delivery of the fleet, 999666 has been further modified.
 

bramling

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It wouldn't be the first time stock has transferred for just a few years' operation. For example, back in the 80s, some 1959 stock was temporarily transferred to the Bakerloo.

I was thinking that with the quieter nature of the Bakerloo and the fact the 73ts cars are longer they'd get away with 6 car operation. I also think the interior would be sufficient for Bakerloo Line loadings. If you started having to spend money on them just to transfer them over it wouldn't be economic. Besides, if the cars don't fit the Bakerloo's bendy tunnels then it's a non starter.

The obvious fleet plan simply from the point of view of making the numbers fit, is to do the Piccadilly, then Jubilee, then Central.

The existing Jubilee fleet could then be split in two, with 25 or so trains topping up the Northern fleet, and the remainder going to the Bakerloo - subject to it being viable to make them fit, of course.

I can’t see any other way of justifying Jubilee fleet replacement, as there’s no way it stands up to scrutiny to write-off a load of mid-life trains. As it is the 7th cars would all be surplus.

The benefit of using the 96 stock on the Bakerloo is it buys a decade or so, by which time they will know what’s happening with any southern extension.

Time will tell though, and there’s a lot of variables in there.
 

Mikey C

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The obvious fleet plan simply from the point of view of making the numbers fit, is to do the Piccadilly, then Jubilee, then Central.

The existing Jubilee fleet could then be split in two, with 25 or so trains topping up the Northern fleet, and the remainder going to the Bakerloo - subject to it being viable to make them fit, of course.

I can’t see any other way of justifying Jubilee fleet replacement, as there’s no way it stands up to scrutiny to write-off a load of mid-life trains. As it is the 7th cars would all be surplus.

The benefit of using the 96 stock on the Bakerloo is it buys a decade or so, by which time they will know what’s happening with any southern extension.

Time will tell though, and there’s a lot of variables in there.
If the longer 73 carriages won't fit on the Bakerloo, I assume the same applies to the 96 stock.

I don't see why the southern extension would delay providing new trains for the Bakerloo, as the whole point of the NTfL scheme is to have a pretty standard standard design for the various lines. If in 2035 you need some more Bakerloo line trains as the extension has been given the go ahead, they'll still be in production and you can order some more.
 

Nym

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If the longer 73 carriages won't fit on the Bakerloo, I assume the same applies to the 96 stock.

I don't see why the southern extension would delay providing new trains for the Bakerloo, as the whole point of the NTfL scheme is to have a pretty standard standard design for the various lines. If in 2035 you need some more Bakerloo line trains as the extension has been given the go ahead, they'll still be in production and you can order some more.
Correct. 1996TS won't fit on the Bakerloo either as they're also "long cars" for LUL.
 

JonathanH

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Does any other current LUL rolling stock fit the Bakerloo apart from the 1972 stock?
 

Nym

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Does any other current LUL rolling stock fit the Bakerloo apart from the 1972 stock?
1992TS is the right length cars, but the movements between cars would need to be assessed, the jumper and pneumatic drops from the drawbar are quite different to how the 1972TS is layed out.
 

Vespa

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It would have been better if all tube trains and lines are standardised to allow cross line use, this would cost a lot of money, too much money.

A lot of this is as a consequence of different underground companies building their own lines and trains to their own specifications before they were all merged into one London Underground transport system, we're left with a rough compromise due to all this legacy issue.
 

Journeyman

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1992TS is the right length cars, but the movements between cars would need to be assessed, the jumper and pneumatic drops from the drawbar are quite different to how the 1972TS is layed out.
I'd imagine there would be potential issues with positive shoegear as well. On part of the Central Line the positive rail is in a higher than normal position due to the contour of the tunnel walls, and only suitable stock can operate on it. Would this cause issues on other lines? Possibly.
 

rebmcr

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It would have been better if all tube trains and lines are standardised to allow cross line use, this would cost a lot of money, too much money.

A lot of this is as a consequence of different underground companies building their own lines and trains to their own specifications before they were all merged into one London Underground transport system, we're left with a rough compromise due to all this legacy issue.
The 2024 Tube Stock (neé New Tube for London), with its shorter carriages and designed to be suitable for the Bakerloo's restrictive gauge, might well end up founding that standard.

Just like the 1938 Tube Stock founded what has been the standard carriage & door layout up until now.
 

Scotrail12

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The Bakerloo was an utter mess when I was there last week - tired, ghastly stations (Charing Cross in particular) and ageing trains (sometimes the doors open before the train has fully stopped, lights flicker on and off, the PA is inaudible and the interior looks ancient)I think it honestly should be first in the queue to get new trains because it just isn't good enough any more. It's also unpleasant to use during summer weather.

What's with the plans to replace the Jubilee fleet? 96TS are working fine just now.
 

Dstock7080

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I'd imagine there would be potential issues with positive shoegear as well. On part of the Central Line the positive rail is in a higher than normal position due to the contour of the tunnel walls, and only suitable stock can operate on it. Would this cause issues on other lines? Possibly.
The positive conductor is at the normal level outside the restrictive tunnel section, so 1992 Stock can work in other areas without issue.

What's with the plans to replace the Jubilee fleet? 96TS are working fine just now.
There has been a suggestion that to increase the Northern Line fleet, some 6-car ‘96 Stock are transferred to work alongside the similar (not exact) ‘95 Stock. With a complete new fleet for the Jubilee Line.
 
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Snow1964

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Of course there is the possibility of a political fudge.

The Piccadilly line fleet has 3 train fleet sizes (enough for straight replacement of a 24 trains per hour service, a 27tph which is current plan, and a 30tph version). The new trains have higher capacity so even the 24tph option increases capacity.

It would be quite easy to divert the final few trains into the start of a Bakerloo line order, and then the number of trains for Bakerloo that would need to be added is less. I see this as a likely scenario if Bakerloo stock is struggling to keep going.

From a cost perspective it might also allow some of the Piccadilly line signalling replacement/enhancement to be deferred few years if 24tph continues for now which helps the 72 stock replacement case whlist Capital funding is tight.

It would be simple to return to the frequency enhancement a few years later, if economy picks up sufficiently. Effectively under this scenario the enhancement Piccadilly line trains would follow the Bakerloo fleet.

I suspect the Lewisham extension will be moved to back burner for a few years, so is not going to be relevant to replacing 1972 stock. Similarly replacing the 1990s tube fleets is also going to be parked for few years until late 2020s simply due to lack of capital funding whilst Government works out how to pay for Covid.

This is how I see it happening, this is not an actual revised policy.
 
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Nym

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NTfL (DTUP) new stock may have issues fitting into London Road Depot, seen as the 1972TS already needs to use a lot of *ahem* "Grandfather Rights" to address safe working. If new stock could even carry this forwards, any increase in length which is likely, will result in London Road Depot being essentially unusable. If it can't be (and it shouldn't be able to be) carried forwards, you'll only fit 6 roads in London Road Depot, loose all the (admittidly rarely used) pit roads, and need to extend the headshunt.

So something will need doing to fit these new trains regardless. There's a distinct lack of accessible depot space on that line, and has been ever since CBTC cut off access to Neasden.
 

birchesgreen

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I don't think the Bakerloo Line will be getting new trains until the mid-2030s. The 72 stock is nearly as old as me, i'm expecting to retire before it does!
 

Journeyman

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I don't think the Bakerloo Line will be getting new trains until the mid-2030s. The 72 stock is nearly as old as me, i'm expecting to retire before it does!
The 72 Stock is on the verge of outlasting the A and 38 Stocks, and in the process becoming the oldest Underground trains in service ever (excluding the ones sent to the Isle of Wight).
 

Nym

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If they make it beyond 2037 then there'll be a good chance of 100 year old components out in the wild.
(Door engines are shared spares for 38, 59, 62, 67 and 72 tube stock)
 

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