1972 tube stock replacement

[TRAX]

A stock just cleared 51 years in service so they'll easily beat that. When did 1938 stock start and finish? Still a fair way to go to catch up with the New York R32 cars which ran from 1964 to 2020.

They also have to beat the Paris MP 59 still in service on line 11, that have been running since 1966 and still have a few more years ahead of them.

 

[DelW]

1938 Stock lasted continuously from June 1938 to November 1985, with a few units then reinstated in September 1986, lasting until May 1988. So...just short of fifty years, but with a brief gap.

Wow, was their final withdrawal really over thirty years ago ! I can well remember diverting a few cross-London trips onto the Bakerloo during the reinstatement period, to try to get another "last ride" on the 1938s.

Of course, I had no inkling then that my actual "last ride" on them would be in October 2020, though obviously not underground (not even Ryde tunnel, as the line between Esplanade and St John's was closed).

 

[Dstock7080]

Wow, was their final withdrawal really over thirty years ago ! I can well remember diverting a few cross-London trips onto the Bakerloo during the reinstatement period, to try to get another "last ride" on the 1938s.

the six reinstated '38s were on the Northern Line

 

[DelW]

the six reinstated '38s were on the Northern Line

Oh, OK - my Bakerloo trips must have been before they were first withdrawn then. I thought they'd had a reinstatement on the Bakerloo late on.

I still (well, pre-Covid anyway) chose the Bakerloo occasionally, just for the nostalgia of sitting in the remaining transverse seats.

 

[Mikey C]

Almost certain in that case that the 72 stock will beat both of them. To beat New York's R32s, they'll need to last in service until 2029, which is certainly a possibility with the current state of TFL's finances.

Considering the 72 stock was only built as a stop gap to expedite withdrawal of 38 stock trains ahead of a then-planned new fleet on the Northern line (which eventually arrived in the form of the 95 stock), the 72 stock has done exceptionally well. No doubt however the 72 Mark II stock's longevity is in part down to the large availability of spare parts, from the withdrawal of the majority of the 72 Mark Is in the late 1990s, and the withdrawal of the 67 stock 10 years ago. The recent departure of the Asset Inspection Train for scrap will also have provided more parts assuming it was stripped for spares first, and there's also the possibility of the Aldwych unit providing spares in the coming years should proposals to get rid of it go ahead.

Yes, it's a slight curio that the 72 Mk1 have lasted so long when its sister stock went a long time ago

It was an interesting decision to make the 2009 stock bespoke for the Victoria Line, and thus can only run on that line. Better for Victoria Line passengers as it makes them roomier inside, but it meant that there was no way of continuing production to replace the Bakerloo Line 72s as well.

 

[100andthirty]

Yes, it's a slight curio that the 72 Mk1 have lasted so long when its sister stock went a long time ago

It was an interesting decision to make the 2009 stock bespoke for the Victoria Line, and thus can only run on that line. Better for Victoria Line passengers as it makes them roomier inside, but it meant that there was no way of continuing production to replace the Bakerloo Line 72s as well.

The hypothetical modifications to make a 2009 tube stock suitable for the Bakerloo line would have been mainly to the carbody to accommodate the slightly smaller tunnel, changes to the underframe to accommodate a larger bogie rotation and probably changes to inter-car jumpers. These modifications would be quite usual in a new build.

But..........there was never any intention to perpetuate that design. The original PPP timescale was for Bakerloo replacement in about 2019. The question of the nature of that stock hadn't cropped up as this would have been covered in the discussions for the second period of the PPP. Metronet went bankrupt before those discussions really started. By the time this happened, the next generation tube stock which became the New Tube for London or Deep Tube stock was firmly on the agenda.

 

[Lewlew]

I still (well, pre-Covid anyway) chose the Bakerloo occasionally, just for the nostalgia of sitting in the remaining transverse seats.

The Met line S Stock has transverse seats

 

[317 forever]

I don't think the Bakerloo Line will be getting new trains until the mid-2030s. The 72 stock is nearly as old as me, i'm expecting to retire before it does!

My first Underground ride following my 60th birthday last year was a 72 on the Bakerloo Line. I remembered my first ride on such a train being just before Christmas 1973. Little did I imagine at 13 riding the same stock aged 60.

 

[Nym]

Was the first fleet I worked on.
Got to wonder what's going to retire first...

 

[Snow1964]

Intended to post this in Piccadilly line (new Inspiro) trains thread, but for reasons I can’t fathom, it is locked

Latest TfL Board Programmes and Investment committee papers

page 48 of pack

The 2020/21 emergency budget decision was to defer the start of third party spend where possible by six months. Due to
this, and the delay to start infrastructure enabling works, the new trains are now expected to begin entering revenue service from spring 2025, as mentioned in the public announcement in March 2021.

So first new trains now delayed to Spring 2025

https://board.tfl.gov.uk/documents/g621/Public%20reports%20pack%20Wednesday%2015-Dec-2021%2010.00%20Programmes%20and%20Investment%20Committee.pdf?T=10

 

[rebmcr]

Intended to post this in Piccadilly line (new Inspiro) trains thread, but for reasons I can’t fathom, it is locked

Hit "Report" on any post in that thread and explain to the moderators why it should be unlocked.

(This is the approved method per the forum rules, not a misuse of the Report function).

 

[Snow1964]

Today the mayor has issued a press release, although it is principally about long term funding with Government, it includes something I have never seen publicly before, that options are held with Siemens for Bakerloo and Central line train replacement

Following TfL’s order for 94 new Piccadilly Line trains, Siemens is building a manufacturing facility at Goole in Yorkshire, representing an investment of £200m into the area, creating 700 direct jobs and 1,700 indirect jobs once the factory is in operation. Half of the new Piccadilly line trains will be assembled there in the coming years. TfL also has options built into its contract with Siemens to build new Bakerloo and Central line trains in the future, so if TfL has sufficient funding to activate these options that could provide ongoing work for this important Yorkshire manufacturing base and its supply chain.

Mayor warns of threat to jobs if Government fails to properly fund TfL

Sadiq Khan warns of threat to thousands of jobs across the country if the Government fails to properly fund TfL

www.london.gov.uk

 

[Goldfish62]

I understand these trains are now to go first. Is this true? see https://www.mylondon.news/news/zone-1-news/london-underground-bakerloo-line-new-21153107.



I thought the 1973 tube stock on the Piccadilly line was going first.

The TfL paper doesn't state what you've interpreted it to mean.

The Bakerloo replacements would be ordered in 2023-24, not placed in service. The Piccadilly replacements were ordered some time ago and are in the early stages of manufacture.

 

[Mikey C]

Today the mayor has issued a press release, although it is principally about long term funding with Government, it includes something I have never seen publicly before, that options are held with Siemens for Bakerloo and Central line train replacement

Mayor warns of threat to jobs if Government fails to properly fund TfL

Sadiq Khan warns of threat to thousands of jobs across the country if the Government fails to properly fund TfL

www.london.gov.uk

Not a surprise that TfL have options, this isn't a 2009 stock situation where an order was placed for trains for one line only, TfL and Siemens are investing in a generation of trains for several lines.

The Goole plant will ensure that at some point follow on orders will be made. TfL/Sadiq are being very clever in emphasising the jobs around the country aspect, especially as the majority are away from the Southeast.

 

[DanNCL]

I wouldn't be surprised to see Central Government release funding for new Bakerloo line trains from Siemens, simply to avoid the political embarrasment of the Goole plant closing just a few years after opening.

The Central line on the other hand will likely be made to wait. If I recall correctly the 2024 stock design required a number of additional design modifications to run on the Central line, compared to what was needed for the Piccadilly and the Bakerloo.

 

[thedbdiboy]

It would have been better if all tube trains and lines are standardised to allow cross line use, this would cost a lot of money, too much money.

A lot of this is as a consequence of different underground companies building their own lines and trains to their own specifications before they were all merged into one London Underground transport system, we're left with a rough compromise due to all this legacy issue.

Reading this thread, it seems amazing that the 1938 tube stock worked the Northern, Piccadilly, Bakerloo (including Stanmore branch), East London and Moorgate - Finsbury Park lines in their heyday

 

[Mikey C]

Reading this thread, it seems amazing that the 1938 tube stock worked the Northern, Piccadilly, Bakerloo (including Stanmore branch), East London and Moorgate - Finsbury Park lines in their heyday

The 72 stock worked 3 lines, Northern, Jubilee and Bakerloo and would have worked on the Victoria Line too if that hadn't been equipped with ATO

 

[Snow1964]

The 72 stock worked 3 lines, Northern, Jubilee and Bakerloo and would have worked on the Victoria Line too if that hadn't been equipped with ATO

I think a few 72 stock cars were moved to the Victoria about the time of the refurbishment (early 1990s) to enhance the fleet size. They were formed in middle as didn’t have ATO equipped cabs

 

[100andthirty]

The Marston Vale units certainly sound a bit like Tube trains with the compressors going permanently - classic "DC traction motor sound" is actually mostly from straight-cut gearing.

I think a few 72 stock cars were moved to the Victoria about the time of the refurbishment (early 1990s) to enhance the fleet size. They were formed in middle as didn’t have ATO equipped cabs

This happened in the mid/late 1980s.

 

[londontransit]

Reading this thread, it seems amazing that the 1938 tube stock worked the Northern, Piccadilly, Bakerloo (including Stanmore branch), East London and Moorgate - Finsbury Park lines in their heyday

At the risk of being ridiculed the 1938 stock also worked the Victoria Line (or what had been built of it) in regards to testing various aspects of the newly built tunnels including noise, ventilation and track riding.

 

[bluegoblin7]

‘38 stock has, of course, operated on all LUL lines, with the exception of the Waterloo & City line - the erstwhile Tunnel Cleaning and Weed Killing Trains both being formed of ‘38 stock. There is also the preserved set looked after by the London Transport Museum.

I’m fairly certain that the only part of the (accessible) network that hasn’t seen a ‘38 stock at some point is the Battersea Power Station extension.

 

[DanNCL]

‘38 stock has, of course, operated on all LUL lines, with the exception of the Waterloo & City line - the erstwhile Tunnel Cleaning and Weed Killing Trains both being formed of ‘38 stock. There is also the preserved set looked after by the London Transport Museum.

I’m fairly certain that the only part of the (accessible) network that hasn’t seen a ‘38 stock at some point is the Battersea Power Station extension.

The only other part of the accessible LU network I can think off that possibly hasn't been visited by 38 stock is Heathrow Terminal 5. Even the JLE to Stratford has seen the preserved set visit.

Are there any parts of the deep level network (apart from the Waterloo & City, Terminal 5 at Heathrow, JLE and Battersea) that haven't been visited by 67/72 stock? The Northern, Bakerloo, Jubilee and Victoria have all seen the stock in service, and the Piccadilly and Central have both seen the stock on moves to/from Northfields and Hainault.

 

[Dstock7080]

The only other part of the accessible LU network I can think off that possibly hasn't been visited by 38 stock is Heathrow Terminal 5.

1938 Stock has been to Terminal 5

 

[DanNCL]

1938 Stock has been to Terminal 5

Didn’t know that, most interesting!

 

[Egg Centric]

‘38 stock has, of course, operated on all LUL lines, with the exception of the Waterloo & City line - the erstwhile Tunnel Cleaning and Weed Killing Trains both being formed of ‘38 stock. There is also the preserved set looked after by the London Transport Museum.

I’m fairly certain that the only part of the (accessible) network that hasn’t seen a ‘38 stock at some point is the Battersea Power Station extension.

Could the museum set be operated there in future or do newer signalling systems preclude it?

 

[Nym]

You can run anything anywhere it can access under an ITMP (Incompatible Train Movement Plan) but I doubt that it will...

 

[Central]

The 72 stock worked 3 lines, Northern, Jubilee and Bakerloo and would have worked on the Victoria Line too if that hadn't been equipped with ATO

When stage 1 of The Jubilee Line was being built,the original plan was to use an updated version of the Victoria Line system.A train of 72Mk2TS was test run on the Victoria Line(overnight)for a few weeks as the stock was built with ATO wiring.

 

[Nym]

When stage 1 of The Jubilee Line was being built,the original plan was to use an updated version of the Victoria Line system.A train of 72Mk2TS was test run on the Victoria Line(overnight)for a few weeks as the stock was built with ATO wiring.

72TS Mk.1 (Ex. Northern Line) has also been used as part of the formation of 1967TS Mk.2 units.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I've made a couple of fairly hefty distance journeys on the bakerloo recently and whilst they are still nice to ride in I cannot see the existing stock lasting the length of time that TFL want it to.

Maybe if we get a change of prime minister before the next election there first thing will be decided that they have finished falling out with TFL and are releasing a slice of government cash to to refurbish and resignal the bakerloo and equip it with 24 stock

 

[Snow1964]

I've made a couple of fairly hefty distance journeys on the bakerloo recently and whilst they are still nice to ride in I cannot see the existing stock lasting the length of time that TFL want it to.

Maybe if we get a change of prime minister before the next election there first thing will be decided that they have finished falling out with TFL and are releasing a slice of government cash to to refurbish and resignal the bakerloo and equip it with 24 stock

There is an economic limit to how much money can sensibly be thrown at patching the 1972 stock up, and like many I suspect an interim political fudge will come out of it.

Basically as currently authorised, there is new Piccadilly line trains (straight replacement for existing 87.5 trains) plus few more to increase the frequency from 24tph to 27tph. However the new signalling to allow 27 per hour isn’t fully funded. There are also unexercised options for more trains.

What I think will happen (especially as Bakerloo extension to Lewisham is unlikely until 2030s, if it ever happens) is that the extra Piccadilly trains will be diverted to Bakerloo, with a smaller Bakerloo build to complete conversion from 1972 stock.

The proposed 2024 stock versions for Bakerloo are virtually identical to those on Piccadilly, unlike the Central line versions which would be 11 section trains with different car lengths. So it would be easy to switch trains between Piccadilly and Bakerloo at quite a late stage.

Once political fighting has finished I suspect extra trains for Piccadilly will then be ordered to follow a Bakerloo line batch.

In my mind there is some commitment to more trains that isn’t being made public, because otherwise Siemens wouldn’t be continuing to build the Goole factory, it could have saved money and built whole authorised batch in Vienna.