• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

1980s & Early 1990s Sleeper Formations

Status
Not open for further replies.

37 418

Member
Joined
27 Jan 2010
Messages
201
Location
Dingwall, Scotland
Hi All,

Does anyone know what type of seated coaches and buffet cars were used on Anglo-Scottish sleeper services in the late 80s early 90s when in Intercity Swallow livery?

Thanks in advance :)
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Old Timer

Established Member
Joined
24 Aug 2009
Messages
3,703
Location
On a plane somewhere at 35,000
Until Mid/Late 1980
Mk 1 TSO/FO/BFK
I do not recall buffet cars being on Sleepers as there were sleeper pantry cars (SLPS ?) included in the formation, and "food" was restricted to coffee/tea and biscuits in the morning before arrival

From late 1980
Mk 2D/E/F

Any buffets included I would expect to have been Mk1 (probably RMB) with Commonwealth/B4 bogies.
 

Helvellyn

Established Member
Joined
28 Aug 2009
Messages
1,995
The Mk 2f RLOs (Sleep Lounge cars) were introduced from the late 1980s. They were intended to act as reception coaches as well as being available for the service of snacks and light refreshments in the evening and breakfast in the morning. Bars were added to the latter converted vehicles. All 9 are still in use with ScotRail, though some of the loose lounge style seating has been replaced by sofas.

The RLOs were used on the Night Caledonian (Glasgow-Euston), Night Scotsman (Edinburgh-Euston), Night Aberdonian (Aberdeen-Euston) and Royal Highlander (Inverness-Euston).

There were plans to convert more RLOs, but this was shelved in favour of more Mk 2F RFBs (Buffet First Open) that could be used at both day and night. Some of these were used on the Glasgow/Edinburgh-Plymouth Sleeper as well as the Night Riveria. These were later used exclusively by the CrossCountry sub-sector of InterCity on daytime services. Catering on the Night Riveria and CrossCountry sleeper was then provided by converted Mk 2E FOs fitted with a pantry to offer a basic catering service. After the withdrawal of the CrossCountry sleeper the FO(T)s from this were switched to use on the Night West Highlander (Fort William-Euston). I believe ScotRail now use the 9th RLO on this service between Fort William and Edinburgh, with a Mk 2F RFB as a spare vehicle for the RLO fleet.

First Great Western now use Mk 3A RFMs on the Night Riveria as a lounge coach.

Seated accommodation on the West Coast and Great Western sleepers in the 1980s used a mix of Mk 2E/F TSOs and BSOs, many fitted with a night lighting, whereby the main lights were switched off and low level lighting provided illumination. These were later replaced by Mk 2D TSOs converted from redundant Mk 2D TSOs and fitted with IC80 seating (as developed for use in the APT). These coaches offered a slightly greater seat pitch than normal TSOs as the original mid-saloon partition was retained at conversion.

For a while in the 1980s redundant Mk 2F FOs were alos used to provide seated accommodation. These were converted to SOs in 1984/85 and some were used for Nightrider services - overnight all seated accommodation services. I recall in late 1988 travelling down to Euston on a sleeper service but in an SO, after the Nightrider services had finished.

In 1990 typical West Coast formations were: -

4 sets - SLE-SLEP-RLO-SLE-SLEP-SLE-SLE-SLEP
5 sets - SLE-SLEP-RLO-SLE-SLEP-SLE-SLE-SLEP-SLE-SLEP

I think the 8-coach sets were used to Glasgow/Edinburgh and the 10-coach sets to Aberdeeb/Inverness. Given that all these sets also contained seating coaches and Motorail vans the Sleepers could be lengthy services. I think the Glasgow service used to have four coaches, plus a SLE-SLEP portion that was attached/detached at Carlisle for Euston. Add in the Fort William service and the CrossCountry one, and that meant that on the Northern section of the West Coast mainline you used to have six Up and six Down Sleeper services. There was also a lot of parcels and freight traffic to be seen overnight.
 

37 418

Member
Joined
27 Jan 2010
Messages
201
Location
Dingwall, Scotland
Wow, thanks very much for that, I really do appreciate the trouble you have gone to! One thing, am I correct in saying there was a mk1 BG in a sleeper formation back then?
 

Helvellyn

Established Member
Joined
28 Aug 2009
Messages
1,995
Wow, thanks very much for that, I really do appreciate the trouble you have gone to! One thing, am I correct in saying there was a mk1 BG in a sleeper formation back then?
You are, I'd forgot about them lol. They moved away from using the BSOs, and it tended to be the 110 mph NHAs that were used, these having being displaced from the daytime West Coast services by the arrival of the Mk 3B DVTs.

Class 37 hauled Sleeper in 1993

When InterCity replaced the high ETH equipped 47/6s (47671-677) on the Night Aberdonian and Royal Highlander with pairs of Class 37s you also had a converted Mk 1 BG in use as a generator coach to provide the ETH for the stock, as the Class 37/0s and 37/5s used by InterCity were non-ETH fitted.

37510stone.jpg

http://www.toton-rail.co.uk/fullsize/37510stone.jpg
 

williamn

Member
Joined
22 May 2008
Messages
1,123
When was the crosscountry service stopped?

Also, I have always wondered what the Mark 1 sleeping cars were like, anyone have any pics?

I guess that when the Mk3 ones are life expired that will be the end of sleeper services. :(
 

MCR247

Established Member
Joined
7 Nov 2008
Messages
9,566
When was the crosscountry service stopped?

Also, I have always wondered what the Mark 1 sleeping cars were like, anyone have any pics?

I guess that when the Mk3 ones are life expired that will be the end of sleeper services. :(

Hopefully an open access operator might come along :)
 

sprinterguy

Established Member
Joined
4 Mar 2010
Messages
11,048
Location
Macclesfield
Yeah the Ethels were used on the Fort William sleepers when mark 3 sleeping carriages were introduced on the route in the early eighties. At the time a number of the 37s on the West Highland were steam heat, so could not provide power to the carriages, so the Ethel would be used to provide the power. I've seen some pictures of this. Of course once the ETS class 37/4s were introduced in 1986, the Ethels were no longer used.
 

Helvellyn

Established Member
Joined
28 Aug 2009
Messages
1,995
I guess that when the Mk3 ones are life expired that will be the end of sleeper services. :(

I think this will depend on who is in power at Holyrood at the time the Mk 3 Sleepers start to be considered life expired. I wouldn't be surprised to see some Scottish Government funding to produce a small fleet of sleeping cars, plus day coaches and lounge coaches to maintain the Scottish sleeper services.

The Night Riveria, however, might be a different matter. Justifying new build coaches could prove difficult for such a niche service. Whilst it survived attempts to kill it off in the Greater Western franchise, any retention of it in the long term would require the DfT to look at approving an add-on order to any future ScotRail replacement order.


Also, I have always wondered what the Mark 1 sleeping cars were like, anyone have any pics?

Mark 1 SLC - Compartment side
Mark 1 SLC - Corridor side

Three types of Mark 1 Sleeping Car were built. All had a pantry, two toilets and eleven compartments.

  • The SLF was all First Class, with 11 individual berths.
  • The SLC had 5 First Class compartments, with 5 individual berths, and 6 Second Class compartments, with 2 berths per compartment.
  • The SLSTP was all Second Class, with 22 berths (2 per compartment).
Some of the SLSTP vehicles were later modified by Wolverton Works to have the top bunk hinged, so it could be folded away out of use to allow the compartment to be used as a First Class one, or as a Second Class one with both bunks deployed. These vehicles were classified as SLEP. The Mark 3A Sleeping Cars would be subsequently be all built with these folding top bunks to maximise the flexibility of compartment use.
 
Last edited:

williamn

Member
Joined
22 May 2008
Messages
1,123
Can't get those fotopic links to work but thanks for all the info. Let's hope that some way can be found to keep sleeper services going once the Mk3's are no longer viable...
 

Helvellyn

Established Member
Joined
28 Aug 2009
Messages
1,995
Can't get those fotopic links to work but thanks for all the info.
Try the links now, they should work.

I believe that after the NightStar plan was abandoned ScotRail looked at whether the redundant Sleeper, Lounge and Day coaches could be taken on for use on the Sleeper services. However, I think cost ruled this out. The vehicles were also power hungry! This thread has more information.
 

Moog_1984

Member
Joined
5 Mar 2010
Messages
171
Seconded! Just one more question: do you know if the Ethels were ever used with the Fort William sleepers?



yeah, as sprinter says, the ETHELS were used I think late 82 or 83, to the successful intro' of the 37/4s in 85.

The train was usually 350 tonnes net including the ETHEL ( see railway locomotive performance stats web site for details, just google for it, should still be up there). The original buffet was a mark II airbraked, with the sleeper Mrk 3s being the only air conditioned stock for the first few years and until after 37/4 introduction. Scotrail had started "hoarding" dual heat stock it coudl get it's hands on after the green light for the 37-4 project, and the allocation of 47/6s. IIRC the main two fort bill daytime trains also went air-braked, dual heat in 1983.

ETHELs made the formation sound like a class 50 at the front! dubbing note on top of the 37 thrash. We always expected it to "produce" non boilered 37s, but the Ft Bill 37 was required to work a Mallaig Mrk 1 vac-steam during the day.

ETHEL did however drop on 37 133 onto a 1650 Ft Bill, to replace a failed ETHEL coming down , with the 37s "bendy bogies" on test at ED at the time.

Also 37125, and a "mark zero" NB split box dual brake which I can't remember the # of, worked the sleeper on non avail of boilered at ED or ML. Probably a few more.

On rail tours and other utilisation of ETHEL 1,2, or 3 it was usually a bloody ED boilered 37 anayway. ETHEL ran on a regular summer-sunday Edinburgh Oban ADDEX with air-con load five or six or the like ( 1984?)

The Ft bill sleeper had a mixed history of splitting-portions due to vandalism in the Milton-Maryhill area: in other words they took the sleeper southbound portion off at Dumbarton or somewhere else. In the last days of Mrk 1s a boilered class 40 actually worked several times out of dumbarton to motherwell. Biggest drop I ever "refused" ...regret to this day!
 

rail-britain

Established Member
Joined
12 Aug 2007
Messages
4,102
Does anyone know what a typical formation would be in the Intercity swallow period?
Apologies for the delay, I'm only on here once a fortnight now

I worked on these between 1991 and 1994

North of Edinburgh the loco was "rostered" for a Class 47/6, on Aberdeen and Inverness
The Fort William was a Class 37/4
All trains went to Edinburgh, with the exception of the Glasgow
South of Edinburgh the normal loco was a Class 87, but was occasionally a Class 90
The Glasgow - Plymouth was normally a Class 86/2 or 86/4 (simply a normal day loco swap)

Up to 1992 there were a variety of rakes, all had seats
If you need details of these, let me know
However, there was a core formation for the Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen, and Inverness sleeper
As a result the Aberdeen was the "swap" for maintenance on a Monday morning and left Aberdeen shortly after arrival, to swap for the Edinburgh set, arriving back about 16:00 (although often later than this!)
Why this wasn't done at Wembley is beyond me, I suspect the shunters weren't trusted to get the sets correct, although they did manage to swap the RLO between sets without any problems (as there was a spare kept at Wembley)
NHA-SLE-SLEP-SLE-RLO-SLE-SLEP-SLE-SLEP
Added to this were the seats, typically a TSO and BSO
There was then the motorail, varying between 2 and 4 coaches, depending on destination and booking levels

Intercity decided to withdraw seats on all but the Glasgow service
This allowed them to utilise the pair of Class 37s and a generator van (on the Aberdeen and Inverness sleepers, for operational reasons), removing the Class 47/6 (which had become unreliable and thus releasing these for charter duties, in preparation for the sale of the ICCU the following year)
Stagecoach Holdings (as it was then) put in a "last minute" offer to retain the seats on the Aberdeen, and this was completed with just days to spare!

The same sleeper formation was retained, but the Inverness and Edinburgh were extended by between 1 and 3 sleepers (depending on day and demand)

The Glasgow - Plymouth and Motorail was withdrawn the following year, the Fort William was also planned for withdrawal but was retained due to campaigns and political reasons
At the same time, the Inverness and Fort William were merged during the winter timetable (which presented time keeping problems!)
This presented problems on the Fort William sleeper, during the winter timetable, as this now took the train below five coaches (required for braking), the solution was to increase the number of sleepers
Eventually, sense prevailed and the train was permitted to operate with 4 coaches

Due to high level of complaints over time keeping, reliability, and cold trains, the reign of pairs (or sometimes on the Aberdeen a single 37, or even a Class 47/4) of Class 37 with generator van came to an abrupt end, with the return of the Class 47/6
However it was short lived, as another cost cutting decision was made the next year to merge the Scottish sleepers, basically to what we have today
 

Moog_1984

Member
Joined
5 Mar 2010
Messages
171
Apologies for the delay, I'm only on here once a fortnight now

I worked on these between 1991 and 1994





This allowed them to utilise the pair of Class 37s and a generator van (on the Aberdeen and Inverness sleepers, for operational reasons), removing the Class 47/6 (which had become unreliable and thus releasing these for charter duties, in preparation for the sale of the ICCU the following year)
Stagecoach Holdings (as it was then) put in a "last minute" offer to retain the seats on the Aberdeen, and this was completed with just days to spare!



Due to high level of complaints over time keeping, reliability, and cold trains, the reign of pairs of Class 37 with generator van came to an abrupt end, with the return of the Class 47/6
However it was short lived, as another cost cutting decision was made the next year to merge the Scottish sleepers, basically to what we have today

These generator vans weren't ETHELs though? What were they? The only generator vans I knew of wese the mrk2 on the royal train, the ill fated night-eurostar and the ones used on Belfast-Dublin trains. (MRk II probably like the royal train one)
 

EltonRoad

Member
Joined
2 Jun 2009
Messages
1,029
Location
Kendal
I was watching a DVD of a cab ride over the West Highland Line, which showed the Sleeper from about 1992. You could see it had 3 Mk 3 sleepers, 1 Mk 2 lounge car and 4 Motorail coaches.

I use the Highland Sleeper quite a lot, and have often wondered why they don't split it at Carstairs. Wouldn't that chop about 60-90 mins off the Fort William journey? An 8.30 arrival might be more attractive for some. And commuters could use it on local journeys.

Just a thought. If they can do it for the Lowland Sleeper, why not the Highland?

(Off topic slightly, sorry!)
 

Helvellyn

Established Member
Joined
28 Aug 2009
Messages
1,995
These generator vans weren't ETHELs though? What were they? The only generator vans I knew of wese the mrk2 on the royal train, the ill fated night-eurostar and the ones used on Belfast-Dublin trains. (MRk II probably like the royal train one)
3 Mark 1 BGs were converted to generator cars and numbered 6311-6313.

6310 was the HST genertor van, also conerted from a Mark 1 BG and previously numbered in the departmental number series.
 

Moog_1984

Member
Joined
5 Mar 2010
Messages
171
I was watching a DVD of a cab ride over the West Highland Line, which showed the Sleeper from about 1992. You could see it had 3 Mk 3 sleepers, 1 Mk 2 lounge car and 4 Motorail coaches.

I use the Highland Sleeper quite a lot, and have often wondered why they don't split it at Carstairs. Wouldn't that chop about 60-90 mins off the Fort William journey? An 8.30 arrival might be more attractive for some. And commuters could use it on local journeys.

Just a thought. If they can do it for the Lowland Sleeper, why not the Highland?

(Off topic slightly, sorry!)

yeah but it's cost saving to do all the diesel swaps and first crew rosterings from one point. Another crapness of private monopolies, making it slower than it was in 1980!
 

theblackwatch

Established Member
Joined
15 Feb 2006
Messages
10,714
yeah but it's cost saving to do all the diesel swaps and first crew rosterings from one point. Another crapness of private monopolies, making it slower than it was in 1980!

I don't think the splitting of sleepers at Edinburgh can be blamed on the private companies, given that in the latter days of British Rail, they did exactly the same then.
 

EltonRoad

Member
Joined
2 Jun 2009
Messages
1,029
Location
Kendal
yeah but it's cost saving to do all the diesel swaps and first crew rosterings from one point. Another crapness of private monopolies, making it slower than it was in 1980!

I meant why can't they split the train into 3 at Carstairs.

This would save a time-consuming (and sleep-disturbing) reversal for all 3 portions. The other 2 portions could carry on north via Cumbernauld.

It would require the FW day coaches to lay over at Carstairs for a few hours, as well as 3 Class 67s. Don't know if there's enough siding space there.
 
Last edited:

dk1

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Oct 2009
Messages
15,827
Location
East Anglia
When was the crosscountry service stopped? :(

Well i used it around 1995 from Newton Abbot to Glasgow after a day on the ale around Torbay. This continued well into the journey. I just remember seeing Crewe & then its a blank. Dont think this great service continued much longer after that time.
 

Moog_1984

Member
Joined
5 Mar 2010
Messages
171
I meant why can't they split the train into 3 at Carstairs.

This would save a time-consuming (and sleep-disturbing) reversal for all 3 portions. The other 2 portions could carry on north via Cumbernauld.

It would require the FW day coaches to lay over at Carstairs for a few hours, as well as 3 Class 67s. Don't know if there's enough siding space there.

Carstairs has lot's of space around it with upto four lines plus the triangle for shunts if you have to! ( and this has happened!) All sorts of shunts, overtakes and portions used to happen there: Perth motorail, edinburgh portions....the odd coach or loco failure.

But, the cost in track access charges and extra crew hours to get down to carstairs negate it being sensible.

Mind you the WHL sleeper has never been very "sensible" :p...
 

Peter Mugridge

Veteran Member
Joined
8 Apr 2010
Messages
14,754
Location
Epsom
I guess that when the Mk3 ones are life expired that will be the end of sleeper services. :(


As one who uses the Sleeper fairly regulary, I would hope not. I am sure there is a market for an expansion of overnight services, but it is probably not encouraged by the DfT in order to protect TOC revenues?

For example, the official reason for not having a Sleeper to Liverpool / Manchester these days is that the daytime service is so fast. But look at the time you can get acrosss London and catch a train to Manchester, say. What time do you have to get up?! And you're still not going to get there first thing really are you? And certainly not in a rested condition. But look at how much the fare for getting to Manchester early like that is - it's a lot more than it would cost on a Sleeper... ;)

A couple of years ago i drew up a plan for a future Sleeper stock which was basically a 5 car EDMU consisting of one vehicle with a diesel engine plus an OHL pick up and all the associated equipment at the front, followed by the luggage compartment and the seating accomodation plus bar with four vehicles of Sleeper accomodation.

By making the units articulated with slightly shorter bodies I could get quite a good capacity out of each vehicle by being able to move the doors around rather a bit than be constrained by having to have a pair at each end of each vehicle.

I made the Sleeper compartments pretty much the same as on the Mk3s ( the problem with the NightStar was that it was hugely over-specified ), but with the dividing door between pairs of compartments sliding into the wall rather than swinging open, and the same for the compartment doors. Windows slightly bigger and with improved blinds and light proofing.

The shorter bodies mean that four of these 5 car units would be roughly the same length as a full 16 car + locomotive ScR Sleeper and could therefore operate the same routes. But of course, by being MUs the coupling / uncoupling of portions would be less labour intensive and the shunting required would be much reduced.

In turn, this makes portion working much easier physically and at lower cost - making it easier to run a comprehensive network of overnight services once again ( OK, OK, I know - engineering work...!! ).

I still have the drawings I did somewhere; I will see if I can find them...


As an aside, are there still large numbers of Mk3 Sleepers stored at places like Long Marston or were they all scrapped?
 

jopsuk

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2008
Messages
12,771
every cabin had an en-suite. Six out of the ten in each carriage had a shower. That's right- ten cabins. A Mark 3 SLE has 13, a SLEP 12.

Massively over-built to meet over-zealous fire protection regulations for the chunnel (the same regulations being revised at the moment to allow existing European HS stock through). Away from wires a sixteen carriage train was going to require two class 37s with a generator van marshalled between them. A mark 3 SLE/SLEP is about 43 tonnes, a Nightstar sleeper coach 53 tonnes.

The Canadians have the ones that were actually built, but they weren't built for Canadian winters. This page has details
 

rail-britain

Established Member
Joined
12 Aug 2007
Messages
4,102
As one who uses the Sleeper fairly regulary, I would hope not. I am sure there is a market for an expansion of overnight services, but it is probably not encouraged by the DfT in order to protect TOC revenues?

As an aside, are there still large numbers of Mk3 Sleepers stored at places like Long Marston or were they all scrapped?
The future of the sleepers is very uncertain, once the Mark 3a sleepers are defined as "life expired"
Ironically, the 04:25 Glasgow Central - Euston is ideal for a business day trip to London City, having used it a few times now, however clearly many people see that as just too long a day
Equally, air travel is more attractive for such business day trips

The sleepers have to operate "near to full" now, something they just did not do towards the end of InterCity, hence why the Glasgow - Edinburgh - Plymouth sleeper ceased at the end of summer 1993

The main issue with the sleepers is their heavier BT10C bogies, hence why so many were "scrapped" as there just weren't enough spare bogies
There are a few spare sleepers in storage, but it isn't very many (about six) and all the rest I have seen do not have BT10C bogies

The sleepers could swap routes north of Carlisle, splitting/joining at Carstairs instead (just like the Glasgow / Edinburgh does)
However, there is little advantage to this
The southbound Inverness would no longer serve Falkirk Grahamston (not much loss there, but that's the one I use!)
The southbound Aberdeen would then become the last to arrive or would have to run about 30 minutes earlier
Finally, if any of those southbound portions is delayed then Carstairs could effectively become "grid locked", hence why using Edinburgh is easier (and this is also the same reason why Edinburgh was preferred over Mossend)

Mossend was originally rejected in the 1990s for loco changing, simply as Railfreight refused access to two sidings on a permanent basis overnight
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top