1B33 today (northern rail)

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34D

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Wonder if anyone can offer any insight into this at Leeds station this afternoon. Booked arrival 16:39 booked dep 16:41, actual arrival 16:43 actual departure 17:04.

2-car unit arrives at Leeds plat 9c from Blackpool. Passengers board. 10 mins later, a 3-car 158 arrives (from Neville Hill direction) is coupled and passengers board all 5 cars.

Announcement on board that train is too long for platforms and will passengers move into 3 car unit. Train leaves 20 mins late. Passengers in front 3 car unit and rear 2 car is empty.

The return working 1B42 18:05 york-blackpool was observed still 5 coaches, but this time with passengers in the 2 car.

Why!

Am I right that apart from East Garforth, the other stations on the line (cross gates, GRF, micklefield, church fenton and ullesklf) can all take 5 x 23m coaches?

Surely grandfather rights cover East Garforth anyway (so the train could have stopped, with a tannoy announcement to not exit from the rear coach?

Why are Northern Rail (or their staff) so averse to running MULTIPLE multiple units?
 
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The length issue would have been at Micklefield, platform takes 4 coaches. Guard right to use leading unit, even with announcements, little doubt there would have been someone for Micklefield sat at the very back, also all northern units lack SDL.
 

wilsontown

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I wondered about this too, I was getting the 1707 XC to York on my way home. According to my Quail, based on ~20 m coach lengths, the stations can take the following number of carriages:

Cross Gates 5
Garforth 6
East Garforth 5
Micklefield 4
Church Fenton 6
Ulleskelf 5

So you're going to struggle with a 5-car 158 in a few of those places. Church Fenton has long enough platforms, but of course a good chunk of them is out of use.

I thought that maybe they were trying to provide extra capacity for York given the Queen's visit today, but it didn't seem any busier than normal when I got there.

What I couldn't figure out was why the train was held for ages at Leeds, and then sent out just in front of the 1707, which then had to crawl behind it and arrived at York about 11 minutes late.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
...and thinking about it, the answer is probably platform space. The 158 combo was in platform 9, where the 1707 was due to arrive. Could have replatformed the 1707, but I'm not sure where: MkIV set in 8, 1641 in 9, 1711 xc to Plymouth due into 11, Man Vic (I think) stopper in 12, TPE services in and out of 15 and 16 all the time...
 

Anvil1984

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The 5 car could have been a result of the 1651 Leeds - Blackpool North being cancelled and the sets tied together to keep it out of the way. 5 cars would be too long for East Garforth and Micklefield. You could have locked out the back coach and pull down the fire doors but that can be tricky as they are barely used.For the way back on the 1805 the guard may not have been told if the set was being split en route
 

KingBBoogaloo

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I cant comment on why the 3-Car 158 was added, but for a 5-car 158 both Micklefied and East Garforth are to long.

“Grand farther rights” do apply to 158s, but we are talking about two 158s coupled together which is a different kettle of fish. It is technically possible to lock individual vehicles on a 158 OOU but you are walking into a minefield of bureaucracy only the bravest of Guards will venture so I guess the Guard took the simplest option, lock the smaller of the two units out of use, the 2-car, after all, you can fit more people in three cars than you can in two.

As for the return, no idea.
 

IanXC

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You could have locked out the back coach and pull down the fire doors but that can be tricky as they are barely used.
These are presumably at the connction between the coaches? Do they have a purpose as fire doors?

 

34D

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I cant comment on why the 3-Car 158 was added, but for a 5-car 158 both Micklefied and East Garforth are to long.

“Grand farther rights” do apply to 158s, but we are talking about two 158s coupled together which is a different kettle of fish. It is technically possible to lock individual vehicles on a 158 OOU but you are walking into a minefield of bureaucracy only the bravest of Guards will venture so I guess the Guard took the simplest option, lock the smaller of the two units out of use, the 2-car, after all, you can fit more people in three cars than you can in two.

As for the return, no idea.
I understand grandfather rights to mean (among other things) that if trains were using platforms where they are too long (since way back when) this may continue, with all doors being unlocked at the short platforms and passengers told to be aware?
 

Anvil1984

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These are presumably at the connction between the coaches? Do they have a purpose as fire doors?

Sorry for any confusion I've caused when I said firedoors I meant the roller shutter thats concealed at the corrior connection. If you go in the middle of a 158 by the connection then you will see a square panel on the roof and thats hows its accessed. However most of them havent been used for years and arent the cleanest thing on the train by a long shot
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I understand grandfather rights to mean (among other things) that if trains were using platforms where they are too long (since way back when) this may continue, with all doors being unlocked at the short platforms and passengers told to be aware?
Im not aware of the total reasoning but that would apply at a station which has for example always had HST services with 8 carriages but can only hold 4. If the TOC wanted to increase it to 9 carriages or use another traction then you would have to use another method.
In this case I don't think Micklefield or East Garforth has ever had regular 5 car 158 working as the rule probably came in before they were built
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I cant comment on why the 3-Car 158 was added, but for a 5-car 158 both Micklefied and East Garforth are to long.

“Grand farther rights” do apply to 158s, but we are talking about two 158s coupled together which is a different kettle of fish. It is technically possible to lock individual vehicles on a 158 OOU but you are walking into a minefield of bureaucracy only the bravest of Guards will venture so I guess the Guard took the simplest option, lock the smaller of the two units out of use, the 2-car, after all, you can fit more people in three cars than you can in two.

As for the return, no idea.
The guard has locked out the rear unit in each direction due to common sense as it saves him having to "buzz" when his train is on the platform (I had to do this once funnily enough at these station) when they attched a 142 to haul my 158 due to an AWS fault on the 158).
As I say this was all probably done last minute I was in Leeds waiting to do a Harrogate line service and was stood with the guard for that service and we had no idea what the plans were for 1B33 as it flickered from being a few minutes late to being on time then next thing I now this thread has popped up. All I know is that the 1651 Leeds to Blackpool (which starts at York) was cancelled so thats probably where the extra unit has came from.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Surely grandfather rights cover East Garforth anyway (so the train could have stopped, with a tannoy announcement to not exit from the rear coach?
With regard to the term "grandfather rights" when used on the railways of Britain, is there any set time limit in British railway law as to the length of time that these rights can apply ? (I have been reading about this terminology from its original usage in the United States of America, which is nothing to do with transportation).
 

andydcm

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Not convinced about the exact position by letter of the law, but opening any doors not platformed is now a big no-no for most companies - FGW operate HSTs that for many years just announced not to alight from non-platformed coaches, but now have Selective Door Operation; if there is a problem with the SDO we would still never authorise non-platformed doors to be opened.

With units, locking coaches out of use or using local door only are certainly possibilties but can be awkward or impractical on busy trains.
 

34D

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Not convinced about the exact position by letter of the law, but opening any doors not platformed is now a big no-no for most companies - FGW operate HSTs that for many years just announced not to alight from non-platformed coaches, but now have Selective Door Operation; if there is a problem with the SDO we would still never authorise non-platformed doors to be opened.

With units, locking coaches out of use or using local door only are certainly possibilties but can be awkward or impractical on busy trains.
That was more a risk-averse thing. There was no requirement for FGW to introduce SDO. All this has done is made life harder for other/future operators.
 

142094

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I used to commute on this line daily and never saw anything longer than a 3-car 158, apart from a time when there was disruption and they attached a 2-car 158 to the back, which was then split at York to work onto Hull. I have been on a 3-car 158 that stopped slightly short at Cross Gates for some reason, so the guard had to buzz the driver to move further along the platform. Never found out the reason for this, seeing as Cross Gates can easily fit a 3-car 158.
 

Anvil1984

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There is a regular 4 car 158 monday to friday diagram which is the 1728 Leeds to York all stations which is very tight at Micklefield
 

142094

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There is a regular 4 car 158 monday to friday diagram which is the 1728 Leeds to York all stations which is very tight at Micklefield
That is one of the services I used to get on frequently. Plus one of the only services to regularly use platform 7.
 

34D

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There is a regular 4 car 158 monday to friday diagram which is the 1728 Leeds to York all stations which is very tight at Micklefield
There's at least one morning 4 car, which last time I saw it was 3 car 144 plus a skateboard (153).
 

TEW

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That was more a risk-averse thing. There was no requirement for FGW to introduce SDO. All this has done is made life harder for other/future operators.
FGW had to introduce SDO to stop at stations with short platforms where HSTs hadn't called before.
 

142094

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There's at least one morning 4 car, which last time I saw it was 3 car 144 plus a skateboard (153).
That should be the one that comes from Harrogate and straight out to Leeds. The rest of the York - Leeds trains that I used to get were 158s, apart from the now (sadly) removed 08.27 York - Leeds stopper which was a 142.
 

Anvil1984

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Yep the 0745ish York to Leeds mainline is booked pacer and sprinter but only close to being an issue if its a 3 car 144 and a 155/6/8.

The 0827 wasnt taken off as such but was swapped as the 0812 used to be a Selby to Blackpool and the 0827 was a York to Leeds. They swapped the origin points over for a simpler timetable
 
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