1P14 @ Luton 1972-73

[Willo]

Hi all

I have come across a old picture that my Late father had taken at Luton 1972-73, this was the 1st train spotting day we went on I was 2ish. With a peak approaching station with 1P14 Headcode.
I would like if possible to find out loco hauling. Or where I maybe able to find info.

Many thanks in advance

Paul

 

[John Webb]

Notes I have to hand regarding the BR working time-table (WTT) for 1974-5 show that 1P14 was an express to Leeds, stopping at St Albans City station at 12:50, departing there at 12:51 and arriving at Luton at 13:01.5. This information is from extracts we set up to help program the simulator at St Albans South box; can't give you the time it left St Pancras or arrived at Leeds, as the original WTT is currently inaccessible.

 

[Andy R. A.]

1P14 would be a Derby service, Leeds would be 'E'. Attached scan on the 1972-73 page from the working timetable, showing it to be the 1230 St. Pancras to Derby

.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Notes I have to hand regarding the BR working time-table (WTT) for 1974-5 show that 1P14 was an express to Leeds, stopping at St Albans City station at 12:50, departing there at 12:51 and arriving at Luton at 13:01.5. This information is from extracts we set up to help program the simulator at St Albans South box; can't give you the time it left St Pancras or arrived at Leeds, as the original WTT is currently inaccessible.

That's intriguing. If it stopped at St Albans, even though it was a Class 1 train, it would have been a semi-fast stopping at all main stations to Leicester, then waiting for the following Sheffield (genuine) express to overtake it. What is intriguing is that I didn't know any worked through to Leeds in those years during the daytime. It would probably have been going via Nottingham, with the express fast via Derby to Sheffield.

EDIT - Andy RA has solved the mystery - it wasn't a Leeds train but a Derby semi-fast. Yes, of course, Leeds would be a 1E code. This was a standard semi-fast, Derby on even hours, Nottingham on the odd.

Doesn't really help the OP with his quest though. Is the loco a 45/1 (with no indicator panels)? That might help reduce the number possibilities.

It would almost certainly be timed to depart St Pancras at 12.30.

 

[Willo]

That's intriguing. If it stopped at St Albans, even though it was a Class 1 train, it would have been a semi-fast stopping at all main stations to Leicester, then waiting for the following Sheffield (genuine) express to overtake it. What is intriguing is that I didn't know any worked through to Leeds in those years during the daytime. It would probably have been going via Nottingham, with the express fast via Derby to Sheffield.

EDIT - Andy RA has solved the mystery - it wasn't a Leeds train but a Derby semi-fast. Yes, of course, Leeds would be a 1E code. This was a standard semi-fast, Derby on even hours, Nottingham on the odd.

Doesn't really help the OP with his quest though. Is the loco a 45/1 (with no indicator panels)? That might help reduce the number possibilities.

It would almost certainly be timed to depart St Pancras at 12.30.

Thank you all for you help so far

 

[Willo]

Notes I have to hand regarding the BR working time-table (WTT) for 1974-5 show that 1P14 was an express to Leeds, stopping at St Albans City station at 12:50, departing there at 12:51 and arriving at Luton at 13:01.5. This information is from extracts we set up to help program the simulator at St Albans South box; can't give you the time it left St Pancras or arrived at Leeds, as the original WTT is currently inaccessible.

Thank you for your help so far

 

[Willo]

1P14 would be a Derby service, Leeds would be 'E'. Attached scan on the 1972-73 page from the working timetable, showing it to be the 1230 St. Pancras to Derby

View attachment 78414.

Thank you for you help so far

 

[Willo]

Thank you for you help so far

You would have a copy of the working timetable for 71-72 as the pic I have shows a peak not a class 40

 

[70014IronDuke]

Thank you all for you help so far

I could also bet you a (then relatively new) 10p coin that it would have been a 7 or 8 coach train, all Mk 1s, and probably by then all with Commonwealth or B4 bogies, so 100 mph stock - although the line speed was still 90 mph at the time. And class 45s were limited to 90 mph - officially.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

You would have a copy of the working timetable for 71-72 as the pic I have shows a peak not a class 40

D315 = Diesel, 315 tons load. Not an indication of the class or individual locomotive hauling it.

 

[70014IronDuke]

You would have a copy of the working timetable for 71-72 as the pic I have shows a peak not a class 40

I think perhaps you are getting confused.
There were no Class 40s working on the Midland in those years. At least, not the southern end.

The D315 at the top of the working TT was a code for the timing-load of the train. All Class 1 trains on the Midland in those years were timed for Class 45 traction - although the occasional Cl 47 was also used.

 

[Willo]

I could also bet you a (then relatively new) 10p coin that it would have been a 7 or 8 coach train, all Mk 1s, and probably by then all with Commonwealth or B4 bogies, so 100 mph stock - although the line speed was still 90 mph at the time. And class 45s were limited to 90 mph - officially.

Thanks for this I have found out it is more likely 71-72 by my mums recollection

D315 = Diesel, 315 tons load. Not an indication of the class or individual locomotive hauling it.

Oh OK sorry I miss read it. Thank you for you help

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi all

I have come across a old picture that my Late father had taken at Luton 1972-73, this was the 1st train spotting day we went on I was 2ish. With a peak approaching station with 1P14 Headcode.
I would like if possible to find out loco hauling. Or where I maybe able to find info.

Many thanks in advance

Paul

can you scan and upload the pic Paul? (or take a digital photo of it and upload that maybe?)

 

[Cowley]

can you scan and upload the pic Paul? (or take a digital photo of it and upload that maybe?)

@Willo posted it in post #8, but here it is:


Lots of atmosphere.
It’s hard to see but to me it looks like it’s not fitted with ETH?

 

[70014IronDuke]

I think it's a 45/0 in this photo - I believe all the 45/1s had their indicator panels removed when rebuilt. Of course, if it was 1971, it might have been rebuilt later - I think they were still putting in ETH at that time.

Narrows it down a bit, but could be any one of a good few dozens of locos.

 

[John Webb]

That's intriguing. If it stopped at St Albans, even though it was a Class 1 train, it would have been a semi-fast stopping at all main stations to Leicester, then waiting for the following Sheffield (genuine) express to overtake it. What is intriguing is that I didn't know any worked through to Leeds in those years during the daytime. It would probably have been going via Nottingham, with the express fast via Derby to Sheffield.

EDIT - Andy RA has solved the mystery - it wasn't a Leeds train but a Derby semi-fast. Yes, of course, Leeds would be a 1E code. This was a standard semi-fast, Derby on even hours, Nottingham on the odd.

Doesn't really help the OP with his quest though. Is the loco a 45/1 (with no indicator panels)? That might help reduce the number possibilities.

It would almost certainly be timed to depart St Pancras at 12.30.

Thanks for the correction - looks like a mistake in transcribing from the timetable some 9 years ago. The final destination was not of great concern - it was the timing on approaching and leaving St Albans City that we were interested in!

 

[alistairlees]

I think it's a 45/0 in this photo - I believe all the 45/1s had their indicator panels removed when rebuilt. Of course, if it was 1971, it might have been rebuilt later - I think they were still putting in ETH at that time.

Narrows it down a bit, but could be any one of a good few dozens of locos.

A few at least of the 45s kept the indicator panels after conversion to 45/1s. Here's an example: https://www.flickr.com/photos/pics-by-john/15802534149
Also worth noting that the 45/1 conversion programmewas still going in 1974, I am not sure it had even begun in summer 1972.

 

[Andy R. A.]

If it's 1972/3 the Loco would probably still carry it's old pre-TOPs number without the 'D' prefix, and the design of headcode panel would point to it probably being in the grouping of numbers 32 to 67, or 108 to 137. It's not possible to zoom in enough to see if it has a nameplate or not which would narrow it down even more.
Interestingly the train appears to be in the Down Slow Line platform.

 

[70014IronDuke]

A few at least of the 45s kept the indicator panels after conversion to 45/1s. Here's an example: https://www.flickr.com/photos/pics-by-john/15802534149
Also worth noting that the 45/1 conversion programmewas still going in 1974, I am not sure it had even begun in summer 1972.

Thank you. Memory playing tricks - I was sure the ETH conversions had begun in 1971, but according to Derby Sulzers, BR only gave the green light in 1972. Mind you, they had to have enough by October 73 to run the Sheffield expresses with them, because that was when these trains went over to air-con Mk2s.

 

[70014IronDuke]

If it's 1972/3 the Loco would probably still carry it's old pre-TOPs number without the 'D' prefix, and the design of headcode panel would point to it probably being in the grouping of numbers 32 to 67, or 108 to 137. ...

Almost certainly true. General renumbering only began after Derby County sacked Brian Clough* in Oct 73. Before that, only new locos and those that had been in works for general repairs had been renumbered.

* This happens to be true, but there is no causal link