1st class if standard class is actually full

Discussion in 'Disputes & Prosecutions' started by Envy123, 11 May 2015.

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  1. Envy123

    Envy123 Member

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    One time, when I was waiting for a train to New Southgate at Finsbury Park, the train which arrived had both 1st class and standard class.

    Standard class was completely full and I was very lucky to be able to get on.

    But for future reference, should I be in that situation again, would it or would it not be alright to get onto first class and move towards the corridor section which separates both classes and wait for my stop, if I just have a standard ticket?

    Thank you :)
     
  2. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    No, it is not OK, though it would in my view be unusual for staff not to declassify in such a case except where there is a very frequent service (where otherwise people would be left behind on the platform).
     
  3. Envy123

    Envy123 Member

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    It didn't look declassified to me. 1st class was mostly empty and standard class was close to bursting capacity.

    I didn't mind standing, I mean it was only one stop, but I wanted to get on the train. I did manage to squeeze onto standard class but I wonder what to do if next time, Lady Luck will not be on my side in that situation?
     
  4. 221129

    221129 Established Member

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    If you travel in non declassified 1st Class with a standard ticket, you will be liable to a Penalty Fare or Prosecution.
     
  5. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    If there is a guard, ask before boarding.
     
  6. Arctic Troll

    Arctic Troll Established Member

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    On those trains the vestibule is standard class, it is only the bit through the internal doors which is first class. If you can get on the train you don't need to be in first class.

    Most trains calling at New Southgate are advertised as being standard-class only.
     
  7. Envy123

    Envy123 Member

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    Thing is, I would've happily bought an excess for First Class from Finsbury Park to New Southgate but at that time, I thought a PF = a penalty fare plus an automatic prosecution. So I actually can ask a guard if I can pay the First Class excess to the next stop?

    Well, good to know that my gut instinct was correct, so thank you :)
    That only happened once and I usually just go to the vestibule because I only need one stop and there's no need to sit down for me.
     
    Last edited: 11 May 2015
  8. tsr

    tsr Established Member

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    There will not be a guard on those trains.

    You could try asking any available RPI if they can issue an excess before you enter First Class, if one appears. They may or may not be willing to do so, but in any case, the time taken to issue the excess might be sufficient for your journey to be practically completed anyway.

    For clarity, though you seem to have very capably worked this out for yourself, a penalty fare is a higher than usual fare charged to those who have made an error. Whilst it feels like a fine, it is not. A prosecution would in all likelihood take place entirely separately to a PF matter unless you refused a PF or the opportunity to pay one was withdrawn. One might not be issued a Penalty Fare if moving into First Class was deliberate, but may instead be prosecuted.

    In practice, however, if you are pushed into First Class due to severe overcrowding, it is firstly unlikely an RPI could actually get to you, and secondly I am sure discretion would apply if it was absolutely impossible to remain in Standard without being crushed. Anything other than that and I would strongly suggest buying the correct ticket before boarding.

    This may seem unfair (especially as First Class enforcement is so variable) but remember that First Class is for those who pay extra for the space. If you'd be willing to pay, as you seem to be, that's very good, but please do so before boarding.

    On certain GTR routes, First Class vestibules have enforcement attached, and others don't. The usual "golden rule", excluding IIRC Thameslink Class 387s, is that if you are between the cab and the door between First Class and Standard Class, you are nominally in First Class.
     
    Last edited: 11 May 2015
  9. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    The difficulty with this is that many people are willing to pay for First Class if and only if they aren't going to get a seat in Standard. That often applies to me on longer journeys, when I might consider using Weekend First in such a situation.

    It would be nice if there was a means of doing this. Though I recognise the revenue protection issue it causes. Perhaps it's something that could be added to any future mobile ticketing solution? As that would record the time at which you made the upgrade purchase, an RPI would be able to establish if you were waiting until you saw one.
     
  10. jon0844

    jon0844 Veteran Member

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    For future reference, check the timetable to see if the service you get has first class in operation. Many morning services and afternoon peak services don't (and New Southgate is one stop on the trains that don't have first class).

    If the stopping pattern is something like Finsbury Park, New Southgate, Oakleigh Park, New Barnet, (sometimes Hadley Wood to allow the train to not catch up on a slow to WGC), Potters Bar, Hatfield (and ends at Welwyn Garden City) then chances are it's declassified.

    BUT, bear in mind that some of these services will be operated by a 6 car 313 without first class existing at all. In fact, that's one of the reasons why there's no first class - it depends on the stock used, which can change from day to day if there are any problems, and also change on each timetable change.

    Also, as stated, the Class 321 trains have a vestibule that isn't first class so you can stand there as long as you don't enter either compartment (and that includes perching on a seat inside first class as if you're somehow not in there!). Mind you, it has been said that some RPIs believe it to be part of first class.
     
    Last edited: 11 May 2015
  11. CharlieSpotted

    CharlieSpotted Member

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    This is an interesting one actually. I was once practically kicked off a Voyager at Birmingham New Street by a CrossCountry person. The Manchester service was, as usual, packed full at New Street and I stood in the vestibule at the end of the first class carriage (between the seated compartment and the crew compartment). The crew member first told me I couldn't stand there because it's First Class. When I argued the toss, they then told me I couldn't stand there because of "health & safety" (because they were serving hot drinks to the 1st class passengers).

    Surely, both reasons are bollocks, but the first especially so?
     
  12. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    No, it is correct, the First Class vestibule on that kind of train is still First Class and you require a FC ticket to stand there.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    I'm pretty sure that on LM the identical vestibule is considered part of First Class.
     
  13. Darandio

    Darandio Established Member

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    First one certainly isn't. Second one is reasonable.
     
  14. CharlieSpotted

    CharlieSpotted Member

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    Oh! It seems bizarre, but I stand corrected. Thanks.
     
  15. Jonfun

    Jonfun Member

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    I fail to see why it's bizzare. It's clearly signed as First Class on the inside and outside of the doors and inside the vestibule.
     
  16. Agent_c

    Agent_c Member

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    First class isn't a "Seat", its the compartment. If you think about it like that, then it makes perfect sense.

    Just like Standard class isn't the seat, its the compartment.
     
  17. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    Some of the FGW catering vehicles even had the yellow stripe above the vestibule only, signifying that it was part of the first class area.

    Don't know if that still applies with the recent changes though...
     
  18. CharlieSpotted

    CharlieSpotted Member

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    That makes sense... but still, standing in the first class vestibule has no bells and whistles that make it a "first class" experience. The space is exactly the same as the vestibules in the rest of the train. That's what seems bizarre to me, I think.
     
  19. 221129

    221129 Established Member

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    The micro buffets and yes they still do I believe.
     
  20. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    One of the benefits of First Class is a less crowded environment, which includes not having to push past standing passengers to get to the bog, and indeed not having to wait so long to use said bog.
     
  21. Agent_c

    Agent_c Member

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    I bet that FC passengers with a valid FC ticket who are forced to stand could still call upon the complementary drink service.
     
  22. CharlieSpotted

    CharlieSpotted Member

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    Also makes sense. I capitulate!
     
  23. Flamingo

    Flamingo Established Member

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    Kind of - the "composite" coaches have still got the "First class" stripe over the door, but the coaches either side of the vestibule are standard class, so it is "de facto" standard class. I'm sure this will be sorted over the year with the repaint.

    HOWEVER if the micro-buffet is right beside the First Class, I will kick people out of it, as the trolley is kept there and they get in the way.
     
  24. ChiefPlanner

    ChiefPlanner Established Member

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    Put it this way - I have (retired status 1st class leisure status) , I work and have a standard class season ticket. I pay for that obviously.

    In work times - I would never invade 1st class in similar circumstances - and will stand or get another train - I am not risking far more than a penalty fare in losing hard earned travel rights. (travelling peak hours or elsewhere on priv travel is terminal)

    Just an observation.
     
  25. Envy123

    Envy123 Member

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    Agreed - with the rise of smart ticketing, I would want ITSO to be able to allow passengers to upgrade to First Class when the train is actually waiting on the platform.

    Understood.

    Sometimes, though, I may be in the overcrowding situation like before. And there are times when I'm on the train, change my mind and suddenly decide I want to upgrade to First Class but then I realise that there's no reliable way to upgrade to First Class if I'm on the train.

    Though if there is a guard and/or RPI on board, I would definitely ask to pay an excess. :)

    I used the Class 321 at off-peak times and I always stood at the vestibule because the next station was always New Southgate with that train.

    Usually, the Welwyn Garden City (WGC) trains which arrive at the same platform as Cambridge and Peterborough services are the semi-fast Class 321 trains, complete with vestibules and First Class.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    I did want to pay an excess at the time, but I (rightly) figured that I can't pay an excess when the train is already waiting so I decided to squeeze myself in Standard Class.

    Ideally, I would be able to upgrade at any time to First Class even mid-way to my destination, although I can see that it would be difficult to implement, even with smart ticketing.
     
    Last edited: 11 May 2015
  26. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    That could, I guess, be handled by having validators in First Class, which would be switched off (in the manner of on-bus/train/tram validators in some countries) just before the grip to ensure people can't just touch in if they see an inspector.
     
  27. Envy123

    Envy123 Member

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    That could work :)

    I would welcome such a system, in all honesty.
     
  28. 455driver

    455driver Veteran Member

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    So you argued the toss and were wrong, how unusual! :roll:
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    But that only applies to everyone else, it doesn't apply to 'special' passengers! ;)
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    That was done to try and stop Standard class passengers boarding at that end and then having to squeeze past the buffet queue.
     
  29. bignosemac

    bignosemac Established Member

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    Indeed. Those trolleys do get in the way when left outside a micro buffet. Reducing available doors and hindering passenger flow at station calls.
     
  30. gray1404

    gray1404 Established Member

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    Is walking through 1st class not even allowed? I was on both a LM and SN service recently and had no option but to walk through 1st to access the WC at the other end of the train?
     
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