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1st class if standard class is actually full

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Flamingo

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You know what I think FGW should do (and perhaps Virgin and others)*.

1. Do a survey for first class passengers over a few weeks, or emailing season ticket holders, to ask if they'd be prepared for increased ticket checks on services - with the acknowledgement that it might delay their alighting at terminal stations, but ultimately help to reduce the number of standard class ticket holders walking through and standing in first class upon arrival.

This is particularly important.

2. Place posters on trains to state that first class accommodation may be subjct to ticket checks before arrival into London (generally speaking, this is where the problem must be worst given FC is at the London end).

3. Every now and then, revenue teams will stand ON THE PLATFORMS to check people getting off the train. Likewise revenue will also stand between first class and standard class for those 'attempting to escape', meaning a little pre-planning is required to have people on the train.

Obviously the pending check will be announced so first class ticket holders can get their tickets/passes ready and be allowed through as quickly as possible. Other staff can be on hand to help people off with bags (although doing so may get bad publicity, as some sort of suggestion of favouritism so maybe scratch that).

4. All people caught will be charged an open anytime first class ticket from the last station the train called at.

5. When the inevitable happens and social media gets swamped with stories of ill treatment from rude train staff, and how it inconveniences first class ticket holders (rest assured, this will be an argument used by those who didn't have one!), FGW and others immediately kick into gear by a) pointing out that first class ticket holders unanimously agreed for such checks to be made.

6. FGW follows up by pointing out that first class is reserved for people who wish to get work done, families that want to enjoy some extra space, people enjoying an extra bit of luxury on their holiday and are treating themselves.. all stuff so as to dispel the myth that FC is only used by people in suits, likely MPs on expenses or working at a major bank that is helping other fat cats avoid taxes. First class on a train is, after all, not quite like on an airline - and so ANYONE can go first class if they wish. Perhaps have a prepared series of examples showing that booking in advance can mean cheaper first class tickets than standard!

Do this only a few times and I'm pretty sure the problem will end, and even the Daily Mail will struggle to make FGW and other IC operators look bad.


* I'm not stupid. I know it won't happen, but it would if I worked there!
I agree with all of this, and have proposed most of it to various managers at times. It has never happened, in over ten years I have never seen an RPI on a train between Pad & Rdg.

Our current instructions are to politely ask passengers to move (if standing) and point out the notices to them, but if they refuse to move don't cause any conflict or confrontation, just leave them there.

Draw your own conclusions as to why this is.
 
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jon0844

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Clearly because FGW and others would be worried about the consequences, because First Class seems to conjure up a vision of rich men in suits that quaff champagne and look down on everyone else.

Of course it's not like this (always!) and first class is quite accessible to all, and so it's not always fat cats that are put out when others invade first class, or upgrade themselves because they don't like having to sit near other passengers.

Until TOCs realise they can't keep turning a blind eye to certain things, because they lead to worse things (once people see for themselves that nothing happens, or they can get away with anything they want) then it will be another ten years of nothing happening.
 

timbo58

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FGW could easily do this at little inconvenience to the genuine 1st class Pax.

3 Inspectors join at Reading,
One stays at the end of the bar and prevents anyone without a 1st class ticket entering the 1st class section, the other 2 carry out a full ticket check in 1st including all vestibules and charges everyone without a valid 1st class ticket the 1st class penalty fare anyone who doesn't want to pay that can be reported for prosecution.

Do that a few random times for a few weeks covering all departure routes (i.e. Bristol TM/Wales/Hereford/Cheltenham/West country) and the message will get through.

That way you tackle:
fare evasion in 1st between Didcot/Reading and Padd (basically wherever the guards don't currently do a full check from)
the vestibule loiterers
the walk through in the last 10 minute-rs

simple.
 

cjmillsnun

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I agree with all of this, and have proposed most of it to various managers at times. It has never happened, in over ten years I have never seen an RPI on a train between Pad & Rdg.

Our current instructions are to politely ask passengers to move (if standing) and point out the notices to them, but if they refuse to move don't cause any conflict or confrontation, just leave them there.

Draw your own conclusions as to why this is.

Because RDG commuters think they are god, and FGW management seems to think so too.
 
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jon0844

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As FC gets smaller, perhaps one day there won't be any first class at all? Standard offers Wi-Fi, a power socket and a place for a laptop, so it won't be an issue at all.

I think it would be a sad day when first class goes, but if you're not prepared to look out for those who use it, people will eventually stop of their own accord.
 

Mag_seven

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FGW could easily do this at little inconvenience to the genuine 1st class Pax.

3 Inspectors join at Reading,
One stays at the end of the bar and prevents anyone without a 1st class ticket entering the 1st class section, the other 2 carry out a full ticket check in 1st including all vestibules and charges everyone without a valid 1st class ticket the 1st class penalty fare anyone who doesn't want to pay that can be reported for prosecution.

Do that a few random times for a few weeks covering all departure routes (i.e. Bristol TM/Wales/Hereford/Cheltenham/West country) and the message will get through.

That way you tackle:
fare evasion in 1st between Didcot/Reading and Padd (basically wherever the guards don't currently do a full check from)
the vestibule loiterers
the walk through in the last 10 minute-rs

simple.

Just put a notice up that reads "Dear Standard Class Reading Commuter, having got your own way and forced FGW to reduce the number of 1st class coaches, kindly keep out of what 1st class is left. Thanks." <D
 

Flamingo

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FGW could easily do this at little inconvenience to the genuine 1st class Pax.

3 Inspectors join at Reading,
One stays at the end of the bar and prevents anyone without a 1st class ticket entering the 1st class section, the other 2 carry out a full ticket check in 1st including all vestibules and charges everyone without a valid 1st class ticket the 1st class penalty fare anyone who doesn't want to pay that can be reported for prosecution.

Do that a few random times for a few weeks covering all departure routes (i.e. Bristol TM/Wales/Hereford/Cheltenham/West country) and the message will get through.

That way you tackle:
fare evasion in 1st between Didcot/Reading and Padd (basically wherever the guards don't currently do a full check from)
the vestibule loiterers
the walk through in the last 10 minute-rs

simple.
You know that, I know that...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Because RDG commuters think they are god, and FGW management seems to think so too.

I couldn't possibly comment...
 

Tetchytyke

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Because RDG commuters think they are god, and FGW management seems to think so too.

I think it has less to do with First's management and more to do with there being a number of Conservative marginal constituencies in the Thames Valley and the Cotswolds...
 

andrewkeith5

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Our current instructions are to politely ask passengers to move (if standing) and point out the notices to them, but if they refuse to move don't cause any conflict or confrontation, just leave them there.

Draw your own conclusions as to why this is.

It's funny how in the rail sector the emails complaining of rules being enforced always seem to get a response, but the emails asking for basic rules to be enforced never do...you don't get that in most industries!

TOCs get all hot and bothered about split ticketing, but they can't be bothered to enforce first class with it's potentially much greater revenues...

Sadly I don't have the heart to knowingly travel with an invalid ticket so I'll renew my membership of the "perpetually ripped off for being honest society" :(
 

HilversumNS

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Sadly I don't have the heart to knowingly travel with an invalid ticket so I'll renew my membership of the "perpetually ripped off for being honest society"(

I saved a fortune in membership fees by paying for a junior membership and then claiming that the full members were being overcharged, you should try it :D
 

andrewkeith5

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I saved a fortune in membership fees by paying for a junior membership and then claiming that the full members were being overcharged, you should try it :D

I did try for a loyalty discount last time, but they just cancelled my quote and raised a new one 5% more expensive than the last :-P
 

timbo58

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Yes the vestibules between F & G & H & power car are all 1st class.
On an HST with 8 coaches where FGH are all 1st class that is anyway.

I understand this has changed and 1st has been reduced but the principle is the same re: Vestibules.

This LMF (lack of moral fibre to pinch a WWI phrase!) from FGW management causes knock on effects also - as if the company don't really make an efforts to protect their own revenue then the staff can become demoralised and end up 'doing the bare minimum' ticket wise -let's face it the guards job has enough customer care and safety aspects to cover 'going through the motions' nice and slowly too for tickets.

Staff seem to get jumped on for upsetting fare evaders and that then just means that less staff deal with fare evasion with any consistency or firmness like the old school BR guards and RPIs I had the pleasure of working with.

Don't get me wrong - we had our fair share of lazy herberts too but most senior conductors (as they were known then) knew the dodges, knew the 'regulars' and steered a tight ship ticket wise, I'm sure the majority of guards are still diligent nowadays but it appears less and less supported by management where tweets and Facebook have more sway over senior management that realising that fare dodgers always moan like hell when caught red handed and it's time they started recognising that and stopped listening to them!
 

Flamingo

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Yes the vestibules between F & G & H & power car are all 1st class.
On an HST with 8 coaches where FGH are all 1st class that is anyway.

I understand this has changed and 1st has been reduced but the principle is the same re: Vestibules.

This LMF (lack of moral fibre to pinch a WWI phrase!) from FGW management causes knock on effects also - as if the company don't really make an efforts to protect their own revenue then the staff can become demoralised and end up 'doing the bare minimum' ticket wise -let's face it the guards job has enough customer care and safety aspects to cover 'going through the motions' nice and slowly too for tickets.

Staff seem to get jumped on for upsetting fare evaders and that then just means that less staff deal with fare evasion with any consistency or firmness like the old school BR guards and RPIs I had the pleasure of working with.

Don't get me wrong - we had our fair share of lazy herberts too but most senior conductors (as they were known then) knew the dodges, knew the 'regulars' and steered a tight ship ticket wise, I'm sure the majority of guards are still diligent nowadays but it appears less and less supported by management where tweets and Facebook have more sway over senior management that realising that fare dodgers always moan like hell when caught red handed and it's time they started recognising that and stopped listening to them!

Again, I couldn't possibly comment...
 

maniacmartin

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Some sensationalist reporting about this issue in today's Evening Standard, with comments from Chuka Umunna, MP for Streatham.

Umunna blasts rail firm for 'fining people forced to stand in first class'

I don't buy the idea that TfL will cure all problems with London's railways, but as that has been covered in other threads I won't bring up my arguments here.
I don't think the inhabitants of Sussex would enjoy their services being run by a TfL subsiduary either!
 

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Flamingo

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Some sensationalist reporting about this issue in today's Evening Standard, with comments from Chuka Umunna, MP for Streatham.

Umunna blasts rail firm for 'fining people forced to stand in first class'

I don't buy the idea that TfL will cure all problems with London's railways, but as that has been covered in other threads I won't bring up my arguments here.
I don't think the inhabitants of Sussex would enjoy their services being run by a TfL subsiduary either!

When I see stories like this, I can understand why management don't bother putting RPI's on trains in and out of Paddington. Why take the flak from the MP from Reading, and have the bother of bad publicity? They won't get any thanks for it.

I think I'll give up trying, and just drink tea from Didcot onwards. Nobody will care if I do.
 

Mag_seven

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Some sensationalist reporting about this issue in today's Evening Standard, with comments from Chuka Umunna, MP for Streatham.

Umunna blasts rail firm for 'fining people forced to stand in first class'

I don't buy the idea that TfL will cure all problems with London's railways, but as that has been covered in other threads I won't bring up my arguments here.
I don't think the inhabitants of Sussex would enjoy their services being run by a TfL subsiduary either!


What next , Southern now forced to reduce number of 1st class seats to just two per set. ;)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
When I see stories like this, I can understand why management don't bother putting RPI's on trains in and out of Paddington. Why take the flak from the MP from Reading, and have the bother of bad publicity? They won't get any thanks for it.

I think I'll give up trying, and just drink tea from Didcot onwards. Nobody will care if I do.

I saw a first class "vestibule stander" on a FGW service at Reading today despite the fact it was the middle of the day and the train was half empty!
 
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Kite159

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If the service was so rammed that they had to stand in the 1st class area, how did the RPI get through in order to fine them?
 

ainsworth74

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If the service was so rammed that they had to stand in the 1st class area, how did the RPI get through in order to fine them?

Ah well that's the question that no one is asking are they! Perhaps that might reveal an inconvenient truth about the situation ;)
 

GodAtum

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When I see stories like this, I can understand why management don't bother putting RPI's on trains in and out of Paddington. Why take the flak from the MP from Reading, and have the bother of bad publicity? They won't get any thanks for it.

I think I'll give up trying, and just drink tea from Didcot onwards. Nobody will care if I do.

But surely the important people get 1st class, so they would want management to do something about those who should not be there?
 

Tetchytyke

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Is that related to FGW's policy on RPIs betwen Reading and Paddington?

I think Chuka Unumma has just proven my point for me.

And yes, I'm genuinely interested how the RPI got to them on a crush loaded train. My spidey senses detect bovine effluence.
 

ainsworth74

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But surely the important people get 1st class, so they would want management to do something about those who should not be there?

As both a standard class and first class (from time to time) rail user I find the implication that standard class travellers are somehow 'unimportant' rather offensive. On the occasions when I have managed to travel first class I don't see myself as any more 'important' than any other passenger on the train.
 

jon0844

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As both a standard class and first class (from time to time) rail user I find the implication that standard class travellers are somehow 'unimportant' rather offensive. On the occasions when I have managed to travel first class I don't see myself as any more 'important' than any other passenger on the train.

If you travel first class on an airline, you're treated as more important - and you're paying more for that extra treatment.

But it doesn't make standard/economy class people less important, if you see what I mean.

I do think someone paying for first class (even an advance ticket that might not be much more expensive at all) is entitled to have a service not degraded because standard class passengers decide to upgrade themselves, or perhaps feel angry that first class users get something they don't.

You don't go to the theatre and buy the cheap seats, then move yourself to a box.

There are plenty of other things to get offended about. Especially as on the train, anyone can go first class if they wish (ok, same for a plane but on a flight to New York, first class is significantly more expensive and quite possibly out of the price range of most - as well as being, IMO, a waste of money).
 
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ainsworth74

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I do think someone paying for first class (even an advance ticket that might not be much more expensive at all) is entitled to have a service not degraded because standard class passengers decide to upgrade themselves, or perhaps feel angry that first class users get something they don't.

I don't object to that at all (I'd be quite happy for Flamingo to have a flying squad of RPIs at his beck and call to deal with such passengers on his trains) I simply object to the implication that standard class passengers are less important.
 

GodAtum

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But surely FGW should treat 1st class passengers more importantly, therefore have better revenue protection services?
 

Shempz

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If the service was so rammed that they had to stand in the 1st class area, how did the RPI get through in order to fine them?

Maybe the RPI saw how busy it was, and asked the driver or conductor of they could come through the driver's cab (or the empty 2nd cab), as often on the Uckfield line, the front of carriage behind the cab's is 1st Class.

That's my only other theory...either that, or the story is a bit whiffy!
 

jon0844

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It'll be the latter. A gross exaggeration and the train not being crush loaded throughout at all.

Personally, unless the next train is hours away, if a train is crush loaded I get on the next one for my own sanity/comfort.
 
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