1st gen DMUs and DEMUs

[Journeyman]

Some experienced corrosion due to the location of St Leonards depot on the seafront. Not all was terminal though. I'm sure it would have been possible to select some of the better vehicles.

But what for? BR had a surplus of vehicles of lots of types knocking around at the time, they had no use for a micro-fleet of non-standard, narrow vehicles in terrible condition, and in urgent need of asbestos stripping and refurbishment. The need for DEMUs also dropped sharply after 1987 as the East Grinstead line was electrified. Both the Hastings and East Grinstead electrifications were cheap because there were enough spare EMUs to work all the trains.

 

[yorksrob]

But what for? BR had a surplus of vehicles of lots of types knocking around at the time, they had no use for a micro-fleet of non-standard, narrow vehicles in terrible condition, and in urgent need of asbestos stripping and refurbishment. The need for DEMUs also dropped sharply after 1987 as the East Grinstead line was electrified. Both the Hastings and East Grinstead electrifications were cheap because there were enough spare EMUs to work all the trains.

Arguably WR DMU's in the middle of the Southern Region was more of a micro-fleet than a few slightly differently shaped thumpers, which were compatible with the rest of them.

 

[Journeyman]

Arguably WR DMU's in the middle of the Southern Region was more of a micro-fleet than a few slightly differently shaped thumpers, which were compatible with the rest of them.

But they were maintained at Reading, at one end of the line, and were used on lots of other London area services, so weren't a micro-fleet at all.

 

[Taunton]

I suggest you read "Diesel Dawn, Irelands contribution to the development of the DMU 1931-1967" by Colm Flanagan 9ISBN 1-904242-08-1). AEC was not the only company supplying engines etc. Both the GNR(I) & LMS (NCC) had single cars that could multi & Single cars that worked with driving trailers in the 30s. When BR started to order DMUs, the manufacturers came over to the ROI & NI for ideas.

The LMS (NCC) four railcars from the 1930s were just that - railcars. They had strange high-level driving positions so the driver, who stayed in the railcar, could see over the top of the trailer when propelling. Some trailers were built with special low profile to facilitate this. The power train followed the pioneer LMS diesel unit (one only) approach, they were Leyland bus engines (factory next to the LMS main line, in an interesting comparison to the AEC/GWR liaison), with Lysholm-Smith hydraulic gearbox, as in Leyland "gearless" buses of the late 1930s. These never worked well in buses and were eventually taken off the market, on BR the first eight Derby Lightweight dmus had exactly this power train and control, by then pretty obsolete and incompatible with anything else, which was then given up altogether for the AEC approach.

The Leyland system was one of those which, on both buses and trains, meant the power was essentially "on" or "off". They started off with a big engine roar but not a lot of initial movement, then slowly accelerating away at constant rpm. It does lead to wasted mpg, the surplus energy being dissipated as heat. Early car automatic gearboxes were the same. It does of course make mu more simpler if gearchanging is automatic. Some systems synchronised the automatic changing, so all cars in a formation changed together, while others had each car determine the change point, which with little variations could lead to hillclimbing with some cars in different gears.

I have to say that Sprinters, starting off with an engine roar but no forward movement for several seconds, are very reminiscent of those old "gearless" buses.

 

[yorksrob]

But they were maintained at Reading, at one end of the line, and were used on lots of other London area services, so weren't a micro-fleet at all.

Well, a Metro-Cammel wasn't particularly the height of comfort. I'd have been dissappointed to have to do a trip any distance in one.

 

[RT4038]

Well, a Metro-Cammel wasn't particularly the height of comfort. I'd have been dissappointed to have to do a trip any distance in one.

They might not have been the height of comfort (but what is seems a very subjective and contentious issue), but their deep pile seats, forward vision and consistent saloon warmth made them an attractive means of transport to me. Full of character, especially when driven hard, if the contemporary bus traction package floats your boat, second only to a steam engine at load. The single bolster bogies gave a lively ride at speed (not what they were designed or intended for), with a non-stop run from Falkirk Grahamston to Haymarket or Darlington to Durham being particularly exhilarating. But for the full experience, uphill at full throttle on jointed track, with the throaty roar of the BUT engines reverberating off the cutting walls, on sections such as Brampton Junction or Haltwhistle to Gilsland, or west of Doncaster on the Shefield line. Ah......

Sadly never to be quite experienced again, although the preserved examples on the Ecclesbourne Valley and GCR give a fair representation at an easier pace!

 

[yorksrob]

They might not have been the height of comfort (but what is seems a very subjective and contentious issue), but their deep pile seats, forward vision and consistent saloon warmth made them an attractive means of transport to me. Full of character, especially when driven hard, if the contemporary bus traction package floats your boat, second only to a steam engine at load. The single bolster bogies gave a lively ride at speed (not what they were designed or intended for), with a non-stop run from Falkirk Grahamston to Haymarket or Darlington to Durham being particularly exhilarating. But for the full experience, uphill at full throttle on jointed track, with the throaty roar of the BUT engines reverberating off the cutting walls, on sections such as Brampton Junction or Haltwhistle to Gilsland, or west of Doncaster on the Shefield line. Ah......

Sadly never to be quite experienced again, although the preserved examples on the Ecclesbourne Valley and GCR give a fair representation at an easier pace!

Warm saloon - you should have tried a thumper with the heating on !

 

[Journeyman]

Well, a Metro-Cammel wasn't particularly the height of comfort. I'd have been dissappointed to have to do a trip any distance in one.

That's got nothing to do with whether it's a micro-fleet or not, or whether they were better/worse than Hastings units, which were falling to pieces by then, and no longer needed anywhere. BR was moving towards standardisation, and the Class 101 is about as standard as a DMU ever got.

 

[yorksrob]

That's got nothing to do with whether it's a micro-fleet or not, or whether they were better/worse than Hastings units, which were falling to pieces by then, and no longer needed anywhere. BR was moving towards standardisation, and the Class 101 is about as standard as a DMU ever got.

I happen to feel that passenger comfort is very important, as I know you do.

 

[6Gman]

A 205 was configured on refurbishment to work with EMU’ s. Think it was 205 111. Don’t know if it ever worked in service multipled to an EMU though. Back to 1st gen DMU’s below the sole bar they were all basically the same regardless of whether a suburban or longer distance cross country units. Due to line closures many were used on services completely unsuited to there designed use, for example suburban units used on services of over 2 hours. Whilst Cravens were used on services from Kings Cross. 8 cars made up of 4x2 car units resulting in 8 driving cabs and 4 brake vans in each , completely wasted space.

There used to be an evening Hereford - Crewe working that used a 3car suburban unit. No idea how it went back.

Used it once.

It was . . . uncomfortable.

 

[Journeyman]

There used to be an evening Hereford - Crewe working that used a 3car suburban unit. No idea how it went back.

Used it once.

It was . . . uncomfortable.

Class 115s operated all the way from Marylebone to Nottingham in the final days of the Great Central. Non-gangwayed with only one coach in four containing toilets. That needed a strong constitution!

Would have been OK in first class, but anywhere else must have been a bit grim to say the least.

 

[Journeyman]

I happen to feel that passenger comfort is very important, as I know you do.

101s were decently refurbished in the 80s and were in much better condition than the Hastings units, which were dingy and cramped as hell.

 

[yorksrob]

101s were decently refurbished in the 80s and were in much better condition than the Hastings units, which were dingy and cramped as hell.

A bus seat is a bus seat.

Give me any thumper, any day. Far more comfortable.

 

[Taunton]

Class 115s operated all the way from Marylebone to Nottingham in the final days of the Great Central. Non-gangwayed with only one coach in four containing toilets. That needed a strong constitution!

Would have been OK in first class, but anywhere else must have been a bit grim to say the least.

Actually those Marylebone units were considered to be the best "suburban" units built. They did Liverpool-Manchester expresses on the CLC as well, and were quite different to the St Pancras units that preceded them off the Derby heavyweight production line and which they looked identical to. Different power units, quieter and vibrated less, notably different seating, and less austere interior trim. They lasted a lot longer too. Someone different must have done the spec.

I think only enthusiasts travelled through from Marylebone to Nottingham by their time. Most were making intermediate journeys.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Class 115s operated all the way from Marylebone to Nottingham in the final days of the Great Central. Non-gangwayed with only one coach in four containing toilets. That needed a strong constitution!

Would have been OK in first class, but anywhere else must have been a bit grim to say the least.

I travelled on an Arkwright St - Marylebone train near the end (the Midland line was strike bound) and my recollection was it was a Derby lightweight 2 car branch line type set.
The St Pancras - Bedford sets did 'escape' at least as far as Leicester (all stations from Bedford) in their early days.


For branch line exploration (as against steam traction) railtours the 3 car Metro-Cammell sets (from ?Walsall) seemed to be the unit of choice on the LM, and they were much more pleasant (or less unpleasant!) than some other manufacturer's products.
No-one has mentioned the fumes from heaters - these often induced sleep regardless of time of day, suggesting that they might have contained very unhealthy gases.

 

[Helvellyn]

73/0 are totally different Locos in terms of wiring and control to 73/1. One designed at Eastleigh and one by EE. Don't take my word for it, look at the schematics.

So much so that under TOPS the Class 73/0s were nearly classified as Class 72 (so would have been 72001-72006) and the 73/1s would have just been 73s (so would have been 73001-73042).

Equally, the nineteen Class 33/1s were very nearly Class 34.

 

[Bald Rick]

Touching on the Southern DEMUs....

I remember being at Victoria on a Friday in May 2004 for a trip to a fun filled night in Brighton, when (I think) the last trip of a Southern DEMU to Uckfield left. As I was walking to my train I just saw the tail lights leaving the platform.

In my mind it was a Hastings unit in Connex colours, but that can’t be right can it?

 

[yorksrob]

Touching on the Southern DEMUs....

I remember being at Victoria on a Friday in May 2004 for a trip to a fun filled night in Brighton, when (I think) the last trip of a Southern DEMU to Uckfield left. As I was walking to my train I just saw the tail lights leaving the platform.

In my mind it was a Hastings unit in Connex colours, but that can’t be right can it?

I think either Connex or Southern did borrow HDL's thumper a few times, but that was in Southern Green, not Connex. I don't think a Hastings unit has ever been painted in Connex livery (thankfully).

 

[Bald Rick]

I think either Connex or Southern did borrow HDL's thumper a few times, but that was in Southern Green, not Connex. I don't think a Hastings unit has ever been painted in Connex livery (thankfully).

Presumably the Oxted line units were painted in Connex colours though? In which case it must have been those.

 

[yorksrob]

Presumably the Oxted line units were painted in Connex colours though? In which case it must have been those.

Oh yes, they were.

 

[Journeyman]

Actually those Marylebone units were considered to be the best "suburban" units built. They did Liverpool-Manchester expresses on the CLC as well, and were quite different to the St Pancras units that preceded them off the Derby heavyweight production line and which they looked identical to. Different power units, quieter and vibrated less, notably different seating, and less austere interior trim. They lasted a lot longer too. Someone different must have done the spec.

Agreed they were somewhat better-appointed than other suburban units - I travelled on them in their final days on Chiltern, and even when old and quite worn out they weren't bad. They weren't much good for hugely long journeys, though!

I think only enthusiasts travelled through from Marylebone to Nottingham by their time. Most were making intermediate journeys.

That wouldn't surprise me. Despite the widespread howls of protest about the closure of the GC, both at the time and since, it's an indisputable fact that the passenger trains were never very busy. I read somewhere recently that departures from Marylebone in the final few years were regularly completely empty.

 

[Journeyman]

I think either Connex or Southern did borrow HDL's thumper a few times, but that was in Southern Green, not Connex. I don't think a Hastings unit has ever been painted in Connex livery (thankfully).

When Connex/Southern borrowed the Hastings unit, they always used it on the Ashford to Hastings line, to keep it close to the HDL base at St. Leonard's. It's appeared on the Uckfield line a few times, but on railtours rather than regular services.

You're right, no Hastings vehicles were painted in Connex livery, but a few vehicles converted for departmental use made it into NSE livery (which looked weird). In passenger carrying days, the entire fleet was blue and grey, apart from the last complete unit in BR service, which got a green repaint before withdrawal.

 

[Cowley]

In passenger carrying days, the entire fleet was blue and grey, apart from the last complete unit in BR service, which got a green repaint before withdrawal.

But that BR ‘depot pet’ green version where they pushed it as far as they could get away with before getting told off...

 

[Journeyman]

But that BR ‘depot pet’ green version where they pushed it as far as they could get away with before getting told off...

Haha, yes! It had full yellow ends, and I've a feeling it might have had double arrows on the motor coaches.

 

[yorksrob]

You're right, no Hastings vehicles were painted in Connex livery, but a few vehicles converted for departmental use made it into NSE livery (which looked weird). In passenger carrying days, the entire fleet was blue and grey, apart from the last complete unit in BR service, which got a green repaint before withdrawal.

But that BR ‘depot pet’ green version where they pushed it as far as they could get away with before getting told off...

I was always desperately chasing that unit in the late 1980's !

 

[delt1c]

A bus seat is a bus seat.

Give me any thumper, any day. Far more comfortable.

I always had a soft spot for the Met Cams , they always seemed a cut above other 1st gen DMU’s , however the the prototype refurb “White Ghost” showed what BR could have done if finance was available, especially in the 1st class of the DMC. Travelled on this unit many times on Sc region but finest trip on this unit was 08.35 Summer only Glasgow Queen St to Oban. Travelled in 1st class section where comfort and views ahead way surpassed the loco hauled service. Only negative was no catering.

 

[Merle Haggard]

That wouldn't surprise me. Despite the widespread howls of protest about the closure of the GC, both at the time and since, it's an indisputable fact that the passenger trains were never very busy. I read somewhere recently that departures from Marylebone in the final few years were regularly completely empty.

Perhaps supply was a factor on demand.
From my Summer 1963 passenger timetable (some years before closure) the mainline service departures from Marylebone on a week day were:
03.40, 08.38,14.38,16.38,21.15, all to Nottingham.
The argument against the closure of the GC was that the tactic had been used of providing a level of service that destroyed demand some time before closure was proposed.

Incidentally, although the frequency varies between 2 and 6 hours, the minutes were pretty consistent.

 

[yorksrob]

Perhaps supply was a factor on demand.
From my Summer 1963 passenger timetable (some years before closure) the mainline service departures from Marylebone on a week day were:
03.40, 08.38,14.38,16.38,21.15, all to Nottingham.
The argument against the closure of the GC was that the tactic had been used of providing a level of service that destroyed demand some time before closure was proposed.

Incidentally, although the frequency varies between 2 and 6 hours, the minutes were pretty consistent.

No departures North between 8:38 and 14:38definitely seems like 'closure by stealth' territory.

 

[Andy R. A.]

When Connex/Southern borrowed the Hastings unit, they always used it on the Ashford to Hastings line, to keep it close to the HDL base at St. Leonard's. It's appeared on the Uckfield line a few times, but on railtours rather than regular services.

You're right, no Hastings vehicles were painted in Connex livery, but a few vehicles converted for departmental use made it into NSE livery (which looked weird). In passenger carrying days, the entire fleet was blue and grey, apart from the last complete unit in BR service, which got a green repaint before withdrawal.

As a matter of interest this combination ran in service on 21.02.03 while 205025's Motor Coach was under repair. Ran all day. On that day all three Hastings Motor Coaches were in public service, the three car Hastings set, and Motor Coach 60118 paired with 205025's Driving Trailer.


Other strange combinations of the time were :-

 

[RT4038]

No departures North between 8:38 and 14:38definitely seems like 'closure by stealth' territory.

I don't think it was particularly 'by stealth' - the sensible decision had been taken in the late 50s to concentrate the main flows onto the parallel lines (MML mostly) so they could run at the best frequency affordable, which left hopelessly uneconomic local traffic only. If money was going to be spent on improving frequency of service, better it was spent on lines with some chance of washing their face financially. (As indeed it was on the WCML after electrification). Who (in the early 1960s) would have benefited from a more frequent service anyway? Brackley was a small market town, whose population mainly wanted to go Banbury (and served by the splendid omnibus service of the friendly 'Midland Red') and the railway village of Woodford Halse, much de-populated. The number of potential customers from Aylesbury to Leicester/Nottingham or vice-versa would have been very small indeed.

I did travel, as a child, on the one DMU trip from Marylebone to Nottingham - front seats behind the driver, on a very empty train as I recall. Splendid!