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1st gen DMUs and DEMUs

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Journeyman

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Perhaps supply was a factor on demand.
From my Summer 1963 passenger timetable (some years before closure) the mainline service departures from Marylebone on a week day were:
03.40, 08.38,14.38,16.38,21.15, all to Nottingham.
The argument against the closure of the GC was that the tactic had been used of providing a level of service that destroyed demand some time before closure was proposed.

Incidentally, although the frequency varies between 2 and 6 hours, the minutes were pretty consistent.

I think it's much more a case of the service gradually being reduced because so few people used it. Even the service on the ECML and WCML was far less frequent and regular in those days than it is now, so there wasn't anything massively unusual about that.

The GC was a dead duck even before it was opened.
 
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yorksrob

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I don't think it was particularly 'by stealth' - the sensible decision had been taken in the late 50s to concentrate the main flows onto the parallel lines (MML mostly) so they could run at the best frequency affordable, which left hopelessly uneconomic local traffic only. If money was going to be spent on improving frequency of service, better it was spent on lines with some chance of washing their face financially. (As indeed it was on the WCML after electrification). Who (in the early 1960s) would have benefited from a more frequent service anyway? Brackley was a small market town, whose population mainly wanted to go Banbury (and served by the splendid omnibus service of the friendly 'Midland Red') and the railway village of Woodford Halse, much de-populated. The number of potential customers from Aylesbury to Leicester/Nottingham or vice-versa would have been very small indeed.

I did travel, as a child, on the one DMU trip from Marylebone to Nottingham - front seats behind the driver, on a very empty train as I recall. Splendid!

All the same, If I were visiting Brackley, a morning departure between 9:00 and 11:00 would be more useful.
 

yorksrob

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As a matter of interest this combination ran in service on 21.02.03 while 205025's Motor Coach was under repair. Ran all day. On that day all three Hastings Motor Coaches were in public service, the three car Hastings set, and Motor Coach 60118 paired with 205025's Driving Trailer.
View attachment 77237View attachment 77238

Other strange combinations of the time were :-
View attachment 77239
View attachment 77240

I've often wondered what happenned to the Railtrack liveried thumper. I know it lived at StLeonards for many years.
 

Journeyman

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All the same, If I were visiting Brackley, a morning departure between 9:00 and 11:00 would be more useful.

...said no-one ever, while the line was actually open. How many people would regularly travel from London to Brackley?

If there had been more trains, each one would have been carting even more fresh air about.
 

yorksrob

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People travelled from London to other towns.

I'm just saying that assuming few people commuted to Brackley or Woodford Halse, a 9:30 or 10:00 departure from Marylebone would have been more useful than 8:30.
 

RT4038

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...said no-one ever, while the line was actually open. How many people would regularly travel from London to Brackley?

If there had been more trains, each one would have been carting even more fresh air about.

I think that if you were contemplating a trip from London to Brackley in the 1960s, you would have had a very good reason to go there, and simply travelled on the available trains. That most people in London now would never have heard of Brackley, let alone know where it was, probably gives some indication of how much business there would have been then.
Like the S&D, the GC evokes interest and bitterness in rail enthusiast circles in inverse proportion to the number of passengers using it at the time of closure!
However, I fear that we are straying from the subject of the thread, which is the (much maligned) 1st generation DMU/DEMU, which certainly touched the GC more than the S&D.
 

yorksrob

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I think that if you were contemplating a trip from London to Brackley in the 1960s, you would have had a very good reason to go there, and simply travelled on the available trains. That most people in London now would never have heard of Brackley, let alone know where it was, probably gives some indication of how much business there would have been then.
Like the S&D, the GC evokes interest and bitterness in rail enthusiast circles in inverse proportion to the number of passengers using it at the time of closure!
However, I fear that we are straying from the subject of the thread, which is the (much maligned) 1st generation DMU/DEMU, which certainly touched the GC more than the S&D.

At the risk of straying further, I think the S&D probably had more potential than the Woodford-Aylesbury section of the GC due to there not being much of an alternative linking Bournemouth/Poole to the West/NWest.
 

RT4038

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At the risk of straying further, I think the S&D probably had more potential than the Woodford-Aylesbury section of the GC due to there not being much of an alternative linking Bournemouth/Poole to the West/NWest.

DMUs were certainly used on a regular basis on the Bristol TM - Mangotsfield - Bath Green Park local trains. Of the S&D proper - the book 'Somerset & Dorset Swansong' refers to a railtour on 10.5.58 using a three car Swindon Cross Country DMU from Bath to Templecombe, and a DMU shuttle operated on 9.6.61 from Bath to Wellow in connection with a Jazz festival. On 6.4.68 a mixed four car unit on an RCTS tour traversed the short remaining section to Writhington Colliery near Radstock, and possibly other DMU tours did this bit too. I am unsure if, after passenger closure, a DEMU ever reached Blandford from Poole on a railtour?

I suspect, with a very large dose of hindsight, the best (most economical and likely to generate the most useful intermediate traffic) way of serving Bournemouth - Bristol (and further afield) flows [ as much as they may have been] would have been retention of the Salisbury-West Moors-Wimborne section (pity the line didn't serve Ringwood directly). Of course this was a bucolic little used byway at the time, and never [to my knowledge] traversed by a DEMU or DMU.
 

yorksrob

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I always had a soft spot for the Met Cams , they always seemed a cut above other 1st gen DMU’s , however the the prototype refurb “White Ghost” showed what BR could have done if finance was available, especially in the 1st class of the DMC. Travelled on this unit many times on Sc region but finest trip on this unit was 08.35 Summer only Glasgow Queen St to Oban. Travelled in 1st class section where comfort and views ahead way surpassed the loco hauled service. Only negative was no catering.

I must admit, my journey was at night, so there was little to see, other than plain formica.
 

yorksrob

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DMUs were certainly used on a regular basis on the Bristol TM - Mangotsfield - Bath Green Park local trains. Of the S&D proper - the book 'Somerset & Dorset Swansong' refers to a railtour on 10.5.58 using a three car Swindon Cross Country DMU from Bath to Templecombe, and a DMU shuttle operated on 9.6.61 from Bath to Wellow in connection with a Jazz festival. On 6.4.68 a mixed four car unit on an RCTS tour traversed the short remaining section to Writhington Colliery near Radstock, and possibly other DMU tours did this bit too. I am unsure if, after passenger closure, a DEMU ever reached Blandford from Poole on a railtour?

I suspect, with a very large dose of hindsight, the best (most economical and likely to generate the most useful intermediate traffic) way of serving Bournemouth - Bristol (and further afield) flows [ as much as they may have been] would have been retention of the Salisbury-West Moors-Wimborne section (pity the line didn't serve Ringwood directly). Of course this was a bucolic little used byway at the time, and never [to my knowledge] traversed by a DEMU or DMU.

I'm sure I read somewhere that the S&D remained steam hauled (in terms of regular passenger services).

The Salisbury line still seems a bit roundabout in comparison, particularly as you would have had to have travelled West, then East, then West again.
 

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RT4038

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I'm sure I read somewhere that the S&D remained steam hauled (in terms of regular passenger services).

The Salisbury line still seems a bit roundabout in comparison, particularly as you would have had to have travelled West, then East, then West again.

The regular passenger services on the S&D were steam hauled to the end, but as this is a 1st Gen DMU/DEMU thread I am recalling the few trips on parts of the line made by these august units.
The S&D line from Bristol to Bournemouth was not particularly direct either, and was largely very rural with little prospect of intermediate traffic. The via Salisbury route would have considerably reduced the track miles required specifically for this service , and therefore the maintenance and operating costs, especially as the S&D route was so awkward with reversals and stiff gradients.
 

yorksrob

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The regular passenger services on the S&D were steam hauled to the end, but as this is a 1st Gen DMU/DEMU thread I am recalling the few trips on parts of the line made by these august units.
The S&D line from Bristol to Bournemouth was not particularly direct either, and was largely very rural with little prospect of intermediate traffic. The via Salisbury route would have considerably reduced the track miles required specifically for this service , and therefore the maintenance and operating costs, especially as the S&D route was so awkward with reversals and stiff gradients.

Either way, I can't help but think that Bournemouth/Poole should have been left with better connections (preferably thumper served).
 

30907

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Either way, I can't help but think that Bournemouth/Poole should have been left with better connections (preferably thumper served).
By which route, though?
Bristol and South Wales are the dedtinations that lost out with the 60s closures, but it's difficult to imagine a service via Evercreech OR Verwood (the S&D or the S&D!) that would beat the present 2.5hr Bournemouth-Bristol timings.
And even Exeter is marginal, sadly.
 

yorksrob

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By which route, though?
Bristol and South Wales are the dedtinations that lost out with the 60s closures, but it's difficult to imagine a service via Evercreech OR Verwood (the S&D or the S&D!) that would beat the present 2.5hr Bournemouth-Bristol timings.
And even Exeter is marginal, sadly.

I'd have gone Evercreech personally.
 

RT4038

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I'd have gone Evercreech personally.

It is all a bit academic, as both lines have long gone and are never coming back. The best we could hope for now (and probably the best then, but would have required scarce capital resource) would be the construction of a West to North chord at Redbridge, which would allow now faster journey times between Bournemouth and Bristol than either of the two suggested lines when open. Just over 2 hours with the usual stops; your fastest S&D train ('Pines Express') had only got to Bath by then, with a reversal and at least another 40 min to Bristol via Mangotsfield. Could have been a Thumper, but even better a Diesel Mechanical unit at Bournemouth ...... (non corridor suburban unit of course!)
 

yorksrob

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It is all a bit academic, as both lines have long gone and are never coming back. The best we could hope for now (and probably the best then, but would have required scarce capital resource) would be the construction of a West to North chord at Redbridge, which would allow now faster journey times between Bournemouth and Bristol than either of the two suggested lines when open. Just over 2 hours with the usual stops; your fastest S&D train ('Pines Express') had only got to Bath by then, with a reversal and at least another 40 min to Bristol via Mangotsfield. Could have been a Thumper, but even better a Diesel Mechanical unit at Bournemouth ...... (non corridor suburban unit of course!)

Non corridoor suburban - that's a long way without a loo ! (all the thumpers had at them).
 

RT4038

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Non corridoor suburban - that's a long way without a loo ! (all the thumpers had at them).

We were hardier then....! The roasting heaters and the synchronous vibration took away all desire.
 

Taunton

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There were just odd services from Bristol TM to Bath Green Park with a Swindon 3-car dmu, if one was spare and available. The service was mainly steam through to the end, including commonly with green SR carriages, like the main S&D.

Bristol to Bournemouth has very little demand, either rail or road. They have no established links. Bristol has always focused on Weymouth as its south coast day trip, resort and retirement place, even by road its straight down the A37 (dead straight, much is an old Roman road). We've discussed this previously. The most efficient way if you actually want to go to Bournemouth is the longstanding Cardiff-Portsmouth service, always several per day, changing at Southampton, all using existing services.

The S&D itself was a long way round. From where it crossed the GW Frome line at Radstock, it was 14 miles directly up that line to Bristol, but 28 miles and a reversal on the S&D via Bath.
 

RT4038

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There were just odd services from Bristol TM to Bath Green Park with a Swindon 3-car dmu, if one was spare and available. The service was mainly steam through to the end, including commonly with green SR carriages, like the main S&D.

Bristol to Bournemouth has very little demand, either rail or road. They have no established links. Bristol has always focused on Weymouth as its south coast day trip, resort and retirement place, even by road its straight down the A37 (dead straight, much is an old Roman road). We've discussed this previously. The most efficient way if you actually want to go to Bournemouth is the longstanding Cardiff-Portsmouth service, always several per day, changing at Southampton, all using existing services.

The S&D itself was a long way round. From where it crossed the GW Frome line at Radstock, it was 14 miles directly up that line to Bristol, but 28 miles and a reversal on the S&D via Bath.

There is a photograph of a Swindon 3-car DMU departing Oldland Common on 13.5.64, on P63 of 'The Heyday of the DMU' by Alan Butcher. Whereas there were DMU working (even if irregularly) on this section, there were none on the S&D proper. Indeed the last passenger departure of all from Bath (Green Park), a returning railtour to Birmingham in connection with the last S&D trains, was a DMU.

I guess what you say about Bristol-Bournemouth traffic is why no attempt was made to provide a through service via Southampton on closure of the S&D, the small number of passengers could change there instead.
 

hexagon789

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Ah, did they - my knowledge of them was limited !

117s and 118s both had two toilets in the centre trailer car; and while originally ungangwayed were later fitted with gangways as were the 116s though they didn't have toilets.
 

yorksrob

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117s and 118s both had two toilets in the centre trailer car; and while originally ungangwayed were later fitted with gangways as were the 116s though they didn't have toilets.

I always thought it would have been worth gangwaying the 207's a lot earlier - the middle carriage with compartments could be walked through end to end, so the whole unit could have been walk through.

Of course a few got gangways in the 90's for the Marshlink, but they lost the centre carriages at the time.
 

hexagon789

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I always thought it would have been worth gangwaying the 207's a lot earlier - the middle carriage with compartments could be walked through end to end, so the whole unit could have been walk through.

Of course a few got gangways in the 90's for the Marshlink, but they lost the centre carriages at the time.

I agree, that would've seemed quite logical even for the loss of a few seats.

Didn't some of the Marshlink units get ex-EMU trailers to operate with when they gained gangways, with them being removed in the winter reducing sets back to 2-car?
 

yorksrob

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I agree, that would've seemed quite logical even for the loss of a few seats.

Didn't some of the Marshlink units get ex-EMU trailers to operate with when they gained gangways, with them being removed in the winter reducing sets back to 2-car?

They did - although a bit later after the original middle carriages had gone.

They had redundant CEP trailers inserted for the new Ashford - Brighton direct service in connection with the opening of the channel tunnel.

I don't remember them ever removing the CEP trailers on an annual basis though.
 
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