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1st May Northern passengers told to all travel in the front carriage

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trebor79

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Unless they happen to be your workplace.... :lol:

I am a train guard on 15x and 170s and spend most of my time in the train checking and selling tickets and operating the doors. Funnily enough none of our trains have ever had any seats cordoned off though, although at times of highest transmission we had revenue duties withdrawn and if we wanted we could cordon off the back set of doors. We were always walking through to do Local Door stations too while for example TfW were being stupid and not stopping.
Still only a few minutes of exposure per journey though isn't it, way less than the punters. If it's that dangerous trains shouldn't be running [it isn't that dangerous of course].
The thing that disappointed me most about the Rail Industry Coronavirus Forum was that I assumed it would lead to common good practice between TOCs. Instead individual H&S sections at TOCs and trade union representatives came up with loads of wildly different ways of doing things.

Exactly. Even allowing for variances in methods of operation (dispatch locations etc.) there is simply no way that TfW's wildly excessive caution is justified, and that every other operator with local door ops is acting dangerously and irresponsibly. If nothing else you'd have expected the unions to kick up a fuss about it otherwise!
Symptomatic of the whole approach to COVID though isn't it.
My barber insists upon customers wearing a mask, sanitising hands (even though they touch nothing), disposable aprons, temperature check upon arrival with one of those useless forehead scanners ("32 degrees, perfect" - err, I should be dead love :lol: )and the staff wear masks AND face shields.
My fathers barber just cuts his hair without any of that nonsense.

Supermarkets are another. Tesco seem the most sensible - masks but only because "it's the law" and gallons of alcohol rub available. Others with door marshals, one way systems (which I've always thought *increase" risk), customer *must* have a trolly etc.

How we unravel from all of this hysteria is a concern. I am hopeful when I walk into "no-public" workplaces like offices and see complete normality, no mass, no distancing, no fuss. And I still remember that the day beofre the mask mandate came in perhaps only 5% of people in my local Tesco wore them, so I thin the silent majority like me can't wait for the day we cut the c**p.
 
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scrapy

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It's also very different because most flights are now only taking passengers who have had a PCR test in the 48 hours before travelling and that has returned a negative result. One of my relatives who works with vulnerable people has regular PCR tests, one week last year he got a positive result despite feeling fine and a few days later he was so ill he couldn't even get out of bed. The PCR testing will likely prevent most instances of someone developing symptoms while on a flight, the empty rows of seats is just an insurance policy to protect other passengers if they worst happens.

You say the passenger showing symptoms should be removed from the train straight away, so hypothetically a passenger who lives in Lancaster who is travelling back home from Manchester and starts showing symptoms just after the train has left Wigan you think the train should be stopped at Leyland so the infected passenger can be removed. However, unless that passenger is so sick that the guard has arranged for an ambulance to meet the train, what happens to the passenger next? They need to get back home to self-isolate so throwing them off the train is likely just going to get up in a taxi driver getting infected, when if they had remained on a train and were isolated from the other passengers they are less likely to pass the virus on to others. Even if an ambulance has been arranged it might be the ambulance workers can't remove the passenger until they've done certain checks.



Are there not instances where guards have to walk through entire carriages to release doors if the train is longer than the platform it's stopping at?
In reality a person is very unlikely to suddenly develop symptoms en route. Usually with this type of things you wake up in a morning and feel unwell rather than suddenly thinking I've got covid between two stations. You're unlikely to suddenly think 'my temperature is 37.8 degrees whilst on a train'. Even if you develop a persistent cough it will probably start off as the odd cough and most people at this point would not get on a train.

If symptoms were to suddenly appear, I'd say unless obvious to others such as a cough, a passenger is unlikely to contact a guard and say I've got a high temperature they will probably just keep quiet until they get off. If someones symptoms appear so quickly then and the guard is aware then it would be paramount for the guard to get them off the train as quickly as possible for the safety of everyone on board. I know Northern have arrangements with taxi companies to transport staff who need to isolate mid shift back to depots using sealed passenger compartments.

As for where staff need to work train from specific doors on the 195/331s the guard can either work the train from that area for the full journey (this is usually the 4th coach on a 6 car formation), or make their way to the required vestibule via the platform at the station before and temporarily cordon that area off remain their until the station after and walk back along the platform.

At the end of the day it's about minimising risk not completely eliminating it. A guard has 8-10 hours a day on a train (no passengers do that on a daily basis), they will have close contact during that shift it's part of the job and necessary at times, but if they can only come into close contact (within a metre) with 20 passengers during that shift rather than maybe 500 if there was no protective procedures in place then it's minimising the risk, and Northern as their employer have a legal duty to do this.

There is not yet any government advice to say that those who've been vaccinated no longer have to social distance in the workplace, there is government advice that still says that employers have to make provision for all employees to be able to social distance in the workplace, and those measures are stricter for thise who are vunerable and extremely vunerable. If government advice in the workplace changes on May 17th or June 21st then I'd expect Northern to alter their work methods accordingly but they cannot do this just because trains are busier. I don't think Northern management want areas cordened off for longer than necessary.
 
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Jamesrob637

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And I still remember that the day beofre the mask mandate came in perhaps only 5% of people in my local Tesco wore them, so I thin the silent majority like me can't wait for the day we cut the c**p.

5% of people of which 3-4% probably wore them even pre-COVID! You did see people in masks pre-COVID, just not very many.
 

bengley

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5% of people of which 3-4% probably wore them even pre-COVID! You did see people in masks pre-COVID, just not very many.
I never saw anyone wearing a mask, ever pre-COVID with the exception of a couple of asians every so often, but even that was only a handful of times in my life.
 

peters

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In reality a person is very unlikely to suddenly develop symptoms en route.

I can't comment on COVID but I have had viruses which have come on suddenly during the day, in one case feeling normal in the morning by the afternoon finding I couldn't speak.

If symptoms were to suddenly appear, I'd say unless obvious to others such as a cough, a passenger is unlikely to contact a guard

And there's a difference between rail and aviation, on the latter passengers are told to advise on board staff immediately if they develop symptoms, on rail it seems to a case of it's not our problem if a passenger develops symptoms.

At the end of the day it's about minimising risk not completely eliminating it. A guard has 8-10 hours a day on a train (no passengers do that on a daily basis), they will have close contact during that shift it's part of the job and necessary at times, but if they can only come into close contact (within a metre) with 20 passengers during that shift rather than maybe 500 if there was no protective procedures in place then it's minimising the risk, and Northern as their employer have a legal duty to do this.

One of the routes which gets the new trains is Manchester Airport to Barrow/Windermere, if we say for simplicity one guard does Manchester Airport to Preston and then working the next southbound service, then they have to open doors 12 times and close them 12 times in around 2.5 hours, then they would presumably have a break before doing any further work. So if we say on average that's 1.5 minutes per station that means 18 minutes of exposure to passengers during 3 hours or more of their shift. Then that presumes having the entire train open to passengers would result in passengers sat in every part of the train for the entire journey.

There is not yet any government advice to say that those who've been vaccinated no longer have to social distance in the workplace, there is government advice that still says that employers have to make provision for all employees to be able to social distance in the workplace, and those measures are stricter for thise who are vunerable and extremely vunerable. If government advice in the workplace changes on May 17th or June 21st then I'd expect Northern to alter their work methods accordingly but they cannot do this just because trains are busier. I don't think Northern management want areas cordened off for longer than necessary.

Part of the reason for those who have vaccinated still being told to socially distance is because they are more likely to be carrying the virus without realising they are a carrier. It's just as much to protect those who aren't vaccinated as protecting those who are vaccinated against the extremely rare instances of those who are vaccinated getting serious symptoms.

I never saw anyone wearing a mask, ever pre-COVID with the exception of a couple of asians every so often, but even that was only a handful of times in my life.

I suppose it depends whether @Jamesrob637 really means pre-COVID or whether he means pre-COVID restrictions which make it mandatory to wear face coverings. COVID was circulating in the UK in Feb 2020 but we were allowed to carry on as normal, although a small number of people wore masks.

I noticed at Manchester Piccadilly, particularly at platforms 13 and 14 it's commonplace to see a few people of Asian origin wearing masks even pre-COVID. However, the last time I went into Manchester in early March 2020 I noticed that had extended to some people who are walking around in outdoor, pedestrained parts of the city centre.
 

peters

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My barber insists upon customers wearing a mask, sanitising hands (even though they touch nothing), disposable aprons, temperature check upon arrival with one of those useless forehead scanners ("32 degrees, perfect" - err, I should be dead love :lol: )and the staff wear masks AND face shields.
My fathers barber just cuts his hair without any of that nonsense.

When barbers reopened after the first lockdown the guidance was customers don't need to wear masks and barbers should wear a face shield. Then the government decided to change the guidance so everyone should wear masks and the customer should only remove it if it is necessary for the barber to cut the hair close to their ears. Although, it's fine to have a 10 minute dental appointment where not only are you not wearing a mask but you have your mouth wide open most of the time, as long as the dentist and dental nurse have medical grade masks.
 

HSTEd

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I hesitate to say anything because I know it is a very touchy topic on this forum, but as it is likely that restrictions like this will be in place periodically from now on for the forseable future.

We do have to consider these operational realities in terms of the future of staffing on the railway.

I hope that is vague enough not to bring people down on me!
 

trebor79

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5% of people of which 3-4% probably wore them even pre-COVID! You did see people in masks pre-COVID, just not very many.
Nope, never. Occasionally you'd see someone clearly visiting from Asia wearing one in the tube. Never saw anyone wearing in the supermarket.
I hesitate to say anything because I know it is a very touchy topic on this forum, but as it is likely that restrictions like this will be in place periodically from now on for the forseable future.
I'm mildly optimistic mandatory masks etc will be gone next month when the government removes all remaining restrictions as promised.
 

Jamesrob637

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I can't comment on COVID but I have had viruses which have come on suddenly during the day, in one case feeling normal in the morning by the afternoon finding I couldn't speak.



And there's a difference between rail and aviation, on the latter passengers are told to advise on board staff immediately if they develop symptoms, on rail it seems to a case of it's not our problem if a passenger develops symptoms.



One of the routes which gets the new trains is Manchester Airport to Barrow/Windermere, if we say for simplicity one guard does Manchester Airport to Preston and then working the next southbound service, then they have to open doors 12 times and close them 12 times in around 2.5 hours, then they would presumably have a break before doing any further work. So if we say on average that's 1.5 minutes per station that means 18 minutes of exposure to passengers during 3 hours or more of their shift. Then that presumes having the entire train open to passengers would result in passengers sat in every part of the train for the entire journey.



Part of the reason for those who have vaccinated still being told to socially distance is because they are more likely to be carrying the virus without realising they are a carrier. It's just as much to protect those who aren't vaccinated as protecting those who are vaccinated against the extremely rare instances of those who are vaccinated getting serious symptoms.



I suppose it depends whether @Jamesrob637 really means pre-COVID or whether he means pre-COVID restrictions which make it mandatory to wear face coverings. COVID was circulating in the UK in Feb 2020 but we were allowed to carry on as normal, although a small number of people wore masks.

I noticed at Manchester Piccadilly, particularly at platforms 13 and 14 it's commonplace to see a few people of Asian origin wearing masks even pre-COVID. However, the last time I went into Manchester in early March 2020 I noticed that had extended to some people who are walking around in outdoor, pedestrained parts of the city centre.

Yes at the very beginning in March/April when queues at the supermarket were the norm, even at quieter times.
 

peters

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I'm mildly optimistic mandatory masks etc will be gone next month when the government removes all remaining restrictions as promised.

I don't trust Boris' government as much as you and I think when he says he plans to remove government imposed restrictions he means all businesses will be allowed to open and events will be allowed to take part. I don't think he'll say everywhere can open at maximum capacity and people can attend events without any masks, social distancing or pre-event testing. Since Boris said a late June removal date for all restrictions, he made a change to legislation allowing the government to enforce social distancing and face covering wearing until September if needed.

Getting back on to the rail topic if events go ahead which require proof of negative test prior to entry, then I would presume some of the people attending these events will travel by rail, which will increase passenger numbers. It will also be difficult for Northern to say most of a carriage is out-of-use to protect the guard and to leave people on the platform unable to board when they have proof of negative COVID tests.
 

Kite159

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When barbers reopened after the first lockdown the guidance was customers don't need to wear masks and barbers should wear a face shield. Then the government decided to change the guidance so everyone should wear masks and the customer should only remove it if it is necessary for the barber to cut the hair close to their ears. Although, it's fine to have a 10 minute dental appointment where not only are you not wearing a mask but you have your mouth wide open most of the time, as long as the dentist and dental nurse have medical grade masks.

And in the case of my dentist, you sign pieces of paper to say you understand the risks & get temperatured checked
 

scrapy

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I don't trust Boris' government as much as you and I think when he says he plans to remove government imposed restrictions he means all businesses will be allowed to open and events will be allowed to take part. I don't think he'll say everywhere can open at maximum capacity and people can attend events without any masks, social distancing or pre-event testing. Since Boris said a late June removal date for all restrictions, he made a change to legislation allowing the government to enforce social distancing and face coverings.

Getting back on to the rail topic if events go ahead which require proof of negative test prior to entry, then I would presume some of the people attending these events will travel by rail, which will increase passenger numbers. It will also be difficult for Northern to say most of a carriage is out-of-use to protect the guard and to leave people on the platform unable to board when they have proof of negative COVID tests.
I you, many others and me to some extent are against what the government says, however as an employer Northern do still have to comply with government advice whether they agree with it or not as the current recommendations for transport workers is that wherever possible they remain 1m plus from others. Failure to make provision to do that would breach the health and safety at work act. How do you propose Northern work these trains and comply with legislation and give you what you want given that Northern l have taken legal advice and taken advice of consultants and experts in the industry looking for an alternative?

I would add that I am totally opposed to areas of a train being cordonned off for no reason. Yesterday I was on a Northern service (6 car 331) and in the front set there were areas cordened off for no apparent reason with the guard in the rear. On a TPE service today(185) the area at the front and back between the cabs and first vestibule was cordenned off despite the guard not leaving the cab.
 
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peters

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How do you propose Northern work these trains and comply with legislation and give you what you want given that Northern l have taken legal advice and taken advice of consultants and experts in the industry looking for an alternative?

Presumably that risk assessment is based on any passenger potentially carrying COVID. As there's a possibly they'll be large numbers of people trying to board trains with proof of a recent negative test, for the purpose of travelling to an event which requires it, then the Northern risk assessment needs to factor in if the risk of a guard getting COVID after coming into contact with one of those passengers is probably less likely than the guard breaking a limb while getting on and off the train.

The tricky bit is how to ensure that only passengers with the negative COVID tests are the ones which sit in what are classed as the 'high risk' areas for the guard, unless they decide the risk of now so low anyway that they can just remove the restrictions. I'm sure Northern employ people who can work on how to resolve that. If they don't want to sell tickets and then to immediately have to issue refunds because they won't allow passengers on board then they will have to come up with something. Look at how quickly retail adopted changes at the start of the pandemic, those plastic screens to protect staff appeared almost overnight when normally changes take months to implement.
 

Kite159

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On a TPE service today(185) the area at the front and back between the cabs and first vestibule was cordenned off despite the guard not leaving the cab.

I've seen in the past the seats behind the cab at the standard class end were roped off for staff use (similar to GWR with the Turbos out of Bristol).
 

bengley

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I you, many others and me to some extent are against what the government says, however as an employer Northern do still have to comply with government advice whether they agree with it or not as the current recommendations for transport workers is that wherever possible they remain 1m plus from others. Failure to make provision to do that would breach the health and safety at work act. How do you propose Northern work these trains and comply with legislation and give you what you want given that Northern l have taken legal advice and taken advice of consultants and experts in the industry looking for an alternative?

I would add that I am totally opposed to areas of a train being cordonned off for no reason. Yesterday I was on a Northern service (6 car 331) and in the front set there were areas cordened off for no apparent reason with the guard in the rear. On a TPE service today(185) the area at the front and back between the cabs and first vestibule was cordenned off despite the guard not leaving the cab.
The areas roped off on 185s are not for the guard, they are for train crew travelling pass
 

HSTEd

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If we expect restrictions like this to be in place long term, or to possibly be reimposed at short notice for years, something will have to be done to mitigate this.

We can't have carriages running around all day that passengers can't use.
 

trebor79

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If we expect restrictions like this to be in place long term, or to possibly be reimposed at short notice for years, something will have to be done to mitigate this.

We can't have carriages running around all day that passengers can't use.
I don't expect this situation to persist. Vaccination ends COVID as a public health crisis, and all measures should be repealed once that programme is largely complete.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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I don't expect this situation to persist. Vaccination ends COVID as a public health crisis, and all measures should be repealed once that programme is largely complete.
The face coverings rules don't change from 17th May and the government has yet to define what 21st June will look like but Boris indicated he would providing that advice towards end of this month. Furthermore at Mondays press conference Valence responded to a question about what future restrictions might be needed with "for instance if we see an upsurge in cases in the Autumn we may to reintroduce face masks onto public transport". So this potentially indicates that current thinking is they won't be mandated on public transport post 21st June but that may exacerbate the current situation in the eyes of those undertaking risk assessments. So whether govt provides any formal advice to transport operators may get overridden by the Covid fear factor and when you have large outbreaks still occurring across Northern operating area, particularly NW, its risk that will need assessing. So in reality keeping masks mandated may do more for capacity until we are deemed Covid free ie for ever!!
 

peters

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The face coverings rules don't change from 17th May and the government has yet to define what 21st June will look like but Boris indicated he would providing that advice towards end of this month. Furthermore at Mondays press conference Valence responded to a question about what future restrictions might be needed with "for instance if we see an upsurge in cases in the Autumn we may to reintroduce face masks onto public transport". So this potentially indicates that current thinking is they won't be mandated on public transport post 21st June but that may exacerbate the current situation in the eyes of those undertaking risk assessments. So whether govt provides any formal advice to transport operators may get overridden by the Covid fear factor and when you have large outbreaks still occurring across Northern operating area, particularly NW, its risk that will need assessing. So in reality keeping masks mandated may do more for capacity until we are deemed Covid free ie for ever!!

There could also be a middle ground option of on busy public transport services face coverings are recommended but on quieter services they are deemed unnecessary.
 

HSTEd

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I don't expect this situation to persist. Vaccination ends COVID as a public health crisis, and all measures should be repealed once that programme is largely complete.
Ofcourse even if the legal restrictions are dropped entirely, which I am not expecting any time soon.

The unions may simply threaten to strike unless the railways keep all this in place.
 

Welly

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I have travelled by train for the first time since last July (for my first haircut since that day!) and went out in a 195 then back home in a 158 - only the 158 had a couple of rows marked off for social distancing of the train staff and I have not noticed any segregation of seats on the 195. Mind you both trains were SOOO much nicer than the late unlamented Pacers dispite their faults.
 

trebor79

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Ofcourse even if the legal restrictions are dropped entirely, which I am not expecting any time soon.

The unions may simply threaten to strike unless the railways keep all this in place.
In that case the unions will soon be negotiating redundancy terms for their members, as people will simply not accept being crammed into one half of a train and forced to wear face coverings and will find other modes of transport. Or trains will go DOO so the capacity can be released.
Aside from that, it's clearly ridiculously expensive to provide entire or half coaches just for the guard to not sit it.
 

Islineclear3_1

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And there's a difference between rail and aviation, on the latter passengers are told to advise on board staff immediately if they develop symptoms, on rail it seems to a case of it's not our problem if a passenger develops symptoms.
Yes, but on a train, a potentially ill passenger can just get off at the next station. You can't do that on a plane
If we expect restrictions like this to be in place long term, or to possibly be reimposed at short notice for years, something will have to be done to mitigate this.

We can't have carriages running around all day that passengers can't use.
I wish this practice would stop on my TOC. Very common to have 4 vice 8 or 8 with one carriage locked out of use for the guard meaning nobody can walk through the train
 

peters

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Yes, but on a train, a potentially ill passenger can just get off at the next station. You can't do that on a plane

As I asked in a later post, what does that passenger do if they get off at say Leyland when they live in Lancaster? It's one thing for a passenger to be removed to be taken to hospital or if they are feeling sick/faint and might feel better after some fresh air but if they might be ill for days and need to get back to Lancaster then the passenger getting off at Leyland is just going to expose others to the virus instead e.g. a taxi driver.
 

LowLevel

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I don't get it really. We had the first few weeks/month or so of the first lockdown when I think everyone really was rather worried not knowing what was happening and so on where we were told not to walk the train at all apart from occasional security checks but given there was a generous handful at most people on board that made no real difference.

Since then revenue duties have been pulled twice but came back OK with no notable issues and at no point on our 15x/170 trains have there been carriages or even seats sealed off for staff.

As far as I am aware there has been no significant impact in terms of additional breakouts of disease as a result.

It is much better to get on with it as the fear is worse than the doing. A friend of mine was clinically extremely vulnerable and it got to the point where he had effectively talked himself by his own admission into a being a hermit out of fear. He is now back enjoying life again.

I've not been vaccinated yet though I will be as soon as possible.

I find it even more daft because most Northern guards I've seen have been dodging bits of tape etc to do the doors and then plunging into the train quite cheerfully to do tickets.
 

Bantamzen

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I don't get it really. We had the first few weeks/month or so of the first lockdown when I think everyone really was rather worried not knowing what was happening and so on where we were told not to walk the train at all apart from occasional security checks but given there was a generous handful at most people on board that made no real difference.

Since then revenue duties have been pulled twice but came back OK with no notable issues and at no point on our 15x/170 trains have there been carriages or even seats sealed off for staff.

As far as I am aware there has been no significant impact in terms of additional breakouts of disease as a result.

It is much better to get on with it as the fear is worse than the doing. A friend of mine was clinically extremely vulnerable and it got to the point where he had effectively talked himself by his own admission into a being a hermit out of fear. He is now back enjoying life again.

I've not been vaccinated yet though I will be as soon as possible.

I find it even more daft because most Northern guards I've seen have been dodging bits of tape etc to do the doors and then plunging into the train quite cheerfully to do tickets.
Or better still on the 333s on the Aire/Wharfe triangle they duck under the cloth dividers on each end & then often walk to one of the middle cars to dispatch....
 

trainophile

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Has anyone actually seen whole coaches locked out of use in the last few days? I ask because I responded to a BTP Northern tweet about a week ago saying they are doing everything to keep us safe, to suggest that if they mean that they could start by getting the 'whole coach blocked off' situation removed. Since then I haven't seen this in practice, although I haven't been on Northern trains in the relevant area recently (mostly around Wigan lines), but have used lots of them Hartlepool-Saltburn-Middlesbrough, and none of them were operating like this.
 

Welly

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Has anyone actually seen whole coaches locked out of use in the last few days? I ask because I responded to a BTP Northern tweet about a week ago saying they are doing everything to keep us safe, to suggest that if they mean that they could start by getting the 'whole coach blocked off' situation removed. Since then I haven't seen this in practice, although I haven't been on Northern trains in the relevant area recently (mostly around Wigan lines), but have used lots of them Hartlepool-Saltburn-Middlesbrough, and none of them were operating like this.
No, not this morning when I used the service to Lincoln and back.
 

Bishopstone

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Are GWR still locking-out the First Class driving vehicles in the 800s, for crew and wheelchair customer use only?
 
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