2 minutes silence today

[Schnellzug]

I always remember being on a bus in Sunderland and the driver pulled over in between stops, turned the engine off stepped out of the cab (standing room only on the bus by the way) asked the whole bus to stand up for 2 minutes silence then at the end said a short prayer and thanked everyone for listening.

Turned out he received a MBE for services to public transport

It said on their wesbsite that Wilts & Dorset would pull over, where at all practical, at 1100. And one Nov 11 I was on a Metroline bus in N. London and he pulled over and switched off the engine for two minutes. Given that this wa a bus from Potters Bars garage, this was rather daring of him, I thought, but it did start again.

I couldnt find anyone selling the poppies anywhere, not even at the local supermarket, then again when I'm at the supermarket I get tunnel vision.

No, i didn't see a single person selling them in the street either; they did have them in shops, including a popular high street newsagent chain and a well known chain of coffee shoppes named after a Roman emperor.

 

[Minilad]

No, i didn't see a single person selling them in the street either; they did have them in shops, including a popular high street newsagent chain and a well known chain of coffee shoppes named after a Roman emperor.

Ah yes. The famous Emperor Starbuck.

I was alone in my house at 11.00 so wasn't hard for me to observe the silence. But if I had been out and about I would have anyway.
Not really a poppy wearer to be honest and I am not quite sure why we are starting to get some faux outrage in the media about not wearing them (England team today for example)

 

[pendolino]

There was a short service of remembrance and wreath laying at the Memorial - commemorating the LB&SCR and SR employees who lost their lives in the two world wars - at Victoria today (as every year). As it took place during my PNB I took the time to attend along with quite a few other staff and members of the public, and found it quite moving. Wreaths were laid by representatives from Southern, Southeastern, Network Rail and BTP.

 

[Crossover]

Didn't manage the 2 min silence on Friday as the office I was in at the time was still a hive of activity, though I did manage a minute. Was at a local service today though where I was able to observe the 2 minute silence and I am still wearing my poppy

 

[valenta]

On Friday the whole of the Tyne and Wear metro stopped to observe two minutes silence at 11:00.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . and the right not to be dictated to - which includes the freedom of not having to keep a 2 min silence.

I'd guess that you haven't lost many loved ones, then, lost in their prime and leaving you with an ache of emptiness and still asking "why" even though you know 'why'?, even long after the grief has subsided?
I'd guess you don't find a tear comes to your eye on this day, even though you knew that it was not going to affect you like that.
I'd guess you don't find some comfort in sharing your feeling with others, even though the only thing you share is a little nothing, a little 'silence'. Just a few moments gives that comfort.

 

[All Line Rover]

I'd guess that you haven't lost many loved ones, then, lost in their prime and leaving you with an ache of emptiness and still asking "why" even though you know 'why'?, even long after the grief has subsided?
I'd guess you don't find a tear comes to your eye on this day, even though you knew that it was not going to affect you like that.
I'd guess you don't find some comfort in sharing your feeling with others, even though the only thing you share is a little nothing, a little 'silence'. Just a few moments gives that comfort.

I think it is unreasonable to demand that someone participate in Armistice Day and Remembrance Day by "thinking about those who have died" during the two minute silence and/or wearing a poppy (some may not wish to participate - I being one, for example!) but at the same time, I think it is rude, offensive and arrogant for someone to completely ignore the two minute silence and/or talk through it when in the company of others.

Also, even if someone such as "313103" did not want to participate, I still think it is appropriate for all train guards (and anyone else who is working in the public eye!) to announce that it is 11am and remain quiet for two minutes so as to allow those who do want to observe the two minute silence to observe it.

I remain neutral on this matter, but was slightly annoyed when I was told at college last week "you must wear a poppy," and that I was "forced" to attend a service. I did not do either, as I thought it was better not to attend the service than to attend it and not participate (even though I would have still remained silent for two minutes).

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I think it is unreasonable to demand that someone participate in Armistice Day and Remembrance Day by "thinking about those who have died" during the two minute silence and/or wearing a poppy (some may not wish to participate - I being one, for example!) but at the same time, I think it is rude, offensive and arrogant for someone to completely ignore the two minute silence and/or talk through it when in the company of others.

Also, even if someone such as "313103" did not want to participate, I still think it is appropriate for all train guards (and anyone else who is working in the public eye!) to announce that it is 11am and remain quiet for two minutes so as to allow those who do want to observe the two minute silence to observe it.

I remain neutral on this matter, but was slightly annoyed when I was told at college last week "you must wear a poppy," and that I was "forced" to attend a service. I did not do either, as I thought it was better not to attend the service than to attend it and not participate (even though I would have still remained silent for two minutes).

Mind me asking why you don't wear a poppy?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I just want to add this thought:-
There is something particularly lonely about being a parent who looses a child (far beyond the difficult but manageable 'loss' when a child leaves home).

We don't even have a word for it.
Loose a spouse and we're a Widow or Widower, loose a parent and we're an Orphan, but loose a child and we're left indescribable, nameless, knowing all that we have suffered, loved, given and enjoyed is ended; knowing that all they they had hoped for their future and the others anticipating that future share your loss.

A little silence doesn't need to be asked for, but isn't it so easy to give it? A moments thought for others who've gone, who could so easily have been ourselves, and those left behind with no name for their loss?

[No, I've lost many close to me, but have not lost a child myself]

 

[Ivo]

I just want to add this thought:-
There is something particularly lonely about being a parent who looses a child (far beyond the difficult but manageable 'loss' when a child leaves home).

We don't even have a word for it.
Loose a spouse and we're a Widow or Widower, loose a parent and we're an Orphan, but loose a child and we're left indescribable, nameless, knowing all that we have suffered, loved, given and enjoyed is ended; knowing that all they they had hoped for their future and the others anticipating that future share your loss.

A little silence doesn't need to be asked for, but isn't it so easy to give it? A moments thought for others who've gone, who could so easily have been ourselves, and those left behind with no name for their loss?

[No, I've lost many close to me, but have not lost a child myself]

Well put. Even the most outspoken or hyperactive individual can go two minutes without making so much as an utterance; it's not as though it's a prerequisite for human life.

 

[Pumbaa]

Mind me asking why you don't wear a poppy?

Personally I don't wear a poppy as the Royal British Legion still defines Remembrance Sunday, the Poppy appeal and the Remembrance Poppy as "commemorating" the dead, and they define themselves as the custodians of remembrance. I feel uneasy about the latter - I feel it should be a personal matter and choice.

It is the "commemoration" that I don't like. I do not wish to commemorate any act of war, even the fallen, and instead I remember the fallen for their ultimate sacrifices. As such I observe the 2 minutes, I pay my respects at any memorial I see but I make a conscious effort not to wear a poppy. Even if it does sometime result in abuse on the street!

 

[All Line Rover]

DELETED

This post is unnecessary as I have better explained my viewpoint in post #49.

 

[GB]

You say that your post is overly simplistic and it is, and you say you hope not to offend but sorry chap you have.

But, you are welcome to your views and opinions...lucky to live in such a country that affords them eh!

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Personally I don't wear a poppy as the Royal British Legion still defines Remembrance Sunday, the Poppy appeal and the Remembrance Poppy as "commemorating" the dead, and they define themselves as the custodians of remembrance. I feel uneasy about the latter - I feel it should be a personal matter and choice.

It is the "commemoration" that I don't like. I do not wish to commemorate any act of war, even the fallen, and instead I remember the fallen for their ultimate sacrifices. As such I observe the 2 minutes, I pay my respects at any memorial I see but I make a conscious effort not to wear a poppy. Even if it does sometime result in abuse on the street!

My thoughts exactly. If people want to wear a poppy, then that's fine by me (personally I wear a white one if possible, but they are hard to get hold of, so I usually wear a Haig). If people want to observe a 2 minutes silence, then that's fine by me. I will observe a two minutes silence for the same reasons as you (and indeed did today, and on the 11th).

 

[scotsman]

ALR, what the hell are you on about? You seem to have missed the point, somewhat...

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I'll take this from the top:

The poppy symbolyses the poppy fields which now stand upon the land where WW1 took place, they have no bearing upon WW2 or any wars since.

It is not about celebrating British greatness / victory, it is about remembering those who paid the ultimate penalty dying for out freedom.

As for not starting WW2, there really was no other option. Nothing would stop Hitler, indeed we were fully behind him until a certain Mr Churchill realised his darker side and was kicked out of the Cabinet for protesting. Hitler wasn't the man to sit down to talks or treaties (indeed the Treaty of Versailles was the only reason he got into politics). Put short, if there was no WW2 we would have been in deep trouble, and unless you could prove back six generations to show that you weren't Jewish, you wouldn't have been around to see any of it. I do not support wars many modern wars, but in the cases of WW1 and WW2, I feel there was little other option.

 

[All Line Rover]

ALR, what the hell are you on about? You seem to have missed the point, somewhat...

Could you please explain what point I have missed then.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'll take this from the top:
It is not about celebrating British greatness / victory, it is about remembering those who paid the ultimate penalty dying for out freedom.

As for not starting WW2, there really was no other option. Nothing would stop Hitler, indeed we were fully behind him until a certain Mr Churchill realised his darker side and was kicked out of the Cabinet for protesting. Hitler wasn't the man to sit down to talks or treaties (indeed the Treaty of Versailles was the only reason he got into politics). Put short, if there was no WW2 we would have been in deep trouble, and unless you could prove back six generations to show that you weren't Jewish, you wouldn't have been around to see any of it. I do not support wars many modern wars, but in the cases of WW1 and WW2, I feel there was little other option.

I understand your viewpoint. Hitler was a nutcase, as were many others. But neither the German population nor British population nor any other population HAD to go to war (some individuals didn't, many of which died because of their decision). As I do not support war, I cannot commemorate the lives of those who did go to war. I know that that is a very idealistic view, but we are all entitled to them.

 

[Schnellzug]

[Mod note - Content Deleted]

But that's not what it's about. it's not, whatever the Sun might like to say, about commemmeorating Victory. It's just as much about iraq and Afghanistan as WWI or II, and there's not much in the way of Victory to celebrate there.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I understand your viewpoint. Hitler was a nutcase, as were many others. But neither the German population nor British population nor any other population HAD to go to war (some individuals didn't, many of which died because of their decision). As I do not support war, I cannot commemorate the lives of those who did go to war. I know that that is a very idealistic view, but we are all entitled to them.

Sorry, are you saying that those who went to war- who were conscripted into the forces - were wrong for doing so? That they should have all become Conscientious Objecters? So does the same applies to the Germans as well? Because unless the Germans had all done likewise- and with the machinery of the Nazi state behind them to coerce them, there wasn't much chance of that - well, someone had to. I don't think Conscientious Objection was much of an option in Hitler's Germany, unless you wanted to see what Buchenwald was like from the inside.

 

[All Line Rover]

But that's not what it's about. it's not, whatever the Sun might like to say, about commemmeorating Victory. It's just as much about iraq and Afghanistan as WWI or II, and there's not much in the way of Victory to celebrate there.

I know that. I will try to summarize my long post in two short paragraphs then:

1. I do not support war of any kind. I would not / will not participate in any war. (I'd probably be dead, but I prefer that to killing someone else!). So because of this, I feel that I cannot commemorate the lives of those who died participating in war. If everyone was of my opinion, then we wouldn't have any wars - I know that's idealistic, but I'm happy with my opinion.

2. As far as I am aware, Remembrance Sunday is "to commemorate the contribution of British and Commonwealth military and civilian servicemen and women in the two World Wars and later conflicts." I feel that that is a bit selfish as it does not commemorate the lives of innocent people of other nationalities who died in these wars. For example, many innocent civilians in Iraq have died because of the war there. Even some supposed "enemies" such as German soldiers who participated in WW2 may not have wanted to participate in the war, but were forced to. Whether a minority or majority of German soldiers were of this viewpoint, I cannot say.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Sorry, are you saying that those who went to war- who were conscripted into the forces - were wrong for doing so? That they should have all become Conscientious Objecters? So does the same applies to the Germans as well? Because unless the Germans had all done likewise- and with the machinery of the Nazi state behind them to coerce them, there wasn't much chance of that - well, someone had to. I don't think Conscientious Objection was much of an option in Hitler's Germany, unless you wanted to see what Buchenwald was like from the inside.

Yes - if everyone was a conscientious objector, we wouldn't have any wars. I know it's idealistic, but I am happy with that viewpoint. If another war broke out, I would be a conscientious objector, even if it meant my death! I hope people can appreciate and respect my viewpoint, just like I appreciate and respect the viewpoint of those who participate in Remembrance Day and the two minute silence.

 

[deltic]

I'd guess that you haven't lost many loved ones, then, lost in their prime and leaving you with an ache of emptiness and still asking "why" even though you know 'why'?, even long after the grief has subsided?
I'd guess you don't find a tear comes to your eye on this day, even though you knew that it was not going to affect you like that.
I'd guess you don't find some comfort in sharing your feeling with others, even though the only thing you share is a little nothing, a little 'silence'. Just a few moments gives that comfort.

My father was in the RAF during the war and my father in law was on the Normandy beaches on D-Day. My son wishes to join the army and I have buried 2 daughters (nothing to do with war). A close friend has been in Iraq, Sierra Leone and Afghanistan. So I know what war and death is about.

My issue is that as on the BBC it has become also compulsory to wear a poppy in certain circumstances - and to keep a 2 minute silence. The fiasco about England wearing poppies for the match against Spain shows what the issue is all about, political grandstanding.

Wearing a poppy and keeping a silence is a personal decision not something you should feel pressured to do so - and I always a wear one - because I want to not because I feel I have to.

 

[GB]

Germany (and others) have their own equivalent of remembrance day.

 

[WestCoast]

It was interesting for me to hear the viewpoint of a (British) friend who works in the Republic of Ireland, he chose not to wear a poppy to work because he felt that some people in the office would not appreciate it (although they wouldn't say anything).

Germany (and others) have their own equivalent of remembrance day.

Today in Germany is Volkstrauertag - the day of national mourning. It commemorates those who died in war and victims of violent oppression by past governments, regardless of nationality.

 

[Schnellzug]

Yes - if everyone was a conscientious objector, we wouldn't have any wars. I know it's idealistic, but I am happy with that viewpoint. If another war broke out, I would be a conscientious objector, even if it meant my death! I hope people can appreciate and respect my viewpoint, just like I appreciate and respect the viewpoint of those who participate in Remembrance Day and the two minute silence.

I admire your principles, believe me I do, but I honestly think that the option for everyone in Germany to have been a conscientious objector was a non-starter, and as long as there was a NSDAP then i'm afraid that that was one war that had to be.

 

[All Line Rover]

I admire your principles, believe me I do, but I honestly think that the option for everyone in Germany to have been a conscientious objector was a non-starter, and as long as there was a NSDAP then i'm afraid that that was one war that had to be.

Well that is unfortunate, but if I had been alive at the time, I would genuinely have preferred to die than kill other humans. There you have it!

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Well that is unfortunate, but if I had been alive at the time, I would genuinely have preferred to die than kill other humans. There you have it!

Well if you were in Germany someone would have killed you before you had the chance to do it yourself.

 

[WestCoast]

Well if you were in Germany someone would have killed you before you had the chance to do it yourself.

Well that is unfortunate, but if I had been alive at the time, I would genuinely have preferred to die than kill other humans. There you have it!

Absolutely, there was no choice to be made. No disrespect to ALR, but Nazi Germany was a completely oppressive regime, they did unspeakable things to those who would not conform to their demands. A young person wouldn't have a voice as an individual either, your objection would impact on your family as well. It's a very real story for me, since my grandmother grew up there before and during WW2 and she has many extremely painful and upsetting memories of that time. To call the people weak willed or whatever is highly disrespectful (not that anybody is necessarily doing that) if you ask me.

In any case, I do think that Poppy wearing should be left to the individual. I do wear one, but if someone chose not to, I don't think a fuss should be made.

 

[newbie babs]

As an ex service woman, daughter of ex service man, sister of ex serviceman and an ex service wife and mother of a serving son.

It is a personal choice to why you remember take the day to remember or Don`t take part in wearing a poppy or the service today. For me I have lost many friends and family and I know for the younger son of the two that went to serve in Basra together, he remembers not only those friends he lost and still may but also the Iraq people that died.

I have been lucky to live in Germany for 4 years before the Berlin wall came down and I lived among the German people and learned from them what they thought.

No one makes you wear a poppy, we are lucky to be allowed to make that decision. I respect all opinions on the thread because each of us look at it differently for many reasons

 

[Hydro]

As always, a very emotive subject. I personally observe all of the traditions. Regardless of ideals, volunteers and conscripts alike shed the same blood on the same battlefields. Your man on the ground is in service, and will do whatever bidding is required of him with the risk that he may one day never return home to his family and home.

I don't think less of people who don't wear poppies. The freedom of choice was in part paid for with the lives of civilians, soldiers, sailors and airmen; to waste such a hard fought for ideal would do their sacrifice a disservice. An act of rememberance can be a very personal thing. I've never fully agreed with "commemoration" or "celebration". A couple of minutes of reflection, silence and respect costs nothing; for without people who stand in harms way in service and lay down their lives, I may not have been able to write this, or live my life as I do.

 

[AlterEgo]

This is the first year I haven't bought a poppy.

I choose not to do so for a few reasons:

1) Money from the sale of poppies goes to the Royal British Legion. They exist to provide support to ex-service men and women. The vast majority of the RBL's money is now spent on men and women who chose to enlist in the military, for a job. I don't believe that those men and women should be without support, but I believe that support should come from the military (and by extension the Government) itself. Those men and women have generally not been protecting my existence. They have fought political wars in the Balkans, Iraq, Afghanistan and provided humanitarian support to places such as Sierra Leone and East Timor. They have joined the military and have done so out of choice, and they are paid well for it.

2) I am sick of being guilt-tripped into wearing a poppy. My grandfather and millions of others fought for my right to choose either way. People fighting in the World Wars fought to defend the very existence of this country when it was under grave threat from nefarious forces.

3) Remembrance Day (and the Poppy Appeal) exists to commemorate the war dead of the UK and the Commonwealth. I prefer to commemorate and remember all of the war dead, young lives expended in such futility. World War One strikes a particular chord - soldiers of every nationality fighting, often through naivety or compulsion, over scraps of Belgian fields. Appalling. Every time I see images of British men drowning in mud or being bayoneted, I remember that the same thing also happened to German men (or any other 'enemy' nationality), that that man also had a mother, a wife and perhaps children. It is important for us to remember the wider picture - the sheer waste of life on all sides. I recommend watching "All Quiet On The Western Front" or "Aces High" if you ever have a few spare hours.

I always pause on Armistice Day, and respect the silence. I take the time to remember the nature and pointlessness of war, and the value of the freedom I have. I am thankful that I am free to express myself, I have a good and secure job, I can afford my own apartment and a car, to entertain myself and to be educated, and that I can fulfil most of my wants and needs quite quickly owing to the freedom that was paid for by millions of young lives.

I should add that I am not a pacifist, and I was for six years an Air Cadet, for context. I fully respect everybody's views on the subject, and provided you do not interfere with the people who do want to mark Remembrance Day, then you are free to do whatever you like to commemorate (or not commemorate) the occasion however you wish.

 

[Schnellzug]

This is the first year I haven't bought a poppy.

I choose not to do so for a few reasons:

1) Money from the sale of poppies goes to the Royal British Legion. They exist to provide support to ex-service men and women. The vast majority of the RBL's money is now spent on men and women who chose to enlist in the military, for a job. I don't believe that those men and women should be without support, but I believe that support should come from the military (and by extension the Government) itself. Those men and women have generally not been protecting my existence. They have fought political wars in the Balkans, Iraq, Afghanistan and provided humanitarian support to places such as Sierra Leone and East Timor. They have joined the military and have done so out of choice, and they are paid well for it. .

But did they sign up to fight Political wars? did they queue up to join when the Government invaded Afghanistan or Iraq? Really, I think the "Political" wars in the Balkans (to stop butchers like Milosevic and Karadic) were well justified.