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2 policewoman spoke to me In Edinburgh waverly

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I went to the railway station bar and I asked if i could have a pint of cider please

Barman "Yes but you would have to drink it 15 mins"

Me "Why serve it if people will have to drink fast in 15 mins/not enough time to drink blah blah?"

Barman said something about it being the rules or something so i ask for a half pint and from my recollection as was a bit merry last night :lol: the time was 11PM ish from my recollection when i sat down so im sitting drinking my half pint and at 11.10pm I Get told the bar shut and I have to leave words to that effect, and I said to them the barman told me 15 mins they repeated themselfs I said i was finishing my drink as i had another 5 mins, lady says she will get the police and I told her to go get them,2 Female cops came and I downed the rest of my drink and they spoke to me outside

Cop said something they were called as I was refusing to move,i told them about what the barman said to me 15 mins etc and I say about it being a police state etc :o they asked for my name I said-

"I do not have to give you my name"

Cop "Yes you do"

"I have not broke any law"

Cop says something about i have and it is"Bylaw 2 b" or something like that i say my name is "Mr X"

I go on about them taking the bar people's side blah blah and the cop told me it is clear i had an attitude and that i didnt like police and i said"I dont like the Police" then went on about me getting my train so after more blabbing back and forth i go get my train....jeez

Thoughts?.
 
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Crossover

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To be honest, from what you have said there, it sounds like you may have possibly been a little offish (though of course we don't know what tone you spoke with, as that could have also taken things one way or another)

If you feel you were a little merry, maybe that came across to the police as well and they were doing it to protect themselves in case it progressed any further.
 

sonic2009

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Here are the Railway byelaws http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/railway-byelaws/railway-byelaws.pdf

4.3 (i) : (3) Where an authorised person reasonably believes that any person is unfit to
enter or remain on the railway, or has with him intoxicating liquor contrary to
Byelaw 4(2), an authorised person may:
(i) require him to leave the railway; and
(ii) prevent him entering or remaining on the railway until an
authorised person is satisfied that he has no intoxicating liquor
with him and/or is no longer in an unfit condition.

This also may apply :

5. Unfit to be on the railway
No person shall enter or remain on the railway if, in the reasonable opinion of
an authorised person, he is in an unfit or improper condition or his clothing
may soil or damage any part of the railway or the property or clothing of any
person on the railway.
 

Murph

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It's very hard to say for certain without actually seeing and hearing the encounter (for the body language, tone, tempo, etc). On the face of what you describe, it does rather sound like you failed what many police call the "attitude test", but that you were fortunate enough to be being dealt with by a couple of fundamentally decent cops. From what you've said, they basically let the whole thing go, where a bad cop could have easily made life significantly more tiresome or awkward for you (e.g. using the rules & procedures to delay you sufficiently to ensure that you missed your train).

While it's generally true that you're not obliged to give your name unless arrested or under reasonable suspicion of having committed an offence (which should be clearly explained to you), a slightly softer approach is often better all round. E.g. "Sorry, but I don't feel that I've done anything wrong, so I'd prefer not to give my details". It avoids unnecessary confrontation/escalation, gives the cops a chance to patiently explain their position.

The bar staff are equally at fault if the timing is accurate for not being consistent and fair in their behaviour. If one member of staff tells you that you're good for 15 minutes, that's the minimum you should get without any hassle, as long as you are generally being a pleasant customer.
 
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It's very hard to say for certain without actually seeing and hearing the encounter (for the body language, tone, tempo, etc). On the face of what you describe, it does rather sound like you failed what many police call the "attitude test", but that you were fortunate enough to be being dealt with by a couple of fundamentally decent cops. From what you've said, they basically let the whole thing go, where a bad cop could have easily made life significantly more tiresome or awkward for you (e.g. using the rules & procedures to delay you sufficiently to ensure that you missed your train).

While it's generally true that you're not obliged to give your name unless arrested or under reasonable suspicion of having committed an offence (which should be clearly explained to you), a slightly softer approach is often better all round. E.g. "Sorry, but I don't feel that I've done anything wrong, so I'd prefer not to give my details". It avoids unnecessary confrontation/escalation, gives the cops a chance to patiently explain the
It's very hard to say for certain without actually seeing and hearing the encounter (for the body language, tone, tempo, etc). On the face of what you describe, it does rather sound like you failed what many police call the "attitude test", but that you were fortunate enough to be being dealt with by a couple of fundamentally decent cops. From what you've said, they basically let the whole thing go, where a bad cop could have easily made life significantly more tiresome or awkward for you (e.g. using the rules & procedures to delay you sufficiently to ensure that you missed your train).

While it's generally true that you're not obliged to give your name unless arrested or under reasonable suspicion of having committed an offence (which should be clearly explained to you), a slightly softer approach is often better all round. E.g. "Sorry, but I don't feel that I've done anything wrong, so I'd prefer not to give my details". It avoids unnecessary confrontation/escalation, gives the cops a chance to patiently explain their position.

The bar staff are equally at fault if the timing is accurate for not being consistent and fair in their behaviour. If one member of staff tells you that you're good for 15 minutes, that's the minimum you should get without any hassle, as long as you are generally being a pleasant customer.

That's a very fair and objective post, thanks.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It's very hard to say for certain without actually seeing and hearing the encounter (for the body language, tone, tempo, etc). On the face of what you describe, it does rather sound like you failed what many police call the "attitude test", but that you were fortunate enough to be being dealt with by a couple of fundamentally decent cops. From what you've said, they basically let the whole thing go, where a bad cop could have easily made life significantly more tiresome or awkward for you (e.g. using the rules & procedures to delay you sufficiently to ensure that you missed your train).

While it's generally true that you're not obliged to give your name unless arrested or under reasonable suspicion of having committed an offence (which should be clearly explained to you), a slightly softer approach is often better all round. E.g. "Sorry, but I don't feel that I've done anything wrong, so I'd prefer not to give my details". It avoids unnecessary confrontation/escalation, gives the cops a chance to patiently explain their position.

The bar staff are equally at fault if the timing is accurate for not being consistent and fair in their behaviour. If one member of staff tells you that you're good for 15 minutes, that's the minimum you should get without any hassle, as long as you are generally being a pleasant customer.

Murph, As far as Iam Aware(I could,of course be wrong) there is no signs up anywhere in the station showing of these bylaws.

I dont think there is a sign in the area where the bar is as well.ir position.

The bar staff are equally at fault if the timing is accurate for not being consistent and fair in their behaviour. If one member of staff tells you that you're good for 15 minutes, that's the minimum you should get without any hassle, as long as you are generally being a pleasant customer.

That's a very fair and objective post, thanks.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It's very hard to say for certain without actually seeing and hearing the encounter (for the body language, tone, tempo, etc). On the face of what you describe, it does rather sound like you failed what many police call the "attitude test", but that you were fortunate enough to be being dealt with by a couple of fundamentally decent cops. From what you've said, they basically let the whole thing go, where a bad cop could have easily made life significantly more tiresome or awkward for you (e.g. using the rules & procedures to delay you sufficiently to ensure that you missed your train).

While it's generally true that you're not obliged to give your name unless arrested or under reasonable suspicion of having committed an offence (which should be clearly explained to you), a slightly softer approach is often better all round. E.g. "Sorry, but I don't feel that I've done anything wrong, so I'd prefer not to give my details". It avoids unnecessary confrontation/escalation, gives the cops a chance to patiently explain their position.

The bar staff are equally at fault if the timing is accurate for not being consistent and fair in their behaviour. If one member of staff tells you that you're good for 15 minutes, that's the minimum you should get without any hassle, as long as you are generally being a pleasant customer.

Murph, As far as Iam Aware(I could,of course be wrong) there is no signs up anywhere in the station showing of these bylaws.

I dont think there is a sign in the area where the bar is as well.
 
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dosxuk

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"drinking up time" in a bar is a privilege, not a right. While a publican is legally allowed to give 20 minutes for people to finish their drinks, you do not legally have 20 minutes after final orders to finish your drink. Any time they do indicate can be revoked at any point and you be asked to leave. So the bar were allowed to ask you to leave quicker than they said, and the Police were completely right to back them up.

However, whether that's good for keeping a customer base is a completely different question.
 
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To the best of my knowledge I'm unaware there are any signs in the station that show the bylaws.

Does anyone know If the bylaws are displayed in Waverley station?
 
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4SRKT

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"drinking up time" in a bar is a privilege, not a right. While a publican is legally allowed to give 20 minutes for people to finish their drinks, you do not legally have 20 minutes after final orders to finish your drink. Any time they do indicate can be revoked at any point and you be asked to leave. So the bar were allowed to ask you to leave quicker than they said, and the Police were completely right to back them up.

However, whether that's good for keeping a customer base is a completely different question.

Although calling the Police because someone has overstayed his welcome by a couple of minutes is a massive overreaction. Some people (me included) would say this is a waste of Police time.

Get yr booze at the off-license next time Englandisgreat, although don't drink it on a ScotRail train!

On that subject, does the booze ban apply to pax travelling within Scotland on East Coast, Virgin and Cross Country, or is it just on ScotRail? I know that it doesn't apply on the sleepers.
 

jon0844

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Instead of giving your name/address, you should have given your username from here. ;)
 

rail-britain

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does the booze ban apply to pax travelling within Scotland on East Coast, Virgin and Cross Country, or is it just on ScotRail? I know that it doesn't apply on the sleepers.
No, it only applies on services operated by ScotRail
Hence why the wording is "the majority of rail services within Scotland"
 
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Although calling the Police because someone has overstayed his welcome by a couple of minutes is a massive overreaction. Some people (me included) would say this is a waste of Police time.

Get yr booze at the off-license next time Englandisgreat, although don't drink it on a ScotRail train!

On that subject, does the booze ban apply to pax travelling within Scotland on East Coast, Virgin and Cross Country, or is it just on ScotRail? I know that it doesn't apply on the sleepers.

The Policewoman did not seem to take my side of the story seriously, and as you can imagine that did not help my mood.

If it ever had transpired that i was in the wrong about the time situation I would have no problem admitting my mistake and saying sorry.

Why would the policewoman not give serious consideration to my side of the story? I consider that unfair.
 
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CarterUSM

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Not advisable - he would have been banged up in Saughton within seconds :p

Maybe not quite, but for future reference Englandisgreat (and it is! ) in Scotland you must give your name and address to plod when asked otherwise they officially take the huff. Still think it was more than a touch harsh from what you say.
 
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Maybe not quite, but for future reference Englandisgreat (and it is! ) in Scotland you must give your name and address to plod when asked. Still think it was more than a touch harsh from what you say.

I only got asked for my name but not my address!.
 
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Mr Spock

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Maybe not quite, but for future reference Englandisgreat (and it is! ) in Scotland you must give your name and address to plod when asked otherwise they officially take the huff. Still think it was more than a touch harsh from what you say.

Not sure why you think it was harsh - he was in a bar and was told it was closing and asked to drink up and leave which he should have done but instead acted like a petulent little brat and said he was going to take another 5 minutes.

As for this additional 5 minutes how does he know how long he had actually been there as in his original post he only thinks it was about 11ish that he was told he had 15 minutes to drink up in.

Perhaps a bit of consideration for the staff working there who obviously wanted to close up and go home might also have not of gone amiss.
 

CarterUSM

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Not sure why you think it was harsh - he was in a bar and was told it was closing and asked to drink up and leave which he should have done but instead acted like a petulent little brat and said he was going to take another 5 minutes.

As for this additional 5 minutes how does he know how long he had actually been there as in his original post he only thinks it was about 11ish that he was told he had 15 minutes to drink up in.

Perhaps a bit of consideration for the staff working there who obviously wanted to close up and go home might also have not of gone amiss.



Because he genuinely thought he had the time to drink up.
 

yorksrob

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Indeed. I have been in the unfortunate position to have been served a round only to be told to be outside the door within five minutes (fortunately not at a railway establishment). On this occasion, the young and obviously inexperienced bar woman even tried to give us plastic glases to make us drink up outside (even though one of my companions pointed out that there was no beer garden, and the street outside was by law a no drinking zone and taking our drinks out would have actually been illegal !).

Drinking up time might not be a "right" bit it's certainly bad form for an alehouse not to give patrons sufficient time to finish. Quite apart from anything, it's not condusive to responsible drinking to serve clients and tell them to down it in five minutes. I also feel that if a landlord or his staff aren't capable of organising twenty-five minutes between last orders and chucking out, then they shouldn't be in the pub business (perhaps a career with flexi-time might be more appropriate !).
 

Flamingo

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The Policewoman did not seem to take my side of the story seriously, and as you can imagine that did not help my mood.

If it ever had transpired that i was in the wrong about the time situation I would have no problem admitting my mistake and saying sorry.

Why would the policewoman not give serious consideration to my side of the story? I consider that unfair.

The police are not there to take sides - they were there to keep the peace. If removing you from the bar was going to keep the peace, then that's what they will do. It does sound (as does the tone of your posts on here) that you were just looking for an arguement, and weren't going to be told what to do, and are now whinging because the barstaff's ability to bugger you about proved greater than your ability to bugger them about.

They might have asked you for your name as it is nicer to call someone by name than "sir" (or "thingy"), it's less confrontational.

As regards them being unfair, you must learn that life isn't fair (see above).

As another point, why did you need 15 minutes to finish half a pint? They all probably thought you were a southern nancy boy for ordering a half-pint, let alone not downing it in 15 seconds or less. It was only cider, not a half-pint of Single Malt (or Buckfast!)
 
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The police are not there to take sides - they were there to keep the peace. If removing you from the bar was going to keep the peace, then that's what they will do. It does sound (as does the tone of your posts on here) that you were just looking for an arguement, and weren't going to be told what to do, and are now whinging because the barstaff's ability to bugger you about proved greater than your ability to bugger them about.

They might have asked you for your name as it is nicer to call someone by name than "sir" (or "thingy"), it's less confrontational.

As regards them being unfair, you must learn that life isn't fair (see above).

As another point, why did you need 15 minutes to finish half a pint? They all probably thought you were a southern nancy boy for ordering a half-pint, let alone not downing it in 15 seconds or less. It was only cider, not a half-pint of Single Malt (or Buckfast!)

It's called relaxing and If you check the post above, I thought sincerely I had the time to drink up.

Regarding My Name the cop had her notebook open when asking

Indeed. I have been in the unfortunate position to have been served a round only to be told to be outside the door within five minutes (fortunately not at a railway establishment). On this occasion, the young and obviously inexperienced bar woman even tried to give us plastic glases to make us drink up outside (even though one of my companions pointed out that there was no beer garden, and the street outside was by law a no drinking zone and taking our drinks out would have actually been illegal !).

Drinking up time might not be a "right" bit it's certainly bad form for an alehouse not to give patrons sufficient time to finish. Quite apart from anything, it's not condusive to responsible drinking to serve clients and tell them to down it in five minutes. I also feel that if a landlord or his staff aren't capable of organising twenty-five minutes between last orders and chucking out, then they shouldn't be in the pub business (perhaps a career with flexi-time might be more appropriate !).

Excellent Post, I Relate to that very much and I am very sorry about your Experience. Terrible.

Because he genuinely thought he had the time to drink up.

That Is the EXACT Reason I Caused a Fuss.
 
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carriageline

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Just give them your name, and they wouldn't have a problem. People like that seriously grate on my nerves.
 

Greenback

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Drinking up time might not be a "right" bit it's certainly bad form for an alehouse not to give patrons sufficient time to finish. Quite apart from anything, it's not condusive to responsible drinking to serve clients and tell them to down it in five minutes. I also feel that if a landlord or his staff aren't capable of organising twenty-five minutes between last orders and chucking out, then they shouldn't be in the pub business (perhaps a career with flexi-time might be more appropriate !).

You are spot on there, mate. Unfortunately, I have witnessed quite abit of this in my visits to licenced establishments ove rthe last 30 years. Things are generally better now, but you can still find bar staff who try and rush you out as soon as closing time comes along.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with it as long as the establishment makes it clear that closing time is when you have to leave, and that they will happily sell you drinks up to that point as long as you leave at the required time (so that you could be a shot or a vodka, for example, down it and go!).

However, as the custom and practice is to allow drinking up time, I feel it is morally incumbent on the staff to le tpeople know if this is not the case.

The police are not there to take sides - they were there to keep the peace. If removing you from the bar was going to keep the peace, then that's what they will do.

That's a succinct and very useful way of describing the role of the police.

It does sound (as does the tone of your posts on here) that you were just looking for an arguement, and weren't going to be told what to do, and are now whinging because the barstaff's ability to bugger you about proved greater than your ability to bugger them about.

From the point of view of the officers attending, the have received a call about someone refusing to leave licenced premises. They ar ethen confronted by an argumentative and un-cooperative person who, by their own admission had had a few! I am not surprised that the OP was spoken to!

They might have asked you for your name as it is nicer to call someone by name than "sir" (or "thingy"), it's less confrontational.

True, I imagine they didn't want the situation to escalate any further.

As regards them being unfair, you must learn that life isn't fair (see above).

As another point, why did you need 15 minutes to finish half a pint? They all probably thought you were a southern nancy boy for ordering a half-pint, let alone not downing it in 15 seconds or less. It was only cider, not a half-pint of Single Malt (or Buckfast!)

At my best in the 1980's and 1990's I could certainly have downed a half pint of Buckfast in one, but I'm not at all certain about the single malt!!!
 
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Does not mean he had not "used up" his 15 minutes as he was unsure of the time he was told that was the remaining time.

I Quite Rightly gave Myself the benefit of the doubt as i am 90 odd % sure i had sat down at my table at just on 11pm or ever so slightly before so when I got told at 11.10pm My Time was "up" The 15 Minutes i was told of would NOT been used up,you may call that nitpicking But I feel it is Right.

The police are not there to take sides - they were there to keep the peace. If removing you from the bar was going to keep the peace, then that's what they will do. It does sound (as does the tone of your posts on here) that you were just looking for an arguement, and weren't going to be told what to do, and are now whinging because the barstaff's ability to bugger you about proved greater than your ability to bugger them about.

They might have asked you for your name as it is nicer to call someone by name than "sir" (or "thingy"), it's less confrontational.

As regards them being unfair, you must learn that life isn't fair (see above).

As another point, why did you need 15 minutes to finish half a pint? They all probably thought you were a southern nancy boy for ordering a half-pint, let alone not downing it in 15 seconds or less. It was only cider, not a half-pint of Single Malt (or Buckfast!)

Flamingo, Again-


"As another point, why did you need 15 minutes to finish half a pint? "

It it is called RELAXING, I take no pleasure In downing any type of drink other than a shot in one

As I Left the cops to get my Train and the Talk was just Ending I said to Her Colleague who was Silent All the Time that I would Shake Her Hand But Not The Cop Who Was Giving me the 3rd Degree.

Not After How She Spoke To me.

Not sure why you think it was harsh - he was in a bar and was told it was closing and asked to drink up and leave which he should have done but instead acted like a petulent little brat and said he was going to take another 5 minutes.

As for this additional 5 minutes how does he know how long he had actually been there as in his original post he only thinks it was about 11ish that he was told he had 15 minutes to drink up in.

Perhaps a bit of consideration for the staff working there who obviously wanted to close up and go home might also have not of gone amiss.

What About Giving Consideration And Benefit of the Doubt to the Paying Customer??.

That Was One Of The Main Thing's that Irked me When the Member Of The BTP started Talking To Me...
 
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ralphchadkirk

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I Quite Rightly gave Myself the benefit of the doubt as i am 90 odd % sure i had sat down at my table at just on 11pm or ever so slightly before so when I got told at 11.10pm My Time was "up" The 15 Minutes i was told of would NOT been used up,you may call that nitpicking But I feel it is Right.
So you're not absolutely sure when you were told that you had 15 minutes left. In other words, you could have been told that at 9.55?

As I Left the cops to get my Train and the Talk was just Ending I said to Her Colleague who was Silent All the Time that I would Shake Her Hand But Not The Cop Who Was Giving me the 3rd Degree.

Not After How She Spoke To me.
So just being petty to the Police who had been shoved in a difficult situation as it was...

(Oh, and not every word needs to be capitalised!)
 
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So you're not absolutely sure when you were told that you had 15 minutes left. In other words, you could have been told that at 9.55?


So just being petty to the Police who had been shoved in a difficult situation as it was...

(Oh, and not every word needs to be capitalised!)

I Was at the bar at 10.55pm and by the time i had the conversation with the barman(Check my Op) and Got My half pint it was I can assure after 10.55pm so It would have been Under my 15 Minutes when i had another member of staff tell the place had shut or was shutting.

Being Petty yes , As I didnt like how i was Spoken To and I was Fairly Polite to the cop, It was more my Tone of voice when I was talking to the cop as I was not happy how i was treated.
 
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