2 x Class 185s, all passengers at York crammed into the front unit

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mikeg

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Hi, I've just gotten back from work in York on 1P87, I sort of see where the guard was coming from but never had this happen before and think it was a tad overzealous. He ordered everyone at York to get on the front unit, despite there only being about ten of us waiting on the platform where the rear unit was and all broadly sober. Drunks don't tend to move up the platform so I've learnt this is how to get a quieter journey. Not this time.
Having spoken to the guard, he said it's for safety reasons of people being drunk etc. but I honestly don't see how this is the case when the drunks mostly travel up front anyway. Also it meant the service was packed, people moaning about not being able to sit in their reserved seats etc. I had to stand, which I don't mind as such but it seemed unnecessary.

Having spoken to customer services via WhatsApp they said that all 6 cars were in use, but we were denied boarding to them at York 'because some stations' have short platforms. When I pointed out that selective door opening is used they said that with so many merry passengers travelling it's best to ensure they get off where they're meant to get off. Surely if they missed the copious annoucements and PIS displays saying so though, it's their own fault? I do find it a tad nannyish. If people are too drunk to understand that then let them get overcarried. It'll give them a vital lesson in responsibility. In the meantime don't punish the rest of us for others' inability to watch how much they drink.

Oh and not that it bothers me, being fully vaccinated and all but needless to say it meant social distancing was completely impossible!

I suggest the railways on the customer service side grow some backbone and tell people when they're at fault and too drunk. I'm not saying they should be denied boarding (unless absolutley and utterly wasted!) but they should be prepared to tell people when they fail to get off the train at the correct stop that the situation is of their own making and there's nothing the railways can do. That's all I ask.
 
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the sniper

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I do find it a tad nannyish. If people are too drunk to understand that then let them get overcarried. It'll give them a vital lesson in responsibility. In the meantime don't punish the rest of us for others' inability to watch how much they drink.

I doubt it was for their sake. More likely to have been to avoid Passcomms/Egress, which weren't risk free to deal with even pre-covid...

But I agree with the sentiment of your last point.
 

mikeg

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Ah I see thanks. I honestly feel for any guard who has to work that service and having witnessed passcom and egress handle pulls on grand Central, both near tollerton, by drunken passengers I kind of understand a bit more .
To be honest Im not sure what the solution is as I don't want it to be like previous years where passengers were variously judged and treated like cattle by STM. I think I'll just take the risk of having to stand and accept it is what it is.

Still, when do we get class 68s and mk5s on this route? Better than two units coupled together in that respect
 

yorkie

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Ah yes I've seen this before where passengers boarding at York are only allowed to occupy a selected area of a train, so as not to disturb the other passengers.

This is due to lots of drunk people boarding at York, and people boarding there heading back to certain destinations are assumed to be part of the herd ;)

Fortunately I am getting off at York at this point, so it's not affected me.

They should allow sober people to board other parts of the train, in my opinion.
 

61653 HTAFC

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They should allow sober people to board other parts of the train, in my opinion.
I share your frustration, but I'm not sure how the above suggestion could be implemented. Breathalysers on the platform? Or a US-style sobriety test? Both utterly impractical.
 

mikeg

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Were it simply a single unit I'd just say accept it's Saturday night and there's going to be drunk people, subject to them actually behaving in a legal manner. Bert and Ada might not like it but they chose to travel on Saturday night...
An increased BTP and revenue presence may do the trick, what I don't want to see is the return of the STM squad,making up rules as they go along as STM are known to do.

In any case unless it's extremely busy it's easy to find the quiet part of the train That was what I was going to do. The drunks tend to crowd round the entrance to the platform. Those of us with more sense walk a bit further along. In most cases it's self enforcing
 

driverd

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I'm not sure of the current rules around Yarm, but historically, you're only allowed to run the set as 3 car, due to there being none of the rear unit platformed. I'm not certain if it's a company or sectional appendix rule, but in essence; if its possible for people to be in a part of the train that is unplatformed in its entirety and there is no means of passengers accessing a door, then you can't use that unit at all.

Another option is to use the whole train as far as Northallerton and move people there, which might mean a little more space for customers when you are forced into one unit only, none the less, means a degree of annoyance and upheaval mid journey. More common practice was to put the less merry passengers in first class, nicely out of harms way (and if numbers require, sometimes to overspill into the rest of the DMC vehicle).

It's not a pleasant service to catch, and as the OP rightly identifies, will be much better served by a mk5 set.
 

Robertj21a

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Isn't it York that has achieved something of a national reputation for drunks on trains?
 

185

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I wonder if town councils could be err 'encouraged' to part fund platform extensions by the train operators threatening to withdraw services that don't fit?

No easy answer with the 185s - I was told they had ASBO ASDO modifications, but whether or not it works is anyone's guess judging by the issues they've faced. One quirk of a 185 (when new) was on a double set, when the rear set is locked out with UDB (UDS) you can still key in at the rear train's middle coach guard operation panel (gop) and let people out at that local door - ie when you released the doors, the front set opened, the back set didn't except the GOP local door in the rear set - whether or not this still works with the thousands of modifications including ASDO, I'm not too sure now... (ie guards.. don't test if this still works with passengers on)
 

RHolmes

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One quirk of a 185 (when new) was on a double set, when the rear set is locked out with UDB (UDS) you can still key in at the rear train's middle coach guard operation panel (gop) and let people out at that local door - ie when you released the doors, the front set opened, the back set didn't except the GOP local door in the rear set - whether or not this still works with the thousands of modifications including ASDO, I'm not too sure now... (ie guards.. don't test if this still works with passengers on)

It does still work.

I regularly use this at Gatley on the Redcar service as the doors on the fifth carriage will only open (despite being accommodated) if first class is the fourth carriage due to the C-ASDO beacon reader position on the bottom of the 51* car. At this particular station it means that you can get either five carriages or four and a half on the platform, the GOP is right near the main entrance/exit and waiting room and you have a full forward view of the platform and signal

GOP doors will always open independently of C-ASDO or UDB or the external ‘butler buttons’ unless keyed in at another part of the train

I'm not sure of the current rules around Yarm, but historically, you're only allowed to run the set as 3 car, due to there being none of the rear unit platformed.

Another option is to use the whole train as far as Northallerton and move people there

Due to the timing of the service the best place to do this on 1P87 is at Leeds and York, there’s only one minute between departure and arrival at Northallerton.

Yarm is ‘officially’ 3 carriages
 

_toommm_

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It does still work.

I regularly use this at Gatley on the Redcar service as the doors on the fifth carriage will only open (despite being accommodated) if first class is the fourth carriage due to the C-ASDO beacon reader position on the bottom of the 51* car. At this particular station it means that you can get either five carriages or four and a half on the platform, the GOP is right near the main entrance/exit and waiting room and you have a full forward view of the platform and signal

GOP doors will always open independently of C-ASDO or UDB or the external ‘butler buttons’ unless keyed in at another part of the train



Due to the timing of the service the best place to do this on 1P87 is at Leeds and York, there’s only one minute between departure and arrival at Northallerton.

Yarm is ‘officially’ 3 carriages

There’s also a weird issue with the way it interfaces with the PIS. Approaching Huddersfield from Leeds on a six-car 185, being in the front set it always tells you to move forward to exit at the station.

A lot of the local stations do that too, where it thinks the front set can’t be accommodated and tells you to move forward. Not sure what it sounds like in the rear half, as seat reservations are normally in the front half.
 

Capybara

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Leaving aside all the technical stuff. we are still in a pandemic and we are still supposed to be distancing so surely the company has a duty of care to its passengers and should ensure that they can keep as far as possible from others and this should mean allowing all the space in the train to be used. I've had both injections but I wouldn't want to be travelling in those conditions.
 

RHolmes

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There’s also a weird issue with the way it interfaces with the PIS. Approaching Huddersfield from Leeds on a six-car 185, being in the front set it always tells you to move forward to exit at the station.

In normal operation it should play the “please move forward” announcement in the rearmost first, and then XX seconds later in the next carriage to mimic the action of someone walking from say the 6th through the 5th to the 4th.

However, If the rear unit is UDB’d the announcement will play in EVERY single carriage TWO times because the PIS gets confused including the front one and there is absolutely no way to override it without stopping all announcements, and displaying only a clock or black blank which isn’t accessibility friendly (the TV screens will still show it).
 

61653 HTAFC

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In normal operation it should play the “please move forward” announcement in the rearmost first, and then XX seconds later in the next carriage to mimic the action of someone walking from say the 6th through the 5th to the 4th.

However, If the rear unit is UDB’d the announcement will play in EVERY single carriage TWO times because the PIS gets confused including the front one and there is absolutely no way to override it without stopping all announcements, and displaying only a clock or black blank which isn’t accessibility friendly (the TV screens will still show it).
I think one of @_toommm_ 's points was that both "main" platforms at Huddersfield can accommodate six cars, so any announcements related to moving forward are unnecessary.
 

RHolmes

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I think one of @_toommm_ 's points was that both "main" platforms at Huddersfield can accommodate six cars, so any announcements related to moving forward are unnecessary.

Yes, sorry I was adding on to that another quirk

Huddersfield platform 8 doesn’t accommodate a 6 car unless the driver draws close to the signal and beyond the purple stop board for the Nova fleet which is why the announcement plays towards Leeds. (Admittedly it does it for platform 1 towards Manchester too when it shouldn’t)
 

Failed Unit

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Leaving aside all the technical stuff. we are still in a pandemic and we are still supposed to be distancing so surely the company has a duty of care to its passengers and should ensure that they can keep as far as possible from others and this should mean allowing all the space in the train to be used. I've had both injections but I wouldn't want to be travelling in those conditions.
I don’t care myself - but I had a similar journey myself from Grimsby - Cleethorpes. 2x 153. Rear set locked up. Front set standing. It did find that odd for a whole coach to be out of use when some people are concerned about social distancing. on my Return TPE had taped of a section for the guard.
 

_toommm_

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In normal operation it should play the “please move forward” announcement in the rearmost first, and then XX seconds later in the next carriage to mimic the action of someone walking from say the 6th through the 5th to the 4th.

However, If the rear unit is UDB’d the announcement will play in EVERY single carriage TWO times because the PIS gets confused including the front one and there is absolutely no way to override it without stopping all announcements, and displaying only a clock or black blank which isn’t accessibility friendly (the TV screens will still show it).

I think one of @_toommm_ 's points was that both "main" platforms at Huddersfield can accommodate six cars, so any announcements related to moving forward are unnecessary.

Yes, sorry I was adding on to that another quirk

Huddersfield platform 8 doesn’t accommodate a 6 car unless the driver draws close to the signal and beyond the purple stop board for the Nova fleet which is why the announcement plays towards Leeds. (Admittedly it does it for platform 1 towards Manchester too when it shouldn’t)

Ah interesting, thank you for the explanation. I didn’t know 8 was rather tight so you learn something new!
 

Doctor Fegg

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I wonder if town councils could be err 'encouraged' to part fund platform extensions by the train operators threatening to withdraw services that don't fit?
Not many town councils with the budget for that! Counties/unitaries, maybe.
 
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A few Years ago (2016) I think) I went to board a TPE 185 at York Middlesborough bound on a Sat evening. Platform Staff aproached me any my Collegue and said to wait when it arrived he'd have a word with the Guard and see that we could go First class for our Journey! Just like that! Didn't particularly notice any potential Drunk Pax waiting to board and I don't think I saw him approach anyone else waiting so maybe he just took a shine to us!
 

APT618S

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I'm not sure of the current rules around Yarm, but historically, you're only allowed to run the set as 3 car, due to there being none of the rear unit platformed. I'm not certain if it's a company or sectional appendix rule, but in essence; if its possible for people to be in a part of the train that is unplatformed in its entirety and there is no means of passengers accessing a door, then you can't use that unit at all.
How selective is SDO ? Could you not stop with at least cars 3 & 4 platformed, i.e. one car from each 3 car unit.
 

driverd

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How selective is SDO ? Could you not stop with at least cars 3 & 4 platformed, i.e. one car from each 3 car unit.

I don't know about the new ASDO so I'm certainly not the best person to answer. I suspect, in theory, you could program is as such but Id expect that would mean only cars 2&3 would open for a standard 3 car as TPE use balaise based ASDO rather than GPS.

A platform extension is the simplest answer, I would say!
 

_toommm_

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I don't know about the new ASDO so I'm certainly not the best person to answer. I suspect, in theory, you could program is as such but Id expect that would mean only cars 2&3 would open for a standard 3 car as TPE use balaise based ASDO rather than GPS.

A platform extension is the simplest answer, I would say!

There’s not much at Yarm that I can think of in the way of extending the platforms to at least four-carriage length.
 

clagmonster

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I don’t care myself - but I had a similar journey myself from Grimsby - Cleethorpes. 2x 153. Rear set locked up. Front set standing. It did find that odd for a whole coach to be out of use when some people are concerned about social distancing. on my Return TPE had taped of a section for the guard.
That has been the method of work for 2 x 153 on the Barton Line since May 2020 in order to allow the guard to be socially distanced. I can't see it changing until we get the 156s in December 2021. The 185 turn on the line has also been removed due to social distancing concerns with the local door operation, causing the main Grimsby morning commuter train to be withdrawn - I can't see this ever being reinstated.
 

ainsworth74

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I don't know about the new ASDO so I'm certainly not the best person to answer. I suspect, in theory, you could program is as such but Id expect that would mean only cars 2&3 would open for a standard 3 car as TPE use balaise based ASDO rather than GPS.

A platform extension is the simplest answer, I would say!

You can release individual vehicles but not, I believe, individual doors. As far as I'm aware all the stations where TPE call can accept at least four cars so usually one full unit releases and the front vehicle of the trailing unit with plenty of audio and visual warnings that passengers will need to move forward.

There’s not much at Yarm that I can think of in the way of extending the platforms to at least four-carriage length.


Yarm has already been extended to four-car length.
 

PennineSuperb

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Class 185 C-ASDO (Coach - Automatic Selective Door Operation) is a coach based operating system, you have to have the whole coach on the platform and the system can not just lock 1 set of doors out on a vehicle.
As the train rolls into the platform, it rolls over a beacon (set 13.5m from the end of the platform as this is the vehicle center point including couplers) which gives permission for the doors in that vehicle to open. The system then resets after a predetermined distance however there is no overrun protection provided by the system.

Yarm is 4 coaches in both the UP & Down Direction.
 

37057

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Class 185 C-ASDO (Coach - Automatic Selective Door Operation) is a coach based operating system, you have to have the whole coach on the platform and the system can not just lock 1 set of doors out on a vehicle.
As the train rolls into the platform, it rolls over a beacon (set 13.5m from the end of the platform as this is the vehicle center point including couplers) which gives permission for the doors in that vehicle to open. The system then resets after a predetermined distance however there is no overrun protection provided by the system.

Yarm is 4 coaches in both the UP & Down Direction.

To add a little extra complexity, the tracklink antenna isn't mounted centrally (under the battery box towards no.1 end) so the beacon placement has to account for the extra distance between antenna and no.2 end of the vehicle, rather than vehicle centre.
 
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No wonder this new covid variant is spreading when train companies are doing this. I would bring this up with a newspaper. During times of social distancing to do this is not acceptable.
 

gimmea50anyday

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I'm not sure of the current rules around Yarm, but historically, you're only allowed to run the set as 3 car, due to there being none of the rear unit platformed.

It's not a pleasant service to catch, and as the OP rightly identifies, will be much better served by a mk5 set.
Yarm has now been extended and can accomodate 4 cars. we were supposed to be running 68/mk5 by now had covid not been a thing, 6 car 185s do stop there with operational CASDO as Redcar services have been operating as 6 cars since the covid timetable was introduced however as I no longer sign the route I am unsure if any local restriction has been introduced but I am not aware of any.

a 6 car is supposed to be run in service as a 6 car unless defective, such as a demic unit attached for positioning or if casdo has failed. I am aware some staff tend to run with front 3 only where the service is expected to be quiet, i have done that myself, and that would be fair enough IF it was quiet, however clarting fresh air around in an operational back 3 when the front 3 is F+S is not acceptable and management should be having words with the conductor concerned if this was the case.
 

Bletchleyite

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That has been the method of work for 2 x 153 on the Barton Line since May 2020 in order to allow the guard to be socially distanced. I can't see it changing until we get the 156s in December 2021. The 185 turn on the line has also been removed due to social distancing concerns with the local door operation, causing the main Grimsby morning commuter train to be withdrawn - I can't see this ever being reinstated.

Why isn't a vestibule enough for the guard?
 
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