2023 Israel - Hamas / Hezbollah war

[PudseyBearHST]

I just hope one day there will be a Free Palestine.

The way the West rallies around Israel is very smelly and more and more people are noticing the stink. The events in Amsterdam and how they are reported on is a great example of this. Media says the Israelis are victims - it’s a shame everyone’s already seen them shouting “death to Arabs” and making light of bombing schools in Gaza. Oh and what’s that? They were still doing similar chants on arriving back in Israel? Victims where

This incident in Amsterdam probably sums up the whole situation. You have the aggressors and when there is retaliation, they will play the victim card and the media/politicians will all focus on the retaliation. Doesn’t excuse the people who were retaliating, of course, but it is inevitable and you can’t ignore what the aggressors have done. False evidence as well with one of the videos circulating of Israelis being “hunted” in the street is actually Israelis attacking a Dutch man- as can be seen in the Owen Jones video at 06:30 where the photographer calls them out.

(Twitter post by iAnnett displayed at 06:30 in below video)

I am the creator this video.
1. you are spreading fake news, this is a group of Maccabi supporters starting a fight and beating one Dutch man. 2. delete this content, I didn’t give you permission.

 

[sjpowermac]

Please do keep saying it. It's revealing that you hand-wringingly say "beyond tragic" to about 45,000 Palestinian deaths (a third of which are children and babies, and a third of which are women), 100,000 maimed or injured, and 10,000 missing. Yet you claim October 7th, a single atrocity claiming 1,100 lives in Israel is "genocide".

I’m not at all clear what you are attempting to add to the debate through this post.

I will withdraw my claim that the events of 7th October 2023 were genocide and re-word my statement as ‘7th October was beyond tragic.’ I don’t think that’s in any way ‘hand-wringing.’

How best to describe that event? I have read on the thread in recent days that some people feel 7th October was ‘inevitable’ or that objecting to what happened is ‘whinging’. Where do you stand?

You site numbers of deaths, but I am not at all certain in and of itself if that is a determining factor in deciding if an act is one of genocide or not.

Here is a link to the United Nations statement on genocide:

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/Genocide%20Convention-FactSheet-ENG.pdf

Here is the key part:

DEFINITION OF GENOCIDE IN THE CONVENTION:


The current definition of Genocide is set out in Article Il of the Genocide Convention:


Genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

1. Killing members of the group;
2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Further on in the document there is a discussion on the difficulty of proving intent.

The definition of Genocide is made up of two elements, the physical element — the acts committed; and the mental element — the intent. Intent is the most difficult element to determine. To constitute genocide, there must be a proven intent on the part of perpetrators to physically destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. Cultural destruction does not suffice, nor does an intention to simply disperse a group, though this may constitute a crime against humanity as set out in the Rome Statute. It is this special intent, or dolus specialis, that makes the crime of genocide so unique.


To constitute genocide, it also needs to be established that the victims are deliberately targeted — not randomly — because of their real or perceived membership of one of the four groups protected under the Convention. This means that the target of destruction must be the group, as such, or even a part of it, but not its members as individuals.

I agree with the UN, I think intent is difficult to prove. I don’t feel that I’m placed to make that judgment either about October 7th (hence my withdrawal of the term genocide in referring to those events) or about the war in Gaza.

As I have repeated many times, I support the right of Israel to defend itself, but the civilian deaths have been a tragedy, no ifs or buts (and definitely no hand-wringing).

What I find surprising though is the lack of criticism of Hamas, a group who have brutally suppressed their own people. Or of Iran, whose record on human rights is not exactly a glowing one.

None of this is to excuse in any way the civilian deaths in Gaza. I do think though that both Hamas and Iran have no interest at all in the plight of the Palestinian people. How interested do you think that they are?

This is my final post in the thread, mainly because I’ve been hugely disappointed by the lack of debate on what is a hugely complex topic. I had hoped that I might learn something by participating here, but sadly not.

There have been many instances were raw emotion has been bandied about and where politeness has been misinterpreted.

 

[nw1]

What I find surprising though is the lack of criticism of Hamas, a group who have brutally suppressed their own people. Or of Iran, whose record on human rights is not exactly a glowing one.

None of this is to excuse in any way the civilian deaths in Gaza. I do think though that both Hamas and Iran have no interest at all in the plight of the Palestinian people. How interested do you think that they are?

This is because probably everyone knows Hamas are brutal and monstrous terrorists. I also agree that they don't give a damn about the Palestinians, really - but it's also fairly likely that Netanyahu's violence might push some Palestinians towards them, which isn't good, of course.

However, we're all in agreement about that. There are too many people in the media and in politics who believe that Netanyahu's reaction is a fair and proportionate one, and that Netanyahu treats Palestinians reasonably: hence more calling out of Netanyahu on here.

I would tend to agree that what Netanyahu has done isn't genocide, as such : but is still violent and absolutely without excuse. I would still regard him as a war criminal.

 

[PudseyBearHST]

I’m not at all clear what you are attempting to add to the debate through this post.

I will withdraw my claim that the events of 7th October 2023 were genocide and re-word my statement as ‘7th October was beyond tragic.’ I don’t think that’s in any way ‘hand-wringing.’

How best to describe that event? I have read on the thread in recent days that some people feel 7th October was ‘inevitable’ or that objecting to what happened is ‘whinging’. Where do you stand?

You site numbers of deaths, but I am not at all certain in and of itself if that is a determining factor in deciding if an act is one of genocide or not.

Here is a link to the United Nations statement on genocide:

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/Genocide%20Convention-FactSheet-ENG.pdf

Here is the key part:


Further on in the document there is a discussion on the difficulty of proving intent.

I agree with the UN, I think intent is difficult to prove. I don’t feel that I’m placed to make that judgment either about October 7th (hence my withdrawal of the term genocide in referring to those events) or about the war in Gaza.

As I have repeated many times, I support the right of Israel to defend itself, but the civilian deaths have been a tragedy, no ifs or buts (and definitely no hand-wringing).

What I find surprising though is the lack of criticism of Hamas, a group who have brutally suppressed their own people. Or of Iran, whose record on human rights is not exactly a glowing one.

None of this is to excuse in any way the civilian deaths in Gaza. I do think though that both Hamas and Iran have no interest at all in the plight of the Palestinian people. How interested do you think that they are?

This is my final post in the thread, mainly because I’ve been hugely disappointed by the lack of debate on what is a hugely complex topic. I had hoped that I might learn something by participating here, but sadly not.

There have been many instances were raw emotion has been bandied about and where politeness has been misinterpreted.

The point I think Alterego was trying to make is that it’s all good saying how saddened you are about Palestinians being killed but if you’re still of the opinion that Israel has the right to “defend” itself and do whatever it needs to do to destroy Hamas, it’s just lip service and also ignores the fact that Israel’s objectives are much more than destroying Hamas.

 

[Moderating team]

I think its time we drew a halt to this discussion until there is a significant development in this conflict. When anyone thinks there is then please either report this post or use the contact us facility.

 

[brad465]

Well that ceasefire went well:

Israel continuing strikes across Gaza, as Hamas ministry says more than 400 killed

It comes after the Hamas ministry says more than 400 people have been killed in strikes across the Gaza Strip on Tuesday.

www.bbc.co.uk

What happened in Gaza overnight?

It has just turned 07:00 in London and 09:00 in Gaza. If you're just joining us, here's a timeline of what happened overnight:

• At just after 02:15 local time (00:15 GMT), the BBC reported Israeli warplanes had launched dozens of airstrikes across the Gaza Strip
• The Israel Defense Forces and Israel Security Agency announced just before 02:30 local time that they were "conducting extensive strikes" on Hamas "terror targets" in Gaza
• About 15 minutes later, the Palestinian Civil Emergency Service said Israel had carried out at least 35 airstrikes, and that at least 15 people had been killed and dozens injured
• Around 03:00 local time (01:00 GMT) the Israeli prime minister's office said the IDF had been instructed to take "strong action" against Hamas, following the group's "refusal to release our hostages" and its rejection of proposals received from the US "and from the mediators". "Israel will, from now on, act against Hamas with increasing military strength," it said
• At 03:20 (01:20 GMT) Hamas released a statement, describing the attacks as "treacherous" and saying the Israeli government had decided to overturn the ceasefire "exposing the prisoners in Gaza to an unknown fate"
• Around 20 minutes later an Israeli official said the IDF was striking dozens of targets, "based on Hamas readiness to execute terror attacks, build up force and re-arm"
• Just before 04:00 (03:00 GMT) reports emerged that the highest-ranking Hamas security official in the territory, Mahmoud Abu Wafah, had been killed
• Around 08:00 local time, the Hamas-run Gaza health ministry said the death toll from the Israeli strike overnight had risen to "at least 330"

 

[jon0844]

They need to get everyone out (one way or another) and level everything ready for reconstruction. Trump has made it clear that this is going to happen and any excuse can (and must) be found to justify the genocide.

 

[Carlisle]

Is there a longer term realistic alternative to Hamas be it a reunified P.A. or something else, ? if not hard to see another ceasefire lasting let alone any comprehensive peace plan, regardless of Trump’s or any other right wing ideologues ill informed hopes or desires.

 

[brad465]

Netanyahu now saying full force fighting is returning:

Israel continuing strikes across Gaza, as Hamas ministry says more than 400 killed

It comes after the Hamas ministry says more than 400 people have been killed in strikes across the Gaza Strip on Tuesday.

www.bbc.co.uk

Netanyahu: Strikes 'just the beginning', fighting resumes with 'full force'
​

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu just delivered a televised statement - here are the key lines:

• Israel has resumed combat in Gaza with “full force”, Netanyahu said in his broadcast from Tel Aviv
• He said the wave of strikes launched on Gaza overnight and throughout the day are “just the beginning” - adding that the fighting would continue until Israel had achieved its war aims
• The PM accused Hamas of rejecting the proposals Israel brought to ceasefire talks. From now on, “negotiations will only be done under fire”, he added
• He thanked Israelis and said together they are "changing the face of the Middle East". "We will win," he concluded

What happens now is anyone's guess.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Netanyahu now saying full force fighting is returning:

Israel continuing strikes across Gaza, as Hamas ministry says more than 400 killed

It comes after the Hamas ministry says more than 400 people have been killed in strikes across the Gaza Strip on Tuesday.

www.bbc.co.uk

What happens now is anyone's guess.

Trumps Nobel Peace prize is looking in severe doubt!

 

[AlterEgo]

Netanyahu now saying full force fighting is returning:

Israel continuing strikes across Gaza, as Hamas ministry says more than 400 killed

It comes after the Hamas ministry says more than 400 people have been killed in strikes across the Gaza Strip on Tuesday.

www.bbc.co.uk

What happens now is anyone's guess.

More genocide.

 

[brad465]

More genocide.

Trump will make many of the "Genocide Joe" crowd wish it was still him running things.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Is there a longer term realistic alternative to Hamas be it a reunified P.A. or something else, ? if not hard to see another ceasefire lasting let alone any comprehensive peace plan, regardless of Trump’s or any other right wing ideologues ill informed hopes or desires.

The only realistic option is for Saudi Arabia and other Arab nations to step up and agree to act as an administrator in Gaza.

 

[GusB]

The only realistic option is for Saudi Arabia and other Arab nations to step up and agree to act as an administrator in Gaza.

I agree that this is probably the best way forward but I don't think it's going to happen as long as the US is poking its nose in. Trump's grand plan seems to be to shift the Palestinians out completely and move them to other countries; I'm sure they'd be quite safe in Sudan, Somalia and Somaliland.

AP Exclusive: US and Israel look to Africa for moving Palestinians uprooted from Gaza

The U.S. and Israel have reached out to officials of three East African governments to discuss using their territories as potential destinations to move Palestinians from the Gaza Strip.

apnews.com

JERUSALEM (AP) — The U.S. and Israel have reached out to officials of three East African governments to discuss using their territories as potential destinations for moving Palestinians uprooted from the Gaza Strip under President Donald Trump’s proposed postwar plan, American and Israeli officials told The Associated Press.

The contacts with Sudan, Somalia and the breakaway region of Somalia known as Somaliland reflect the determination by the U.S. and Israel to press ahead with a plan that has been widely condemned and raised serious legal and moral issues. Because all three places are poor, and in some cases wracked by violence, the proposal also casts doubt on Trump’s stated goal of resettling Gaza’s Palestinians in a “beautiful area.”

Officials from Sudan said they have rejected overtures from the U.S., while officials from Somalia and Somaliland told The Associated Press that they were not aware of any contacts.

The idea of a mass transfer of Palestinians was once considered a fantasy of Israel’s ultranationalist fringe. But since Trump presented the idea at a White House meeting last month, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has hailed it as a “ bold vision.”


Palestinians in Gaza have rejected the proposal and dismiss Israeli claims that the departures would be voluntary. Arab nations have expressed vehement opposition and offered an alternative reconstruction plan that would leave the Palestinians in place. Rights groups have said forcing or pressuring the Palestinians to leave could be a potential war crime.

Still, the White House says Trump “stands by his vision.”

As long as Ben-Gvir, Smotrich and their lunatic acolytes exist, I cannot see any end to this. Well, I can but it doesn't really bear thinking about. Meanwhile, the Western world looks on and does nothing. It's all thoroughly depressing.

 

[PudseyBearHST]

The only realistic option is for Saudi Arabia and other Arab nations to step up and agree to act as an administrator in Gaza.

How? The problem is Israel not Palestine. Israel and the West want Gaza for themselves, if that isn’t abundantly clear.

 

[Gaz67]

More genocide.

Don't think using the word genocide is correct here. This is Total War, we were engaged in it in WW 2 and had to learn the rules quickly. Dresden for example, would you of had Bomber Harris tried at Nuremburg, maybe a few others , Wing Commanders , maybe a few aircrew. It would be nice and tidy if the IDF and Hamas could form squares in the desert and fight this out. Israel is fighting for its very survival , like we were in 1940. If you could swap the armed capabilities of Israel with Hamas around then Israel would no longer exist. Yes the word genocide is not helpful here.

 

[AlterEgo]

Don't think using the word genocide is correct here. This is Total War, we were engaged in it in WW 2 and had to learn the rules quickly. Dresden for example, would you of had Bomber Harris tried at Nuremburg, maybe a few others , Wing Commanders , maybe a few aircrew. It would be nice and tidy if the IDF and Hamas could form squares in the desert and fight this out. Israel is fighting for its very survival , like we were in 1940. If you could swap the armed capabilities of Israel with Hamas around then Israel would no longer exist. Yes the word genocide is not helpful here.

Israel is trying to eliminate and ethnically cleanse Gaza, not bomb it for future renewal and revitalisation by the same people who live there now.

Thinking that what is happening in Gaza is "like Dresden" fundamentally misunderstands both events. Israel wants to physically destroy Gaza and eliminate the culture. Israel a colony which exists only because of external support, only because of violence, and which can only continue to exist through violence.

No, this is not like the Allies in WWII.

 

[Gaz67]

Israel is trying to eliminate and ethnically cleanse Gaza, not bomb it for future renewal and revitalisation by the same people who live there now.

Thinking that what is happening in Gaza is "like Dresden" fundamentally misunderstands both events. Israel wants to physically destroy Gaza and eliminate the culture. Israel a colony which exists only because of external support, only because of violence, and which can only continue to exist through violence.

No, this is not like the Allies in WWII.

100% disagree with you. I think it's you that misunderstands if you think this is genocide. October 7 was pretty closer to genocide I think.

 

[AM9]

100% disagree with you. I think it's you that misunderstands if you think this is genocide. October 7 was pretty closer to genocide I think.

Arguably, the Israeli offensive could be described as A holocaust - defined as 'destruction or slaughter on a mass scale' (note the indefinite article), the object being to rid the middle-east of Hamas without regard to unlimited collateral damage.

 

[PudseyBearHST]

100% disagree with you. I think it's you that misunderstands if you think this is genocide. October 7 was pretty closer to genocide I think.

Are we going to ignore everything that’s happened before that then?

Extracts from the Colorado National Monument Visitor Center (I have copied the text
from the pictures I had taken of the information there)

The 1858 Colorado Gold Rush forever destroyed the Utes' traditional lifestyle and culture. As miners poured onto Ute territories, they over-harvested the lands and permanently scarred the landscape. With each gold discovery, miners and settlers pressured the U.S. government for protection and demanded that Utes give up more of their homeland. Bloody conflicts between the Utes and the intruders led to the signing of several treaties. While Ute leaders signed in hopes of creating peace, the treaties were not honored by the U.S. government.

By 1878, most of the Utes had been forced to relocate to several reservations in western Colorado. Federal laws and U.S. soldiers severely restricted their hunting and gathering, and the Utes were taught farming methods unsuitable to the barren lands that remained part of their homelands.

In 1879, a small group of Utes retaliated against their inhumane treatment in what became known as the "Meeker Incident." Those Utes were gathered at gunpoint, and a forced evacuation tore them from their homelands. By 1882, the majority of Utes were confined to reservations. Their nomadic lifestyle, complex culture, and noble spirit appeared to come to an end.

Sound familiar? This Israel-Palestine conflict is literally a copy and paste to what the European settlers had been doing all over the US to Native Americans.

Looking at October 7th without considering what has happened in the previous 50 years would be like looking at the 3rd extract alone which is absurd.

 

[AlterEgo]

100% disagree with you. I think it's you that misunderstands if you think this is genocide. October 7 was pretty closer to genocide I think.

Absolutely not.

9/11 wasn't a genocide of the American people for the same reason. You fundamentally do not understand what genocide is if you think this. Israel is a latter-day colony which ethnically cleansed other people to be there in the first place and is committed to expanding at the expense of the genocide of Palestinians. It has all the hallmarks of 18th and 19th century colonialism, the human costs of which most decent people find repellent, but in 2025.

 

[Gaz67]

Are we going to ignore everything that’s happened before that then?

Extracts from the Colorado National Monument Visitor Center (I have copied the text
from the pictures I had taken of the information there)





Sound familiar? This Israel-Palestine conflict is literally a copy and paste to what the European settlers had been doing all over the US to Native Americans.

Looking at October 7th without considering what has happened in the previous 50 years would be like looking at the 3rd extract alone which is absurd.

Wow, that's some googling you've been doing, the Hamas fan boys are strong in this thread, making it impossible to discuss. That's me out, just wanted to put an opposite view forward. Will stay away from here now for the sake of my blood pressure.

 

[jon0844]

Wow, that's some googling you've been doing, the Hamas fan boys are strong in this thread, making it impossible to discuss. That's me out, just wanted to put an opposite view forward. Will stay away from here now for the sake of my blood pressure.

I cannot believe there is one single Hamas fan boy in here.

With the death toll in Gaza likely to now be between 150,000 and possibly even as high as 500,000, I cannot see how anyone could defend what has happened.

Plenty of Jewish people are as aghast as the rest of the world. Are they Hamas sympathisers?

It's clear after what Trump said that Gaza is for the taking, but the place has to be totally destroyed and I don't think anyone is meant to care about the inhabitants now they've been dehumanised. I can't see how this is anything different to what Hitler did and would have continued to do in different circumstances.

The key difference is that we were trying to stop Hitler, but today Netanyahu has no real opposition. Indeed the US is fully behind him.

 

[PudseyBearHST]

Wow, that's some googling you've been doing, the Hamas fan boys are strong in this thread, making it impossible to discuss. That's me out, just wanted to put an opposite view forward. Will stay away from here now for the sake of my blood pressure.

Googling? Didn’t you read I took the pictures myself no Google involved. Monuments all over the US are dedicated to the American Indians who were forcibly removed from their land with violence. Allegedly, these monuments are also there so that we can learn lessons from the past so that they won’t happen again but that isn’t the case.

You didn’t even attempt to give an answer to a pertinent question. The best you can do is accuse us of being terrorist sympathisers and attempt to get this thread closed.

 

[Gaz67]

Googling? Didn’t you read I took the pictures myself no Google involved. Monuments all over the US are dedicated to the American Indians who were forcibly removed from their land with violence. Allegedly, these monuments are also there so that we can learn lessons from the past so that they won’t happen again but that isn’t the case.

You didn’t even attempt to give an answer to a pertinent question. The best you can do is accuse us of being terrorist sympathisers and attempt to get this thread closed.

Pal listen up, I don't want a debate and I'm certainly not interested in your holiday snaps. I'm not trying to get the thread taken down either, I was just putting my view forward. I find it strange that the views on here and another footballing forum I go on are very similar. However out in the real world I don't know anyone who gives a toss about Gaza or Israel to be honest. I don't talk about it at work because nobody cares. Except when suffering abuse during demos preventing me from working ,which happen regularly, even a 16 year old female apprentice has been verbally abused by pro Palestinian protesters. Then we talk about it and you can imagine our thoughts. We Don t want to import grievances from the middle east to our shores. Sadly I think it's too late. Anyway debate away and maybe you can send your holiday snaps to the Israeli hostages, if they are still alive, remember them.

 

[AlterEgo]

Pal listen up, I don't want a debate and I'm certainly not interested in your holiday snaps. I'm not trying to get the thread taken down either, I was just putting my view forward. I find it strange that the views on here and another footballing forum I go on are very similar.

Perhaps those views are the prevailing views of people who care about things like anti-colonialism and genocide.

However out in the real world I don't know anyone who gives a toss about Gaza or Israel to be honest. I don't talk about it at work because nobody cares. Except when suffering abuse during demos preventing me from working ,which happen regularly, even a 16 year old female apprentice has been verbally abused by pro Palestinian protesters.

What does that have to do with genocide? Do you think if supporters of a cause are rude or abusive, or problematic, this in some way diminishes the humanity of the people whose cause they are fighting? If you or someone you knew was the recipient of a rude comment, or abuse, from, say, British people in 1939 advocating for the acceptance of more Jewish refugees from Europe - would this in some way diminish their case? Would you publicly complain about it to strangers while using the time to say that their problem - imminent genocide - was no big deal?

It's certainly true that some Gaza protests can be annoying, but I can't say I have been "abused" when passing any protest of any sort by any cause whether I agree with it or not.

Then we talk about it and you can imagine our thoughts.

I can't. Maybe you can tell us what they are?

Sadly I think it's too late. Anyway debate away and maybe you can send your holiday snaps to the Israeli hostages, if they are still alive, remember them.

Perhaps they could also be sent to the thousands of children and babies callously - and certainly - deleted by the Israeli regime. It's very telling you choose to highlight a few dozen hostages when you might, if you weren't being partial - highlight 50,000 dead Palestinians.

 

[Cloud Strife]

With the death toll in Gaza likely to now be between 150,000 and possibly even as high as 500,000, I cannot see how anyone could defend what has happened.

I will play devil's advocate a little bit here and say that Hamas knew fine well what would happen when they attacked. The only surprising thing to me is that Israel just didn't completely flatten Gaza in the first few weeks, consequences be damned. I do wonder if the Israeli forces expected Hamas to collapse once they started taking heavy losses, but it seems that they're in such strong control of Gaza that nothing short of genocide is going to remove them from power.

The problem all along is that we left Hamas in control of Gaza. The Palestinian Authority has no interest in fighting Israel, and they've been pursuing the path of diplomatic and international recognition instead, which is working well. But we let Hamas stay in Gaza, and they went too far when they could.

How? The problem is Israel not Palestine. Israel and the West want Gaza for themselves, if that isn’t abundantly clear.

The problem is not just Israel. Israel withdrew unilaterally from Gaza and has been suffering plenty of rocket attacks since, and as we saw, Gaza was willing to attack Israel when they built up the capability to do so. This is why Gaza needs to be under Arab administration, as they can impose civilian rule while preventing attacks on Israel.

Many of the issues with Gaza, such as the sea and air blockades, came as a result of weapons smuggling and attacks on Israel. Had Gaza chosen peace, then Israel would have been forced to let them live normally, but instead (and sadly), they chose war.

 

[jon0844]

Perhaps they could also be sent to the thousands of children and babies callously - and certainly - deleted by the Israeli regime. It's very telling you choose to highlight a few dozen hostages when you might, if you weren't being partial - highlight 50,000 dead Palestinians.

That figure has stood for so long that there's no way it's still that low (well, that isn't low but you know what I mean). There are now estimates ranging from 100,000 to as high as 500,000.

It's fine for people to refuse to accept such figures without proof, but it's fair to say that the number cannot have remained static for so long given what's been going on and IS going on.

 

[brad465]

The problem is not just Israel. Israel withdrew unilaterally from Gaza and has been suffering plenty of rocket attacks since, and as we saw, Gaza was willing to attack Israel when they built up the capability to do so. This is why Gaza needs to be under Arab administration, as they can impose civilian rule while preventing attacks on Israel.

Many of the issues with Gaza, such as the sea and air blockades, came as a result of weapons smuggling and attacks on Israel. Had Gaza chosen peace, then Israel would have been forced to let them live normally, but instead (and sadly), they chose war.

This would be more acceptable were it not for the illegal settlement of parts of the West Bank by Israel, where Hamas has no jurisdiction. This doesn't mean Hamas doesn't get a free pass, but this is far from a one-sided problem.

ICJ says Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories is illegal

It also says Israel should end all settlement activity there, in the landmark case.

www.bbc.co.uk

The UN's top court has said Israel's occupation of Palestinian territories is against international law, in a landmark opinion.
The International Court of Justice (ICJ) said Israel should stop settlement activity in the occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem and end its "illegal" occupation of those areas and the Gaza Strip as soon as possible.
In response, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said the court had made a "decision of lies".
The court's advisory opinion is not legally binding but still carries significant political weight. It marks the first time the ICJ has delivered a position on the legality of the 57-year occupation.
The ICJ, based at The Hague in the Netherlands, has been examining the issue since the beginning of last year, at the request of the UN General Assembly, external.
The court was specifically asked to give its view on Israel's policies and practices towards the Palestinians, and on the legal status of the occupation.
Delivering the court's findings, external, ICJ President Nawaf Salam said it had found that "Israel's... continued presence in the Occupied Palestinian Territory is illegal."
"The State of Israel is under the obligation to bring an end to its unlawful presence in the Occupied Palestinian Territory as rapidly as possible," he said.
He said Israel's withdrawal from the Gaza Strip in 2005 did not bring Israel's occupation of that area to an end because it still exercises effective control over it.
The court also said Israel should evacuate all of its settlers from the West Bank and East Jerusalem and pay reparations to Palestinians for damages caused by the occupation.
Israel has built about 160 settlements housing some 700,000 Jews in the West Bank and East Jerusalem since 1967. The court said the settlements were illegal. Israel has consistently disputed that they are against international law.
The ICJ said Israel's "policies and practices amount to annexation of large parts of the Occupied Palestinian Territory", which it said was against international law, adding that Israel was "not entitled to sovereignty" over any part of the occupied territories.
Israel claims sovereignty over the whole of Jerusalem, the eastern half of which it captured in the 1967 Middle East war. It considers the city its indivisible capital - something which is not accepted by the vast majority of the international community.
Among its other far-reaching conclusions, the court said Israeli restrictions on Palestinians in the occupied territories constituted "systemic discrimination based on, inter alia, race, religion or ethnic origin". It also said Israel had illegally exploited the Palestinians' natural resources and violated their right to self-determination.
The court also advised states to avoid any actions, including providing aid or assistance, that would maintain the current situation.
Israel's prime minister swiftly issued a blunt statement rejecting what the court had determined.
"The Jewish people are not occupiers in their own land - not in our eternal capital Jerusalem, nor in our ancestral heritage of Judea and Samaria" (the West Bank), Mr Netanyahu said in a statement.
"No decision of lies in The Hague will distort this historical truth, and similarly, the legality of Israeli settlements in all parts of our homeland cannot be disputed."
But the court's findings were welcomed by the Palestinians.
Hussein Al Sheikh, the secretary general of the Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO), the Palestinians' main umbrella group, called it "a historic victory for the rights of the Palestinian people and their right to self-determination. And the collapse and defeat of the Judaization project through confiscation, settlement, displacement, and racist practices against a people under occupation.
"The international community must respect the opinion of international justice and force Israel to end its occupation of the Palestinian territories," he said.
The court's findings will now go to the UN General Assembly, which will decide how to respond, including the option of adopting a resolution. That would be significant and could constitute a catalyst for negotiations and set the legal parameters for a future negotiated settlement.
This case is separate from another active case brought to the ICJ by South Africa accusing Israel of committing genocide against the Palestinians in the war in Gaza.

I would say the biggest barrier to between 1973 and October 2023 was Yitzak Rabin's assassination. He and Yasser Arafat were on the road to a two-state solution and a more sustained peace, before someone affiliated with the Israeli far-right killed him in opposition to signing the Oslo Accords.

 

[Gaz67]

Anyway my point about Israel not committing genocide stands. October 7 was a game changer and anything gone before is irrelevant now. What the future holds for Gaza is anybodys guess. The inhabitants of Gaza mean absolute zilch to Hamas ( and their backers). All the talk above is irrelevant . I find the history lessons that follow any post going away from the script on here galling. My father was in the army in Palestine just after the war dodging bullets and bombs from Jews and Arabs alike, very sympathetic for the Arabs he was, I suppose if he had been a little older he may have liberated a camp in Germany and had a totally different perspective. We all have different views on here gained from many sources, however it's obvious that the hate is heading to our shores. Words such as genocide fan the flames in my opinion , it's not our fight as my father said.