2040 Tube Map

[Peter Mugridge]

Could just change all the line names to letters or numbers such as many systems around the world have.

That is a very good idea.

 

[hexagon789]

That is a very good idea.

Thank you! If I'm honest I was on y being half-serious there, but it there's a reason why metro systems such as those in Paris and Barcelona uses letters and numbers. I also think it's easier to remember.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I go to Paris regularly and I find the number and letter system is much easier to follow than the London naming system.

 

[hexagon789]

I go to Paris regularly and I find the number and letter system is much easier to follow than the London naming system.

I agree it's got a nice logic to it, though I used to find the stopping patterns of the RER a bit confusing.

 

[rebmcr]

I agree it's got a nice logic to it, though I used to find the stopping patterns of the RER a bit confusing.

Yeah, I was whisked off to Charles de Gaulle on a fast service when I only wanted to get to Le Bourget! I was not looking forward to getting inspected but luckily that didn't happen.

 

[LeeLivery]

Why is it ridiculous?
I want an Underground map, not a map that shows me inner London lines...

I agree I just want an Underground map, but if they are putting Crossrail on, they should put Thameslink. Both will have high frequencies, both business cases were helped by the premise of reducing pressure on the tube. By TfL's own admission being on the tube map helps usage. Taxpayer money has funded the Thameslink Programme, we should be wanting the money paying for itself asap. Furthermore, its got DLR, London Overground, Tramlink, Cable Car and had Thameslink. If it's not ridiculous to have all that then Thameslink core at least should be a given.

I go to Paris regularly and I find the number and letter system is much easier to follow than the London naming system.

A numbering system makes sense. We can retain the names but have a number too. In Sydney they've done this: T1 North Shore, Northern & Western, T2 Airport & East Hills, T3 Bankstown, T4 Eastern Suburbs & Illawarra and so on.

 

[hexagon789]

Yeah, I was whisked off to Charles de Gaulle on a fast service when I only wanted to get to Le Bourget! I was not looking forward to getting inspected but luckily that didn't happen.

I ended up on a service that didn't stop in Val D'Europe and went fast to Marne la Vallée, I had wrongly assumed everything stopped everywhere. Thankfully not a costly mistake!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I had wrongly assumed everything stopped everywhere.

Like Thameslink... The RER only stops everywhere in the core sections on each line...

 

[hexagon789]

Like Thameslink... The RER only stops everywhere in the core sections on each line...

I find that takes a bit of getting used to. I assume there is a stopping pattern, but I couldn't seem to figure out what and just checked the indicators before boarding.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I find that takes a bit of getting used to. I assume there is a stopping pattern, but I couldn't seem to figure out what and just checked the indicators before boarding.

Yes, there is a regular pattern - and most of the newer trains also have illuminated route indicator maps inside where the stations still to be called at are lit up, which is something that perhaps should be done over here as well. The four letter codes on the front of each train also indicate the destination and stopping pattern in the same way that our old Southern two figure headcodes did.

The other thing about the RER - they don't mess around holding trains on the approaches in order to send them through the core in the planned timetable order - they send them through strictly in the order in which they are presented at the feed points. ( Network Rail... take note for Thameslink and Crossrail... this is something you'll need to do in order to avoid delays building up... )

 

[hexagon789]

Yes, there is a regular pattern - and most of the newer trains also have illuminated route indicator maps inside where the stations still to be called at are lit up, which is something that perhaps should be done over here as well. The four letter codes on the front of each train also indicate the destination and stopping pattern in the same way that our old Southern two figure headcodes did.

The other thing about the RER - they don't mess around holding trains on the approaches in order to send them through the core in the planned timetable order - they send them through strictly in the order in which they are presented at the feed points. ( Network Rail... take note for Thameslink and Crossrail... this is something you'll need to do in order to avoid delays building up... )

I think we can learn much from other countries railways, I like to think they can learn from us as well though!

The thing I found most disconcerting is that cab signalling system on Line A, the way one draws into the platform as the last one is often still exiting.

 

[Mikey C]

Why is it ridiculous?
I want an Underground map, not a map that shows me inner London lines...

I'm not sure Overground trains to Cheshunt (for example) are more relevant to a Tube Map than an intensive, high capacity line from London Bridge to St Pancras

 

[hexagon789]

I'm not sure Overground trains to Cheshunt (for example) are more relevant to a Tube Map than an intensive, high capacity line from London Bridge to St Pancras

I certainly think the inner city lines should be shown.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The thing I found most disconcerting is that cab signalling system on Line A, the way one draws into the platform as the last one is often still exiting.

That's safer than it looks - they are literally crawling up; it's actually a sort of semi-automatic system whereby in the peaks the signalling system is over-ridden. That would, however, be more deserving of a dedicated thread...

 

[hexagon789]

That's safer than it looks - they are literally crawling up; it's actually a sort of semi-automatic system whereby in the peaks the signalling system is over-ridden. That would, however, be more deserving of a dedicated thread...

I'd love to see the Tube use that!

 

[Ali.Carr]

Might I ask what software that is?

I used Inkscape
(Sorry for the late reply about this)

 

[hexagon789]

I used Inkscape
(Sorry for the late reply about this)

Thanks for that, it looks like a very interesting piece of kit.

 

[philthetube]

Other examples of stations very close in real life but far apart on the Tube map are Queensway-Bayswater, Wimbledon-South-Wimbledon and Watford-Watford Junction (of course, the Croxley Rail link would fix the latter distortion)!

Agree that Watford-Watford Junction is a distortion, however strongly advise against turning up on a cold November night and expecting a 2 minute stroll between the two.

 

[Clip]

A numbering system makes sense. We can retain the names but have a number too. In Sydney they've done this: T1 North Shore, Northern & Western, T2 Airport & East Hills, T3 Bankstown, T4 Eastern Suburbs & Illawarra and so on.

How is that simpler than 'Victoria' 'Northern' 'Piccadilly' etc?

Yes, there is a regular pattern - and most of the newer trains also have illuminated route indicator maps inside where the stations still to be called at are lit up, which is something that perhaps should be done over here as well. The four letter codes on the front of each train also indicate the destination and stopping pattern in the same way that our old Southern two figure headcodes did.

But apart from the far reaches of the Met - all tubes stop at all stations dont they so how would a lit indicator be beneficial - especially if youre stood up for all your trip and cant see them anyway? Or the numerous announcements that are played telling you the next station?

 

[Cosmicismsx]

Could you trial swapping the 'West End' Northern Line to a hot pink colour perhaps? Would be interesting to see what the map looks like with overall two different colours there.

 

[LeeLivery]

How is that simpler than 'Victoria' 'Northern' 'Piccadilly' etc?

But apart from the far reaches of the Met - all tubes stop at all stations dont they so how would a lit indicator be beneficial - especially if youre stood up for all your trip and cant see them anyway? Or the numerous announcements that are played telling you the next station?

Becuase you can choose whether to use "T1" or the names which existed before "North Shore & Western/Northern". It's far easier to remember "Line 1" than the motherful of "Hammersmith & City".

As for the lit maps, it would be useful for S7 stock. I see people all the time looking at the wrong map or the wrong line. It would be good if the CIS on the platforms actually indicated the line on the sub-surface routes.

 

[Clip]

Becuase you can choose whether to use "T1" or the names which existed before "North Shore & Western/Northern". It's far easier to remember "Line 1" than the motherful of "Hammersmith & City".

So its a change for changes sake because youve used one of the 2 examples where its 2 words to describe the line then? Which is also a bit of a poor one seeing as for a large section of it is covered by other lines too - i mean after over 10 years working at mainline terminal stations in London i never found any resistance to people understanding what line they needed to catch by telling them the name or colour of the line they were to catch or change onto - yet its only on here where we are constantly told by everyone that numbers are easier and none seem to have frontline experience of dealing with these tourists they claim it will help!!(not generally aimed at you as not really seen if you do work there but others who seem to think numbers solve everything)

As for the lit maps, it would be useful for S7 stock. I see people all the time looking at the wrong map or the wrong line. It would be good if the CIS on the platforms actually indicated the line on the sub-surface routes.

They indicate the destination though so that solves this problem that has been invented - i mean how do you know they are looking at the wrong map - do you ask them? are you sure theyre not just curious and may be planning a different journey later on in the day or sometime later on their stay in London? You cant just write something as fact if you dont know the mindset of said passengers

 

[LeeLivery]

So its a change for changes sake because youve used one of the 2 examples where its 2 words to describe the line then? Which is also a bit of a poor one seeing as for a large section of it is covered by other lines too - i mean after over 10 years working at mainline terminal stations in London i never found any resistance to people understanding what line they needed to catch by telling them the name or colour of the line they were to catch or change onto - yet its only on here where we are constantly told by everyone that numbers are easier and none seem to have frontline experience of dealing with these tourists they claim it will help!!(not generally aimed at you as not really seen if you do work there but others who seem to think numbers solve everything)

They indicate the destination though so that solves this problem that has been invented - i mean how do you know they are looking at the wrong map - do you ask them? are you sure theyre not just curious and may be planning a different journey later on in the day or sometime later on their stay in London? You cant just write something as fact if you dont know the mindset of said passengers

Have you ever asked a tourist whether a numbering system would be easier? Anywho, I was referring to people who don't have a good concept of English, not someone from Yorkshire or Cornwall. The fact many people use the colour - something I've noticed as well and that every other Metro system uses numbers/letters would suggest names aren't the easiest to remember. The Tube isn't the easiest to navigate, it's also not the hardest.

Here's a reason why the Tube has navigation problems. We basically have two Northern Lines - I know someone who didn't even realise the Charing Cross branch existed as they only used it to/from London Bridge. If you're told Goodge St is on the Northern Line and you don't realise there are two central branches, you'd just assume can get there from London Bridge. A number system could work well here, or just adding "City/Charing branch" could help. I'm playing devil's advocate, but think how confusing that could be for someone with poor English.

You can't tell when someone is clearly a little confused? Indicating the destination doesn't solve the problem for many tourists, even Londoners if you're not going to the destination. If a tourist is going Earl's Court, do you think they're going to remember the end destinations of Wimbledon, Richmond, Kensington Olympia and Ealing Broadway? Many times I'm on a Circle Line train, they get on and go straight for the District Line map. Looking confused, searching for say King's X St. P for a while until they turn around and see the Circle and H&C map. Often, you can even hear them saying a station which isn't on the map. And yes, I have helped a few who were confused.

 

[rebmcr]

I was referring to people who don't have a good concept of English, not someone from Yorkshire or Cornwall.

Seems like a contradiction in terms!

Looking confused, searching for say King's X St. P for a while until they turn around and see the Circle and H&C map.

Indeed, or like one I helped last week: asking whether they needed to change at Edgware Road after boarding at Paddington — it wasn't until I pointed out the two Paddingtons that they understood.

 

[hexagon789]

Indeed, or like one I helped last week: asking whether they needed to change at Edgware Road after boarding at Paddington — it wasn't until I pointed out the two Paddingtons that they understood

Sometimes I'm quite glad the Glasgow Subway is just two circular loops with 15 stations - it's so beautifully simple compard to the London Underground! You have the "Orange" line and that's it!

 

[LeeLivery]

Seems like a contradiction in terms!

Indeed, or like one I helped last week: asking whether they needed to change at Edgware Road after boarding at Paddington — it wasn't until I pointed out the two Paddingtons that they understood.

Oh I shouldn't laugh at that but As for the map, yes I can see why it's easy to get confused. I know if I didn't have maps as a bit of a hobby I wouldn't find London easy and would've struggled in Paris and Barcelona.

Sometimes I'm quite glad the Glasgow Subway is just two circular loops with 15 stations - it's so beautifully simple compard to the London Underground! You have the "Orange" line and that's it!

I visited Glasgow in February, first time on the Subway, nice little system - reminds me of the Bakerloo Line just smaller.

 

[Carl Caulkett]

Some fun news! The Tube map found its way into Londonist and the Evening Standard.

Strangely enough on the version shown at Londonist, Holland Park station appears to have disappeared! And indeed the Evening Standard one. Is this a versioning issue, perhaps?

 

[plymothian]

A little niggle - Kings Cross St Pancras: lines should not change direction underneath a station blob. Can the Warren Street description not be moved to the left of its blob on a single line, bring Crossrail2 straight up and then bend parallel to the Victoria, stretch the Victoria blob northwards a bit to then fit in the Crossrail 2 bend?

 

[backontrack]

I noticed this too! I'd be interested to know how many Londoners know about the Northern line extension - I'd envisage it being a very small number. I'd suspect a very big proportion of Londoners don't even know about Crossrail.


The extension east of Lewisham is mentioned here (and in a few other places) in the transport strategy:

Spoiler: Timeline of infrastructure improvements

You're totally right that the focus now is on the bit up to Lewisham - if I was going to be more thorough with the map I should probably have made clearer the timeline / relative likelihoods for the different lines and extensions.

I thought they were going to Lewisham?

 

[317 forever]

Simple solution: call them Northern City Line and Northern West End Line.

Or even the Batware (Battersea - Edgware) and Mornet (Morden - High Barnet) Lines.