2040 Tube Map

Discussion in 'London Underground' started by Ali.Carr, 14 Mar 2018.

  1. 172006

    172006 Member

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    It is usually Kennington via Charing Cross or Morden via Bank, occasionally Morden via Charing Cross... but both branches start/terminate at Edgware and High Barnet except "between the hours of 7am and 11am, Monday to Friday..." (an announcement that many passengers seem to tune out and then wait at the wrong platform in Euston).
     
  2. Amaroussi

    Amaroussi Member

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    I think when the Northern line is split, TfL is going to review the heritage of the Northern line and then decide that the western half will be called the Hampstead line, after the Hampstead Railway that used to run on most of the new route. With a pre-existing one-word line name, there is no need to come up with a Bakerloo-style portmanteau or something.

    Furthermore, I think that TfL will likely colour the Hampstead line a light shade of lilac (similar to Paris Metro line 8, but perhaps closer to the hue of the Taxi and Private Hire roundel) because of an old Tube Map from 1908 (Wikimedia Commons). I do not think that TfL will use lime green or orange, because of Tramlink and the Overground respectively, and also the purple of the Elizabeth line/Crossrail is deep enough to avoid confusion with the shade of lilac that I described.

    Finally, I think that the eastern half of the Northern line will remain as is, because the High Barnet and Mill Hill East branches will keep the name somewhat relevant.
     
  3. bramling

    bramling Established Member

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    Yes it is because of the depots. If done the other way one route would have two depots and the other none. Having said that, this issue might lose relevance if Highgate is ever redeveloped into a full modern maintenance depot.

    In any case, the Barnet branch is the busier one, and without wishing to be undiplomatic has a slightly higher class of user so more likely to use the city branch. The Edgware branch has become quite drossy over the last couple of decades, a far cry from the days when it epitomised suburban semi-detached London.
     
  4. AlbertBeale

    AlbertBeale Member

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    Personally, I'd prefer it if both routes through the centre continued to have trains to both northern branches. (And not only because of the fascinating history of the intersections south of Camden Town station, and not wanting to see some of that unsed, but because there are times when I - and others - really don't want the faff of having to change if we can wait a few minutes for another train and avoid it. Though the "gaming" of the choice of southbound platform, in the crush at the bottom of the escalators, is entertaining, and part of the London tourist scene... almost as much fun as watching tourists try to get round the interchange at Embankment and get it right first time!)
     
  5. ijmad

    ijmad Established Member

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    I've always wondered if it would be easier on tourists and casual tube users just to have a 'virtual' split after the Battersea Extension opens.

    What I mean is:

    Line 1 (Black) goes Battersea via Charing Cross and then to both Edgware and High Barnet branches.
    Line 2 (Dark Grey?) goes Modern via Bank and ALSO shown to both Edgware and High Barnet branches.

    Trains are announced and signed separately in the Central area, and beyond Camden Town, the two 'services' are shown running next to each other just like all over the SSR network where the lines share tracks.
     
  6. AlbertBeale

    AlbertBeale Member

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    Though at some times of day - and night - there will surely still be Charing Cross trains continuing to Morden? So it wouldn't be a complete split. Anyway. I don't really understand the enthusiasm for trying to split the Northern Line into 2 separate services.
     
  7. Mikey C

    Mikey C Established Member

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    The point of the split is to be able to increase frequencies without the complicated Camden Town junction

    But then as no new trains have been ordered, I'm not sure an increase in frequency would be possible now anyway
     
  8. ijmad

    ijmad Established Member

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    It helps people unfamiliar with the network. Even for those familiar with metros, having two central branches is unusual. For people from less urban areas I bet it makes even less sense. I wonder if TfL have any data for the number of people who get on the Northern Line at Waterloo expecting to get to Old Street or the number getting off at Tottenham Court Road who want to go to Moorgate, for example. Plus since there is not distinction in the audio announcements at TCR and Bank, how could someone who's partially sighted or blind be expected to figure it out?
     
  9. ijmad

    ijmad Established Member

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    London Reconnections suggested that core frequencies could be increased using the same amount of stock by turning considerably more services at Golders Green and East Finchley, as there is less demand north of those stations. Though I'm not sure if the locals would be very happy.
     
  10. AlbertBeale

    AlbertBeale Member

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    Yes, in recent years I have occasionally encountered visitors to London who've been a bit confused when using the Northern Line; but they've all been people using their phone to navigate rather than looking at a tube map - as available to pick up at every station. I've never found anyone having difficulty if they have a tube map in front of them.

    Also, given that all combinations of movements at Camden Town's junctions are possible without any conflicting movements, then I'd reckon it'll be precisely when the line's signalling and rolling stock are upgraded (and hence scheduling can be more precise) that a mix-and-match service at Camden Town will cease to be any problem.

    For Londoners, having the option of both northern branches going via both loops through the centre is a great boon.

    If Camden Town had appropriate cross-platform interchanges both northbound and southbound, like at Kennington, then it wouldn't be so bad. But since it doesn't, then unless the junctions at Camden Town made a large proportional difference in possible headways and so on, then I prefer the pattern as it is.

    And even if, at some times of day, there is an operational separation of routes, if you "officially" separate them it takes away options at times when you really need the flexibility to switch routings. I think the current system, which Londoners are well used to, and which often gives the option of a through train or a slightly quicker take-the-first-and-change alternative, is less confusing than if there were two officially separate lines which occasionally mixed across with one another.

    We have a system which, for historical reasons, isn't as tidy - or as boring! - as it might be. I'm fine with that.
     
  11. rebmcr

    rebmcr Established Member

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    I believe that's exactly the reason that a split is desired.
     
  12. AlbertBeale

    AlbertBeale Member

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    So if that problem won't in fact be solved by upgrades, and (on the contrary) some of the increased frequency the upgrades would allow is inhibited by the Camden Town layout, and that proportion of the potential increased frequency is desirable ... then it's a conflict between even more frequent trains, and avoiding the need to interchange on half of the Northern Line journeys between anywhere central and anywhere northern (which is a lot of the Northern Line's journeys).

    Personally, I don't see the answer to that as obvious. After all, it's always possible to reduce the proportion of "inter-switching" between branches at certain times, to relieve pressure on the schedule (as happens at times now anyway), without "formally" separating the lines at all times so that there can never be the chance to avoid a CT interchange ... and that's not exactly an easy interchange at busy times!
     
  13. rebmcr

    rebmcr Established Member

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    Which is the very same situation which has led TfL to indefinitely delay the splitting plans, until after Camden Town is rebuilt.
     
  14. AlbertBeale

    AlbertBeale Member

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    Aha - thanks for that. (I should have know that information.) Though I won't prejudge what the best way to balance the factors is when/if that has finally happened; but I accept it might be enough to make me change my mind! No promises though...
     
  15. Mikey C

    Mikey C Established Member

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    That's not going to work now, as vast numbers of new flats are being built at for example Colindale, increasing loads at the extremities of the line
     
  16. Flinn Reed

    Flinn Reed Member

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    I think there certainly is merit is such as a system across the underground network, but perhaps not for the Northern line, due to developments near Colindale as mentioned.

    For example, from my experience, the Jubilee Line tends to be significantly less busy north of West Hampstead, with the only exception being when events are on at Wembley, while the DLR also duplicates the Canning Town-Stratford section. With no new trains on order anymore for the Jubilee Line, a larger proportion of services could be revised to operate between North Greenwich and West Hampstead/Wembley Park, increasing the frequency through the core section. Trains are very frequent at stations between Kingsbury and Stanmore and there is not the demand at most times.

    With the Northern Line, I only think it makes sense to terminate trains early (to increase frequencies along the core section) if the line were to split. With new developments around Colindale and Nine Elms/Battersea, the Edgware-Battersea line would need all trains to continue through the entire line. However, the High Barnet-Morden line could potentially include short workings, depending on where it is possible for trains to terminate, possibly along the lines of Archway to Balham. Some High Barnet services could even be diverted to replace the Mill Hill East shuttle.
     
  17. ijmad

    ijmad Established Member

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    If the Northern Line is split, I wonder if we might see a follow-on order of the New Tube for London for just one of the newly created lines. The freed up rolling stock could then be cascaded to the other line, and the Jubilee line. This would be after 2033 though, when the 1995ts would be 38 years old. It may be time to replace the whole lot by then.
     
  18. Flinn Reed

    Flinn Reed Member

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    I completely agree that the Northern Line needs to be split after the Battersea extension, especially to avoid confusion. Both the District and Northern lines are unique and confusing in only having one station that all branches serve. The District Line would be too difficult to split, as many Wimbledon services continue via Victoria/Embankment (and set to increase when the Piccadilly Line takes over the Ealing Broadway branch). However, the Northern Line would be much easier to split at Camden Town.

    To avoid confusion further, I think both new lines should take a new name, the name 'Northern' is somewhat confusing anyway when half of the line is in South London. Looking at names from before the sections of the Northern Line were merged, I would name the Edgware-Battersea route the 'Hampstead Line' (after Hampstead/Euston/Charing Cross Railway) and name the Barnet-Morden route the 'City Line' (after the City & South London Railway).

    The City & South London Line was always coloured black, so could keep this colour on the tube map. Meanwhile, the Hampstead line would take a new colour, such as:
    - A dark grey, or dark indigo (reflecting the original Hampstead & Euston Railway)
    - Beige or gold
    - Salmon/coral (partly reflecting the red once used for the Hampstead Railway on some old tube maps)
    - An alternative green that is not too similar to the District/Tram/W&C
    - Or revive the Amber colour from the withdrawn East London line (wouldn't clash with the Overground as both were once on the tube map together)

    With the Night Tube, the Bank branch could simply be added to the network, with both new lines running overnight (except for the Mill Hill East branch)
     
  19. MikeWh

    MikeWh Established Member Senior Fares Advisor

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    They can't both be unique. And which one of Euston, Camden Town or Kennington is the only station served by all branches?
     
  20. bramling

    bramling Established Member

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    If you regard Mill Hill as a branch, there’s only one station on the Northern Line from where it’s possible to reach every Northern Line destination at all times of day without having to change trains, and that station is Finchley Central.
     
  21. rebmcr

    rebmcr Established Member

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    Heh, sneaky!
     
  22. AlbertBeale

    AlbertBeale Member

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    Finchley Central to Edgware without changing trains?? Really? Maybe, depending on the diagrams, if you hid on the train while it went round the Kennington Loop....!
     
  23. ijmad

    ijmad Established Member

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    You don't need to hide. It's colour signalled and can carry passengers around it. Usually the drivers make a few stern announcements and off you go. I've been around it twice, mainly when I've had visitors from out of town I'm trying to spook.

    If there's a dispatcher on the platform and they spot you, they might have words with you but this seems fairly rare.

    Just pretend to be asleep...
     
  24. bramling

    bramling Established Member

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    Yes that’s the wild-card. To be fair many trains tend to be Edgware-Kennington-Edgware and Barnet-Kennington-Barnet in the current timetable.

    Going round the loop isn’t a problem, although technically the train is shown as empty in the timetable.
     
  25. AlbertBeale

    AlbertBeale Member

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    Wonderful - I don't know why it's never occurred to me to try to go round it. I'm not usually the sort who worries about what the rules are.....

    I must give it a go sometime!

    NB - do services terminating at Kennington [from the Charing Cross branch I mean, obviously] always go round the loop and never use the reversing siding which Bank terminators have to use (given that Ch X trains can also access that siding.)
     
  26. bramling

    bramling Established Member

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    Nowadays virtually everything uses the loop. I forget if there’s any booked exceptions (if so they will only be at very extreme times of day). Otherwise an early train might go via the siding to put it back in the correct order, or occasionally instructors may request to go via the siding if they have a trainee who needs to learn the move. In all such cases the train will be tipped out beforehand.

    Otherwise going round the loop isn’t a problem. Best thing to do is simply to sit st the very rear of the train. Watch out for drivers doing odd things whilst going round the loop to try and discourage handles being pulled. One driver sings YMCA over the PA all the way round, for example. (Yes, seriously!).
     
  27. AlbertBeale

    AlbertBeale Member

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    This is sounding more and more enticing...

    Does tube stock still have separately delineated "ends" like years ago? And if so, would Northern Line trains using the loop then need to go round it an even number of times in the day, before stabling at night?
     
  28. bramling

    bramling Established Member

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    No the 95 stock is not handed. Funnily enough there was a trivia question in the control room last week about how one would go about organising a “turning” trip. With it being roughly 20 years since this was last required, few knew what this was leading to some head-scratching on how to do it. The correct answer is Morden, reverse Charing Cross, once round Kennington loop, reverse Charing Cross again, and back to Morden.
     
  29. ijmad

    ijmad Established Member

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    I noticed they seem to have added a specific PIS announcement for the loop, which I don't recall hearing when I last did it couple of years ago (audible at 0:40 in this video). Is this automatic, or manually triggered by drivers who won't want to sing?
     
  30. Ambient Sheep

    Ambient Sheep Member

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    I can't quite catch what she's saying in the middle of that announcement, and I've even tried headphones, to no avail.

    "Customers requiring... ??? ...should contact the driver using the passenger alarm."

    Anybody have any ideas?
     

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