22nd February - Roadmap out of the pandemic, lifting of restrictions.

[bramling]

True. I suppose you could put in a law limiting how long parliamentary sovereignty could be suspended in the name of 'emergency powers'. But you couldn't stop parliament giving that limit up.

We have a law that if a petition receives a certain number of signatures, it has to get a debate in parliament. If we really believed in democracy, we'd give a threshold at which the petition triggered a legally binding referendum (would be constitutionally repealable by parliament of course, butt it would be tricky for them to do).

The thought of a referendum fills me with horror. “Would you like 15 months being paid 80% salary in return for loosely staying at home through the winter months?”. Lockdown it is, then!

A starting point is to look at the emergency powers used over the last year to avoid measures being properly debated.

 

[Class 33]

Just been to the shops to get some essential shopping(!!!) and it practically feels like a normal Saturday night out there! A reasonable amount of traffic, including a number of cars going by playing crappy R 'n B music! And there's a fair old amount of teenagers/early 20's in groups walking about and hanging about. They're in groups of 3's, 4's, 5's, 6's, and I even spotted one group of 9! Yet "The rule of 6" isn't due to return until 29th March! I don't blame them really though, as all these ridiculous restrictions are just dragging on for far too long, and many people are unhappy and restless, they want to get out and about and also meet their friends. All the hospital numbers and deaths numbers have really come down considerably over the past month and will continue to fall, what with all these millions of vaccinations happening every week, and the most vulnerable people all vaccinated now. We need a faster route out of lockdown and all these restrictions really.

My fear is though that Johnson is well aware of the growing number of people not complying strictly with the restrictions, and may decide to punish all of us by delaying the easing of lockdown. This would be unacceptable. As long as the hospital numbers and deaths are continueing to fall, then the lockdown/restrictions easing should go ahead as planned(if not even faster).

 

[duncanp]

The thought of a referendum fills me with horror. “Would you like 15 months being paid 80% salary in return for loosely staying at home through the winter months?”. Lockdown it is, then!

A starting point is to look at the emergency powers used over the last year to avoid measures being properly debated.

This ties in with the "What would you like to see in the budget" thread.

What I would like to see in the budget is a clear statement that the lockdowns and restrictions we have been living under for nearly a year now are unaffordable and cannot be used as a way of tackling pandemics or diseases like this in the future.

It is all very well having a referendum saying "Would you like 15 months being paid 80% salary in return for loosely staying at home through the winter months?", but you then also need another one saying "Would you like to pay 2p in the £ extra in income tax, and see a tax raid on your pensions, savings... etc. etc"

The problem is that until now, those advocating strict lockdowns have either been unaware of the costs involved, or have swept these costs under the carpet because they are largely unaffected.

I really hope the budget next week gives everyone, but the locktivists in particular, a rude awakening, and makes them realise that we cannot repeat this again in the future.

You only have to look at the austerity that followed the Second World War, with food rationing not ending until 1954, and the UK's final repayments on war loans received from the US and Canada made in 2006.

 

[philosopher]

Just been to the shops to get some essential shopping(!!!) and it practically feels like a normal Saturday night out there! A reasonable amount of traffic, including a number of cars going by playing crappy R 'n B music! And there's a fair old amount of teenagers/early 20's in groups walking about and hanging about. They're in groups of 3's, 4's, 5's, 6's, and I even spotted one group of 9! Yet "The rule of 6" isn't due to return until 29th March! I don't blame them really though, as all these ridiculous restrictions are just dragging on for far too long, and many people are unhappy and restless, they want to get out and about and also meet their friends. All the hospital numbers and deaths numbers have really come down considerably over the past month and will continue to fall, what with all these millions of vaccinations happening every week, and the most vulnerable people all vaccinated now. We need a faster route out of lockdown and all these restrictions really.

My fear is though that Johnson is well aware of the growing number of people not complying strictly with the restrictions, and may decide to punish all of us by delaying the easing of lockdown. This would be unacceptable. As long as the hospital numbers and deaths are continueing to fall, then the lockdown/restrictions easing should go ahead as planned(if not even faster).

I walked past Borough Market in London today and it was as busy as a normal Saturday, with long queues outside the food stalls and coffee shops and quite a few people standing around chatting in groups.

I did see a couple of policemen who after I had walked past did appear to shout something through a loudspeaker which I am guessing was to tell them to go home.

 

[yorksrob]

The thought of a referendum fills me with horror. “Would you like 15 months being paid 80% salary in return for loosely staying at home through the winter months?”. Lockdown it is, then!

A starting point is to look at the emergency powers used over the last year to avoid measures being properly debated.

I doubt very much that your view is unique.

Perhaps we're not quite that mature as a democracy.

On the other hand, contrary to popular opinion, perhaps the fact that the referenda we've had so far (thinking of Brexit and Indy ref) have been so close, suggests that we're a very balanced nation of balanced opinions.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Good to hear people send them packing. Those police need to sod off. They go on about guidelines and get within 2m to tell people about them. The public have had enough of this authoritarianism.

I've lost a lot of respect for the police and I know many others have too.

Need to be careful here the Police are just agents of the state and can't decide what is right or wrong. Our beef is with those that have legislated this situation.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Good to hear people send them packing. Those police need to sod off. They go on about guidelines and get within 2m to tell people about them. The public have had enough of this authoritarianism.

I've lost a lot of respect for the police and I know many others have too.


#EnoughIsEnough

If you look closely at the beach scene, just beyond the man with the orange Sainsburys carrier bag, two people are hugging !!
Surprised they weren’t taken out by a rooftop sniper ...

 

[35B]

I doubt very much that your view is unique.

Perhaps we're not quite that mature as a democracy.

On the other hand, contrary to popular opinion, perhaps the fact that the referenda we've had so far (thinking of Brexit and Indy ref) have been so close, suggests that we're a very balanced nation of balanced opinions.

I’ve heard those described as many things, but never before as “balanced”

Good to hear people send them packing. Those police need to sod off. They go on about guidelines and get within 2m to tell people about them. The public have had enough of this authoritarianism.

I've lost a lot of respect for the police and I know many others have too.


#EnoughIsEnough

Authoritarianism is asking people to respect guidelines, and backing off when told no? That sounds like policing by consent to me.

 

[yorksrob]

I’ve heard those described as many things, but never before as “balanced”

In neither example can you describe the population as having been swayed by a particular point of view. They remained stubbornly split.

 

[Cdd89]

Authoritarianism is asking people to respect guidelines, and backing off when told no? That sounds like policing by consent to me.

I might agree except - can a police officer “ask” someone to change their behaviour without that request containing an implicit threat? Increasingly I think not.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I can't see anything in the roadmap as to when leisure travel with no limits will be allowed!

April 12th within the UK ( which probably just means England ).

May 17th possibly for international leisure travel being permitted, but obviously the choice may be limited according to what other countries say about tourism at their end.

 

[Watershed]

Authoritarianism is asking people to respect guidelines

Yes, if those guidelines have no logical (epidemiological) basis. And in all circumstances where they go beyond the law.

Having some level of restrictions achieves the delay in infections that lockdowns are designed for, but beyond a certain point it is simply counterproductive, e.g. by limiting outdoor gatherings, you force them indoors where it is riskier.

The police should take a sensible approach; they should not be enforcing minor breaches of the restrictions where their attendance and close contact with suspects is the riskiest activity that is happening!

 

[bramling]

I’ve heard those described as many things, but never before as “balanced”


Authoritarianism is asking people to respect guidelines, and backing off when told no? That sounds like policing by consent to me.

The difficulty is this whole thing has been managed in such a dysfunctional manner that many of our normal expectations are blown away.

For a start we have a funny grey area between law and guidance, which some people (including politicians and police) have skewed into an even more vague concept of “rules”, all of which is open to some degree of interpretation. These themselves have changed so many times it’s difficult for anyone to keep up.

Then there’s stuff which just doesn’t really make good sense. I can spend 8 hours at work with someone, but I can’t then have them round to my garden afterwards.

On top of that, we have the unprecedented situation that parliamentary scrutiny has been pretty much non-existent, and add in that media scrutiny has been rather one-sided. I’d have more respect for all this if established processes had been followed.

As if that’s enough, we have seen people like Cummings and Ferguson bending or breaking the rules, worse then seeing Cummings steadfastly defended by Johnson.

Is it any wonder people are rather cynical about all this?

 

[yorkie]

Authoritarianism is asking people to respect guidelines, and backing off when told no? That sounds like policing by consent to me.

They backed off because they were massively outnumbered and people were making it clear their 'advice' was unwelcome, but police should never be behaving this way. Remember they have picked on smaller groups and not backed down.

If you think the current status quo is acceptable, well clearly we have very differing views on authoritarianism.

The general public are fed up of it and rightly so.

 

[yorksrob]

The difficulty is this whole thing has been managed in such a dysfunctional manner that many of our normal expectations are blown away.

For a start we have a funny grey area between law and guidance, which some people (including politicians and police) have skewed into an even more vague concept of “rules”, all of which is open to some degree of interpretation. These themselves have changed so many times it’s difficult for anyone to keep up.

Then there’s stuff which just doesn’t really make good sense. I can spend 8 hours at work with someone, but I can’t then have them round to my garden afterwards.

On top of that, we have the unprecedented situation that parliamentary scrutiny has been pretty much non-existent, and add in that media scrutiny has been rather one-sided. I’d have more respect for all this if established processes had been followed.

As if that’s enough, we have seen people like Cummings and Ferguson bending or breaking the rules, worse then seeing Cummings steadfastly defended by Johnson.

Is it any wonder people are rather cynical about all this?

Indeed.

I don't even think it's down to the dysfunctional manner of Government.

The laws are so arbitrary, unscrutinised and poorly designed that they don't inspire observence.

 

[bramling]

They backed off because they were massively outnumbered and people were making it clear their 'advice' was unwelcome, but police should never be behaving this way. Remember they have picked on smaller groups and not backed down.

If you think the current status quo is acceptable, well clearly we have very differing views on authoritarianism.

The general public are fed up of it and rightly so.

I think much of the police are just as fed up with it as everyone else, though clearly there are exceptions - for example the footage we saw of the dog-walker in Wales.

Apart from such exceptions, I tend to go with the view that we should be more angry with those who have created this situation, rather than those who enforcing it has been dumped upon.

Indeed.

I don't even think it's down to the dysfunctional manner of Government.

The laws are so arbitrary, unscrutinised and poorly designed that they don't inspire observence.

They kind of do if you’re happy to brick up your windows and stay indoors, only venturing out for stuff like work, buying food, basic exercise, et cetera.

The difficulty is that most people are fed up with this, and having assessed the situation for themselves have concluded that they are not prepared to live like this. There’s then a difficulty in that it becomes difficult for people to go up to the boundaries, as the boundaries are so vague and clumsy, as is the enforcement. For example, it seems that I can drive as far as I like providing its for exercise when I get there, though does this apply if I cross a border into somewhere like Wales, can I use public transport, and seemingly people have been fined for same.

A complete muddled mess.

 

[yorksrob]

The difficulty is that most people are fed up with this, and having assessed the situation for themselves have concluded that they are not prepared to live like this. There’s then a difficulty in that it becomes difficult for people to go up to the boundaries, as the boundaries are so vague and clumsy, as is the enforcement. For example, it seems that I can drive as far as I like providing its for exercise when I get there, though does this apply if I cross a border into somewhere like Wales, can I use public transport, and seemingly people have been fined for same.

A complete muddled mess.

Indeed. I have a friend from Wigan who enjoys visiting the local nature reserves, When he says he's limited in where he can visit, I say Wigan is in the County Paletine of Lancashire, so he should be able to count the whole county as local.

 

[DorkingMain]

Need to be careful here the Police are just agents of the state and can't decide what is right or wrong. Our beef is with those that have legislated this situation.

The problem is they've been put into a position by the uncomfortable soup of legislation, guidance and "discretion" where they are now basically forced to try and decide what is right and wrong.

At all stages, there's been all sorts of ridiculous overreaching police enforcement. Giving people fines for not having masks despite them providing evidence of being medically exempt, fining people for having a "picnic" because they were carrying a coffee.

The job of the police should be to enforce the law, not decide what the law is. During this pandemic they've been increasingly forced to do so.

 

[Richard Scott]

The job of the police should be to enforce the law, not decide what the law is. During this pandemic they've been increasingly forced to do so.

Agree with first sentence but not the second. Think some have chosen to decide what the law is. If they were unsure then should exercise discretion, not decide that someone is breaking the law.

 

[Reliablebeam]

I had to go into Oxford today to run some essential personal and professional errands. I actually passed two constables out on foot patrol. One of them I overheard saying ' nobody is following this anymore are they? What are we supposed to do?'

The train journey from GWR was fine and the staff very cheerful as they have been throughout!

 

[bramling]

Agree with first sentence but not the second. Think some have chosen to decide what the law is. If they were unsure then should exercise discretion, not decide that someone is breaking the law.

This is still largely down to the politicians (IMO), by creating this stupid triangle of law, guidance and “rules”. The police shouldn’t be in the position where there’s so much scope for interpretations.

Just look at how messy the whole thing is regarding masks. On the one hand one doesn’t need to carry proof of exemption, yet on the other someone can be fined and potentially have to go to court to get it overturned every single time they enter a shop.

This is one reason I want this useless incompetent prime minister and cabinet ousted as soon as possible, they’re completely unfit for purpose.

 

[HSTEd]

My employer (University) recommends I carry a letter with me stating I am a key worker travelling to a lab to conduct a zoom session.

I've decided not to bother.
If a policeman challenges me I will simply offer them a choice between believing me, or issuing a FPN, which I won't pay, leading to a court action that I will inevitably win.

 

[35B]

They backed off because they were massively outnumbered and people were making it clear their 'advice' was unwelcome, but police should never be behaving this way. Remember they have picked on smaller groups and not backed down.

If you think the current status quo is acceptable, well clearly we have very differing views on authoritarianism.

The general public are fed up of it and rightly so.

So police should never act unless certain that they are intervening to correct a breach of the law?

I stand by my view that what was displayed there was reasonable policing conduct, proportionately deployed. What may or may not have happened elsewhere is not relevant to that incident.

Whether government policy is right or wrong is a different question; I also observe the findings about outbreaks outdoors last summer.

 

[kez19]

So police should never act unless certain that they are intervening to correct a breach of the law?

I stand by my view that what was displayed there was reasonable policing conduct, proportionately deployed. What may or may not have happened elsewhere is not relevant to that incident.

Whether government policy is right or wrong is a different question; I also observe the findings about outbreaks outdoors last summer.

Yet when it comes to our politicians that breach laws it’s a free pass, the public are taken as fools?

Strange that was it not recently for people going for a walk the police fined them (took fine back) but classed as a picnic? I’m sorry but that’s the joke - no one has a clue what they are doing from governments to the police but still let’s milk the situation though with fines?

You mentioned outbreaks outdoors also strange protests broke out but not a blip.

 

[yorksrob]

You mentioned outbreaks outdoors also strange protests broke out but not a blip.

And all those crowded beaches in Bournemouth.

Again, not a blip.

 

[Cdd89]

What may or may not have happened elsewhere is not relevant to that incident.

Of course it is; it informed the reactions of the crowd.

So police should never act unless certain that they are intervening to correct a breach of the law?

Based on the behaviour of bad police forces (not just individual officers), I think that is now the only recourse left to the police. There needs to be a lot of damage repaired before the police can have a productive relationship with communities again.

If you disagree, what do you think about these notes left on windshields to “enforce guidance”?

My only conclusion from this is that the police know they are overstepping, but see fit to threaten people with stories of increased fines at court if they do not pay an FPN based on guidance and not law.

https://twitter.com/adamwagner1/status/1365795950934061064?s=21

The law states “no person may be outside of the place where they are living without reasonable excuse”. A lawful exception includes exercise outdoors.

Government guidance states that you should minimise time spent outside your home, but you can leave your home to exercise and this should be limited to once per day, and you should not travel outside your local area.

Government guidance states that if you do leave home for a permitted reason, you should stay local. This means stay in the village, town, or part of the city where you live.

Government guidance states that you should exercise in green spaces locally wherever possible, but you can travel a short distance within your area if necessary.

The guidance provides parameters by which police officers and magistrates can interpret and apply the law, and decide what is reasonable.

I do not believe the circumstances of this vehicle being present at this location to be a reasonable interpretation of the exemption to restrictions of movement.

Should you travel unnecessarily, you may be subject to a fixed penalty notice of £200. Our experience has shown that those who have disagreed with our interpretation of the law, and contested their FPN at court, have received significantly higher fines.

I recommend that you adhere to the well published advice: stay at home; stay local; protect the NHS. Beauty spots can wait – The Yorkshire Dales will still be here when the pandemic is over.

 

[LAX54]

Given the NHS is the 'envy of the world', imagine how bad it must be elsewhere.

I hate to think, but when you scan the web and see some of the stories...........!

 

[philosopher]

Of course it is; it informed the reactions of the crowd.


Based on the behaviour of bad police forces (not just individual officers), I think that is now the only recourse left to the police. There needs to be a lot of damage repaired before the police can have a productive relationship with communities again.

If you disagree, what do you think about these notes left on windshields to “enforce guidance”?

My only conclusion from this is that the police know they are overstepping, but see fit to threaten people with stories of increased fines at court if they do not pay an FPN based on guidance and not law.

https://twitter.com/adamwagner1/status/1365795950934061064?s=21[/URL

My two concerns with this are:

First how is local area defined. How far do I need to travel before it is no longer local. It is quite open to interpretation. For example a 20 mile cycle ride starting and ending from your home would take you some distance from your home, but it is still solely exercise and does not involve any non exercise travel.

Second, is the assumption that the drivers of those cars are breaking the law. The police cannot know everyone individual circumstances. For example some of them may have driven there because that green space is less crowded than one nearer where they live.

 

[Bantamzen]

The issue is how is local area defined. How far do I need to travel before it is no longer local. It is quite open to interpretation. For example a 20 mile cycle ride starting and ending from your home would take you some distance from your home, but it is still solely exercise and does not involve any non exercise travel.

Well if you go by the letter of the law it all depends on where you live. If you happen to live in London you've got the whole city to explore, if you live in Dent, well not so much. Its why this is a totally stupid idea in the first place, and why people choose to ignore it.

 

[route101]

I had to go into Oxford today to run some essential personal and professional errands. I actually passed two constables out on foot patrol. One of them I overheard saying ' nobody is following this anymore are they? What are we supposed to do?'

The train journey from GWR was fine and the staff very cheerful as they have been throughout!

I passed through Glasgow Central other day, two police officers were walking around, not checking if anyone's journey was essential!