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22nd February - Roadmap out of the pandemic, lifting of restrictions.

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PR1Berske

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I’m not sure if you read my post #2,892? If so what are your thoughts?

This forum didn’t start out as an “echo chamber”, in fact I supported (or at least understood the reasons for) the first lockdown. With hindsight I’m not convinced it was the right course of action but I understand why it happened. What we’ve seen since though is different; a doubling down on questionable and in some cases downright ineffective restrictions and a wanton disregard for the wider issues affecting society. The media, and even more unforgivingly SAGE (which really is an echo chamber), have provoked hysteria, and that’s what this is. Cherry picked statistics, sensationalist headlines, and unsubstantiated claims regarding “variants” and “long covid” have led to people losing all sense of perspective. This a virus with a circa 1% IFR heavily biased towards easily identifiable vulnerable groups. Think about that, and think about what we’ve done in response; the damage caused is incalculable and I believe this is only the beginning.

Your post had me thinking, it really did, and of the enormity of all this has always been on my mind. There are no easy answers or solutions to the loss of businesses, just as there are no easy answers to the loss of life, or any of the terrible consequences of coronavirus. I remember a year ago, when Italy was locked down, France was locking down, the great wave of decisions that had to be made, and how Boris seemed to fluff and flounder, determined to resist calls to shut down as late as possible, and how the "lockdown Friday" turned into one last piss-up, to last a couple of weeks and that'd be the end of it. I remember not fully appreciating the size of this thing, the consequences of it all, and not fully realising just how many lives were changing as a result of it.

I'm sorry, genuinely, to hear of any person whose livelihoods have been lost because the necessary and right decision to instigate lockdown. If they're in serious financial problems, I'm sorry, I have no solution, I have no help or assistance. I hope that those who are able can reignite the spark of ingenuity they had to start one business to help start another.

On another forum I visit this discussion momentarily touched on the enormity of Covid being a reminder that we're just animals on a rock in space, and all manner of outside forces can suddenly change our lives without any warning, without apology, and from the tiniest delay on a bus to an asteroid smashing into outer Mongolia, all these issues can wake us up from our increasingly individualistic lives and remind us how interconnected and interdependent we are. Not to get all Adam Curtis, but we have been encouraged over the last 10 or 15 years to think and act as individuals - we have our sole profiles on many Internet sites with our sole preferences and sole playlists and sole algorithms. We type into messageboards and chat-rooms how we're living our sole lives, and have sole opinions, and no MSM will change our minds, and no forum admin is going to shut us down or delete our posts or whatever, and suddenly Covid-19 comes along and we have to (well, we should) realise that it's not constructive to think, act and live that way. Suddenly our individualistic, selfish, inward lives are shattered because it's dangerous to hang around in crowds in case we spread a disease. Of course it'll take a moment to go "Oh hell, my actions have consequences". I think some parts of the anti-lockdown sentiment comes from not being able to calculate this switch, not able to accept that governments can order us inside, that an outside disease can shatter our complacency.
 
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DustyBin

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To be a little frank though: I could say the same about some of this thread. Every statement which expresses uncertainty or hesitancy is evidence that the ground is being laid for permanent restrictions or future lockdowns. I don't think the thread is quite anti-lockdown, but it is clearly pro-absolute-minimization-of-lockdown, and every bit of data for that is brought carefully forward, while data against it is dismissed.

I'd point to the response to Johnson's attribution of the majority of the case-decline in 2021 to lockdowns rather than vaccinations - multiple posters decried this claim, argued it's making way for future lockdowns, and at best retreated to a "it's not a helpful thing to say" position, despite the fact that it's a perfectly reasonable point to make (and I am no Johnson fan!)

That's not meant to sound too critical - I think having spaces where different views are discussed is good and this thread has definitely made me, someone who'd be inclined towards more cautious (but not more restrictive) forms of lockdown, change my views on some matters. There are very well-informed people who make excellent arguments here. But nothing I've seen makes me think that this forum is any less (or more) inclined towards hysteria, paranoia or unsubstantiated claims than most other forums or social media that I've encountered (Facebook excepted). The 'direction' of views is different but the quality seems similar, both for good and for bad.

The problem I have (and one seemingly shared by many on here) is that I have lost all trust in the government and their advisors. I say that as a (C)conservative incidentally. I occasionally take a step back and check my own sense of perspective, but I can’t get away from the feeling that they’re “boiling the frog”. Meanwhile, those who openly promote the imposition of permanent restrictions and/or changes to our way of life go unchallenged. I think a level of mistrust is perfectly understandable.

I was one of the posters who decried Johnson’s claim regarding lockdown vs the vaccines. I found what we said (or perhaps more the way he said it) quite alarming. We’re trying to vaccinate our way to normality and yet the PM appears on TV and announces that it’s lockdown not vaccines that have brought hospitalisations and deaths down. I’m not going to debate whether that’s technically correct as it doesn’t matter in the context of this discussion, but saying what he said does nothing to encourage people to get vaccinated and could very easily be seen as an attempt to promote and normalise lockdowns. There was no mention of how effective the vaccines are and how they are expected to keep cases down going forward, which I find rather strange.

What would give me great reassurance is for somebody, preferably the PM, to openly and clearly state that we are aiming to return to full normality. They don’t need to over-promise, there will inevitably be “tests” to pass on the way, but a simple commitment to returning to full normality would buy back a bit of trust. At no point however has this assurance been given. There is however a lot of talk about permanent mask wearing, vaccine passports etc. which goes unfettered which for me begs the question: Why?
 
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brad465

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A piece that when I read it made me wonder how much worse those figures would be had mobility restrictions not been applied.

My limited experience of the NHS this year is that they have done a lot to keep treating people, but taking care not to make patients more ill by spreading disease.
It's a horrifying number, but it does rather come back to a "what else could we do*" - no restrictions and unchecked covid spread (as seems to be implied as your preferred situation) would have resulted in more patients in hospitals and likely even more cancelled operations and larger backlog. There's no way to "win" with covid

*short of an impossible NZ like near-eradication
While "do-nothing" was never an option, and even those opposed to lockdowns agree with this (besides the minority of covid deniers perhaps), what we fail to understand/realise is that there is going to be suffering and loss somewhere. Sad as this is, death is inevitable one way or another, and humans are not exceptional, even though we subconsciously think we are. The question is are we getting the right balance right, which as these restrictions drag on seems less and less likely.

Regardless of what level of restrictions was necessary, lack of healthcare staff, capacity and proper management of the health service have all been insufficient, something Exercise Cygnus was believed to have highlighted despite many attempts to bury its contents from public view.
 

yorksrob

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It's a horrifying number, but it does rather come back to a "what else could we do*" - no restrictions and unchecked covid spread (as seems to be implied as your preferred situation) would have resulted in more patients in hospitals and likely even more cancelled operations and larger backlog. There's no way to "win" with covid

*short of an impossible NZ like near-eradication

I still think that in time, the approach taken by Sweden will largely be vindicated (fully admitting that like every country they've made mistakes and had setbacks).
 

Dent

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I'm sorry, genuinely, to hear of any person whose livelihoods have been lost because the necessary and right decision to instigate lockdown.

You claim to be genuinely sorry, yet you still call the decision which has caused all that damage "necessary and right" without question. Do you not think that the damage caused should have been considered before making that decision, and is a strong reason to question whether the decision really was "necessary and right"?

It is rather insincere to claim to be "genuinely sorry" for the suffering caused by lockdown, yet declare the thing that caused that suffering to be "necessary and right" with no thought or regard to the suffering it causes.
 

roversfan2001

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I think some parts of the anti-lockdown sentiment comes from not being able to calculate this switch, not able to accept that governments can order us inside, that an outside disease can shatter our complacency.
How very patronising. On the flip side, I think parts (read 'most') of the pro-lockdown crowd think the way they do because they can't see the damage restrictions cause, either because they're sheltered from it (for now), or because they choose not to think about it. Disease has been around since the dawn of time; SARS-CoV-2 isn't even a particularly nasty virus either, the overall IFR is very low and the groups of people that it is a material risk for are easily identifiable, and appropriate actions can be taken to protect them.

The first lockdown was understandable as we didn't know much about the potential threat we were facing. However, that lockdown dragged on far too long and we opened up too late in the summer and then failed to prepare the NHS for any resurgence. The billions of pounds that has been spent on furlough and mass testing could have been spent on improving the NHS, and on exploring treatments for those who do suffer from Covid. We've done fantastically well with the vaccine rollout, which should absolutely 100% negate any need for any further restrictions on people's freedom, and we should never allow lockdowns to become a general tool to combat any increase in mortality from respiratory diseases. It was never done before and should never be done again.
 

Bantamzen

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Thank you.

Discussion forums are the old-fashioned workhorses of the Internet. Many different trends have been and gone, and somehow the messageboard remains, hanging on there with its clunky interface and all the rest of it. What messageboards encourage is a rapid closing down of debate, truly ironic. I've noticed elsewhere that threads can become rather self-congratulatory and anybody who walks in with a counter view can feel like a stranger in a local pub, suddenly having to sit and listen rather than stand and contribute.
There is probably nothing more depressing on a discussion forum than someone refusing to debate points made to them, and then claiming they are being "shut down". You are not being shut down at all, you just don't seem to want to engage in actual debate about many of the points made by myself and others on this thread.

I did suggest previously that you take a bit of time to read through at least a good proportion of it, I'm assuming by your responses since you have not. However had you done so you would have had an insight into why some of us think the way we do.

Your post had me thinking, it really did, and of the enormity of all this has always been on my mind. There are no easy answers or solutions to the loss of businesses, just as there are no easy answers to the loss of life, or any of the terrible consequences of coronavirus. I remember a year ago, when Italy was locked down, France was locking down, the great wave of decisions that had to be made, and how Boris seemed to fluff and flounder, determined to resist calls to shut down as late as possible, and how the "lockdown Friday" turned into one last piss-up, to last a couple of weeks and that'd be the end of it. I remember not fully appreciating the size of this thing, the consequences of it all, and not fully realising just how many lives were changing as a result of it.

I'm sorry, genuinely, to hear of any person whose livelihoods have been lost because the necessary and right decision to instigate lockdown. If they're in serious financial problems, I'm sorry, I have no solution, I have no help or assistance. I hope that those who are able can reignite the spark of ingenuity they had to start one business to help start another.

On another forum I visit this discussion momentarily touched on the enormity of Covid being a reminder that we're just animals on a rock in space, and all manner of outside forces can suddenly change our lives without any warning, without apology, and from the tiniest delay on a bus to an asteroid smashing into outer Mongolia, all these issues can wake us up from our increasingly individualistic lives and remind us how interconnected and interdependent we are. Not to get all Adam Curtis, but we have been encouraged over the last 10 or 15 years to think and act as individuals - we have our sole profiles on many Internet sites with our sole preferences and sole playlists and sole algorithms. We type into messageboards and chat-rooms how we're living our sole lives, and have sole opinions, and no MSM will change our minds, and no forum admin is going to shut us down or delete our posts or whatever, and suddenly Covid-19 comes along and we have to (well, we should) realise that it's not constructive to think, act and live that way. Suddenly our individualistic, selfish, inward lives are shattered because it's dangerous to hang around in crowds in case we spread a disease. Of course it'll take a moment to go "Oh hell, my actions have consequences". I think some parts of the anti-lockdown sentiment comes from not being able to calculate this switch, not able to accept that governments can order us inside, that an outside disease can shatter our complacency.
I hate to be the one to break it to you but covid is not the only thing that comes as a consequence of our actions. For example, you have mentioned that you work in the health service, and so you will also be aware that in England NHS staff are being offered a pay rise less than was previously expected. Why do you suppose that is? The answer is simple, the vast cost of covid restrictions, testing, vaccinations, nightingale hospitals that were barely used, procurement of equipment that was unsuitable, furlough payments, lost tax revenue, etc, etc, etc. By calling for more & longer restrictions, you are calling for even more cost & even more lost revenue, which will translate directly into public sector cuts such as you are seeing with pay rises. I have just past 34 years in the public sector, and I've seen this kind of thing time and again.

As for your points on society, you really think individualism came about in the social media age? Because I would strongly disagree, its been around for decades, and in some quarters centuries. The fact that most people obeyed the rules & regulations around covid was not a giant exercise in altruism, it came about because people were scared silly by overly aggressive messaging make people feel that they were at risk of dropping dead on the spot, or worse still being blamed for someone else dropping dead. It was a highly effective method to be fair, but now risks the mental wellbeing of millions of people. Yet you seem not to care about this, only covid. Similar with people whose livelihoods have gone down the swanny. Never mind you say, it isn't covid.

Covid is not the be-all and end-all, it is not a doomsday virus, it will not bring about our end. Even now the virus strains that cause it are settling into their new environments, that is us. It isn't going to be eradicated, it isn't going away. We have more than enough data, knowledge , treatments and vaccines to make this no more than another seasonal virus that we have to put up with. Some people will get sick, some will die, but this is nothing new under the sun. Influenza for example has been at it for as long as we have medical records & beyond, my own sister succumb to it when she was just 30 years & very healthy. We have had seasons where 50-60K have died in a period of a few months, yet we had no lockdowns, no restrictions, no panic.

What you are seeing is what happens when politicians get spooked, and look for ways not to be blamed. None of this panic was necessary, we should have learned that lesson early on. Some of us have.
 

Eyersey468

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You claim to be genuinely sorry, yet you still call the decision which has caused all that damage "necessary and right" without question. Do you not think that the damage caused should have been considered before making that decision, and is a strong reason to question whether the decision really was "necessary and right"?

It is rather insincere to claim to be "genuinely sorry" for the suffering caused by lockdown, yet declare the thing that caused that suffering to be "necessary and right" with no thought or regard to the suffering it causes.
I agree that the damage and suffering that lockdowns cause should be taken into account when deciding on any course of action, one of the criticisms I have is that no form of cost benefit analysis ever seemed to get done. From the beginning I felt the damage caused would outweigh any good that they do. The governments actions have caused me to lose all faith in them
 

Cdd89

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I think some parts of the anti-lockdown sentiment comes from not being able to accept that governments can order us inside, that an outside disease can shatter our complacency.
This is a fair observation but is equally thought provoking when inverted: some parts of the pro-lockdown sentiment come from not being able to accept that governments cannot order us inside (in a free society). Hence why the focus is on preventing socialisation in places where it can be seen by wider society (bars being the gold standard of this), even if that just means it’s pushed behind closed doors in settings that are less safe and certainly less economically productive. That’s not solving the problem - it’s just burying your head in the sand, pretending socialisation isn’t happening, and denying human nature that lockdown tolerance is very limited.

This isn’t new - eg abstinence-only sex education has long been discredited as an unworkable and unscalable fantasy. But the same people who “get” risk mitigation in that context don’t appear to get it in the case of lockdowns, instead taking their cues from the actions of authoritarian regimes when we don’t have the systems to back that up. The arguments against vaccine passports by the same people who advocate lockdowns is a perfect example of this contradiction/struggle.
 

Bikeman78

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"Everyone was afraid of" is an exaggeration. I know I for one was not, I saw the sensationalised scaremongering in the media for what it was.
Same here. I was out and about on the railway every day in the week leading up to lockdown last March.
 

Islineclear3_1

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I've had this before. I'm the only person in a thread who supports lockdown, supports restrictions, so I must be trolling.

I work in the NHS. I have heard from radiographers who saw xrays for which there was nothing in text books anything like it. We had 200+ patients in ICU at the peak last year. We must all wear masks, in our office, from start to finish.

I type what I do, how I do, because I've seen what Covid has done to real people, and why lockdown must happen again the moment cases rise, as they are across Europe.

I'm not a troll just because I'm a rare voice in favour of
I work in the NHS on the front line (but not on a ward). In my department (ENT), all elective and non-elective, "not too urgent" surgery was cancelled due to Covid. Now my outpatient clinics are filling up with a huge backlog of patients with serious conditions; e.g. nasopharygneal or throat cancers, advanced ear diseases etc. because they haven't had the treatment they need

We (collective in all industries) need to open up and function again, otherwise we'll be on a landslide with all these untreated conditions that will burden the NHS over the coming months, and probably years

NO to lockdowns!
 

yorkie

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Hmmm, I'm not sure I agree with this contention - the claim was that lockdown did the work of reducing case numbers; vaccination will do the work of keeping them low.
Do we believe Tim Spector or Boris Johnson?

Hmm, tough one that!

You are welcome to believe Boris but I will back Tim!

In a video released yesterday (at 1min25seconds) Tim Spector says:
I believe that this fall from that peak in January is primarily due to our success in vaccination, not just locking down. Cases had already started to fall actually before the lockdown was announced. Social distancing has certainly helped keep the numbers down. ...

Don't forget cases increased in Kent when the area was under heavy restrictions too!



I'd point to the response to Johnson's attribution of the majority of the case-decline in 2021 to lockdowns rather than vaccinations - multiple posters decried this claim, argued it's making way for future lockdowns, and at best retreated to a "it's not a helpful thing to say" position, despite the fact that it's a perfectly reasonable point to make (and I am no Johnson fan!)
You are entitled to your opinion but the evidence suggests otherwise.

I would say it was a dangerous, irresponsible thing of Boris to say. Definitely not reasonable.

I would say the vaccine effectiveness deniers are probably more of a threat to vaccine takeup than traditional anti-vaxxers.

I've been shocked to see how much the pro-lockdown lobbyists are denying the effectiveness of vaccines.
 
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initiation

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It's a horrifying number, but it does rather come back to a "what else could we do*" - no restrictions and unchecked covid spread (as seems to be implied as your preferred situation) would have resulted in more patients in hospitals and likely even more cancelled operations and larger backlog. There's no way to "win" with covid

*short of an impossible NZ like near-eradication
Three points on this:

1. No one (apart from a few conspiracy loons) is suggesting we do nothing - the favourite term is "let it rip". There are many many things you can do short of unproven and previously not considered methods like lockdowns.

2. The government has to often seen to be doing something even if that something is arbitary and based on poor evidence (closure of hospitality as one example).

3. We will of course never now what would have had happened if we continued on the strategy we had pre-lockdown but it is worth pointing out that globally there is no correlation between the stringency of restrictions and covid death rates. The same applies when comparing the large number of US states. That must at least make you ask, are lockdowns effective and worthwhile.

On the waiting lists point, anyone heard any stats from Sweden or other US states without lockdown on how cancelled operations etc are looking? I'm gathering from the silence on this point from the media that it is not quite so terrible...
 

philosopher

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What would give me great reassurance is for somebody, preferably the PM, to openly and clearly state that we are aiming to return to full normality. They don’t need to over-promise, there will inevitably be “tests” to pass on the way, but a simple commitment to returning to full normality would buy back a bit of trust. At no point however has this assurance been given. There is however a lot of talk about permanent mask wearing, vaccine passports etc. which goes unfettered which for me begs the question: Why?
To me this is why I somewhat cynical of this. No high level politician in the UK with some degree of power (e.g Boris Johnson or Nicola Sturgeon) has explicitly said they will remove all restrictions or measures such as lockdowns, masks, test and trace, advice not to shake hands, etc as soon as they can.

I would be more accepting of restrictions if I was almost certain that they would end at some point and that the government are doing everything they can to end the restrictions as soon as possible. However from what I hear from the government about continued restrictions and vaccine passports in the second half the year gives me the impression that they have lost sight of that goal. I do not think they are doing all this to increase their power, however I do think they have started to almost take restrictions for granted, i.e. if Covid exists then there has to be some restrictions to control it.
 

kristiang85

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You are entitled to your opinion but the evidence suggests otherwise.

I would say it was a dangerous, irresponsible thing of Boris to say. Definitely not reasonable.

I would say the vaccine effectiveness deniers are probably more of a threat to vaccine takeup than traditional anti-vaxxers.

I've been shocked to see how much the pro-lockdown lobbyists are denying the effectiveness of vaccines.

Yes I agree. What I find particularly disturbing is that, on the same day:
- Boris Johnson said lockdowns were more responsible for the decline than vaccines
- Justin Trudeau said vaccines are not enough to keep us safe, and masks and distancing should continue.
- Australia said even once their whole population was vaccinated, it might be too soon to open borders again.

All on the same day! With absolutely no evidence to back these assertions up (Trudeau even justified his stance by using the UK as an example, saying despite our vaccination rate we are still under tough restrictions and facing a severe third wave...)

I just have no idea what these politicians are playing at, and you're very right to say that this kind of rhetroic is far more damaging than the crazy antivaxx people who spout it from dark corners of social media. This is from the mouths of our governments.

I've long been against the idea that this is all part of a 'bigger plan' of some sort, but when you see world leaders making these kind of coordinated statements you can't help but think there must be something to those ideas. However, I still think it's just a monumental backside covering effort to save mass lawsuits against western governments by their people if it ever comes out that the restrictions that have destroyed our economies and mental health were completely unnecessary.

By the way, if you want to see a well backed up argument against the evidence for lockdown effectiveness, this is a good article to start with. As per forum rules the text is pasted below, but I recommend you read it via the link as there are a lot of graphs in it that aid the analysis.

(apolgoies if this has been posted on the forum already, but I don't recall seeing it anywhere).

What forces Covid into reverse? To many, the obvious answer is lockdown. Cases were surging right up until the start of the three lockdowns, we’re told. It’s often said that all else failed. The Prime Minister said on Tuesday that lockdown, far more than vaccines, explains the fall in hospitalisations, deaths and infections. But how sure are we that only lockdown caused these falls — in the first, second and third wave? Or were other interventions, plus people’s spontaneous reactions to rising cases, enough to get R below one?

In a peer-reviewed paper now published in Biometrics, I find that, in all three cases, Covid-19 levels were probably falling before lockdown. A separate paper, with colleague Ernst Wit, comes to the same conclusion for the first two lockdowns, by the alternative approach of re-doing Imperial College’s major modelling study of the epidemic in 2020. In light of this, the Imperial College claim that new infections were surging right up until lockdown one — causing about 20,000 avoidable deaths — seems rather questionable.

Let’s start with the events of last March. Imperial’s Neil Ferguson, whose modelling inspired the government’s decision to go into lockdown in March, told MPs in June that ‘had we introduced lockdown measures a week earlier, we would have reduced the final death toll by at least a half’. Last December, a paper called Report 41 was published by Imperial College along these lines. It said:

Among control measures implemented, only national lockdown brought the reproduction number below 1 consistently. Introduced one week earlier, it could have reduced first wave deaths from 36,700 to 15,700.
Its argument was summed up in one of the very few graphs to make it out of academia and into the newspapers, showing that infections trebled in the week before lockdown — because none of the other measures (suspending large events, work-from-home guidance, school closures etc.) apparently made any appreciable difference.

This above was reprinted over a double-page newspaper spread — with the precise number of infections every day printed at the bottom. Publicity for an epidemiological model doesn’t come much bigger.

But how sure can we be of the overall direction of the virus in the days before lockdown, let alone the precise numbers? If epidemiological models are being used to decide lockdown policy, it’s important they are robustly tested. And even more important that we work out what we know for sure — and what we don’t.

Imperial’s analysis of the March lockdown​

When professor Ferguson spoke in June, his analysis appeared to be boosted by a paper in the prestigious journal Nature. In it, Ferguson’s Imperial team had developed a simple model of the spread of Covid-19 and fitted it to data on the daily deaths from Covid-19. Crucially, for those critical few days and weeks around lockdown, they wanted the data to tell them how, when and by how much the R number changed. The graph they obtained is below and shows the R number in green, with uncertainty intervals. The triangles, and other symbols, mark various interventions (self-isolation, social distancing, work from home and school closures). These interventions appear to have barely any impact on the R number. But lockdown, announced late on 23 March, brings it crashing down.

The R estimates translate into surging total new infections each day (above in blue). Many graphs are produced in academia. Not many are the basis for a double-page spread in a national newspaper, as the Imperial chart was. And the interpretation that ‘dither and delay cost thousands of British lives’ is striking. But those figures were not drawn from actual measurements of the daily number of new infections. Such hard data did not, and do not, exist. Instead, the most reliable data available were on numbers of deaths each day, and the range of times from infection to death. A model is needed to turn such data into figures on daily new infections. And the model that was used contains assumptions that, in subtle but important ways, strongly favours infections surging until 23 March.

In particular, the Imperial team’s model assumed that they knew when and how R was changing. They only needed the data to tell them by how much it changed.

The data-led approach​

I repeated Imperial’s analysis, but with one important difference: the data were used to also determine when and how R changed. The Imperial model then gives a very different result. It suggests that R was already below 1 before lockdown. If that is the case then, rather than surging, new infections were already in decline.

In the same paper I also used a different approach, bypassing the Imperial model altogether, to directly estimate the daily number of new fatal infections from the data on daily deaths and fatal disease duration. This direct approach also strongly suggests that infections were in substantial decline before lockdown, and that R was already below one. The graph below shows what this second approach found around the time of the first lockdown.

The same approach can be used again at the second and third lockdowns. Before the second lockdown it was argued that the tier system was ineffective and that cases were surging. But the reconstructions suggest that fatal infections — and by implication Covid infections generally — were not surging. They were in decline having peaked earlier. The third peak is between Christmas and New Year. Not, perhaps, a surprise, but remember that by December the vaccine program was underway.

It is possibly worth noting that although the estimated fatal infections were in retreat before each lockdown, the daily deaths were surging each time that a lockdown was called. The psychological pressure that this puts on the decision makers is obvious.

The approach I took of course makes its own assumptions. That the infection rate and R change in a smooth continuous manner, as people change their behaviour. My paper examines in detail whether that assumption — rather than the data — could be responsible for my conclusions. But it appears not. Further, allowing for the 5 to 6 day average delay between infection and onset of symptoms, the results in the two charts above are also consistent with reconstructions of the daily onset of new Covid symptoms from the React-2 study. (This is run by a different group at Imperial and focuses on epidemic measurement).

My work is not alone in raising concerns about Imperial’s evidence for lockdown efficacy. For example, in a forthcoming peer-reviewed paper in the Journal of Clinical Epidemiology, Vincent Chin, John Ioannidis, Martin Tanner and Sally Cripps, use the same Imperial model together with a second model, also originally produced by the Imperial group. By fitting these alternative models to the data, they show that, if anything, the data imply that lockdown had little or no benefit. At a minimum, this means that the Imperial results are not robust.

And then there is Sweden: the western European country that tried a different approach, and did not lockdown. My analysis finds that its daily infection rate started declining only a day or two after the UK, as the following plot shows.

The Imperial study does not disagree that Swedish infections declined without lockdown. In fact, to accommodate this anomaly their model treats the final March intervention in Sweden (shutting colleges and upper years secondary schools) as if it was lockdown. As many others have pointed out, that’s a strange way to model the set of data that most directly suggests that lockdown might not have been essential.

Taken together these results imply that the pronouncement that 20,000 lives would have been saved by an earlier first lockdown is wrong. In fact, it is probably an answer to the wrong question. The more interesting question remains whether lockdown was necessary at all, or whether the earlier measures might have been sufficient.

An alternative approach​

This brings us back to Imperial’s Report 41 — the paper published last December that concluded that ‘only national lockdown brought the reproduction number below 1 consistently’. It fits an impressively detailed model with hundreds of equations to data on Covid-19 test results, hospital and care home deaths, hospital and ICU occupancy and hospital admissions. As with the previous Imperial study, the key question is when, how and by how much the R number had changed — this time over most of 2020.

Again as with the previous study, Report 41 assumes that the ‘when and how’ parts are essentially known, and the data need only be used to tell us the size of the R changes. The conclusion reached is that lockdowns are essential to bringing R below 1 and that deaths in the first wave could have been reduced from 36,700 to 15,700 had lockdown been called on 16 rather than 23 March.

With professor Ernst Wit of Università della Svizzera Italiana in Switzerland, I repeated the Report 41 analysis as reported in a pre-print (a not yet peer-reviewed study) on medRxiv. The Report 41 assumptions around the first lockdown are even more restrictive than in Imperial’s earlier study, and we again replaced them with an approach that allows the data to tell us when and how R changed, as well as by how much. Because far more data are involved this time, the scope for our own assumptions to bias our results is lessened, but we nonetheless took an approach designed to minimise such problems.

Checking the key assumptions used by Imperial​

As we went through Report 41 we also noticed some unusual things: Imperial’s model was using key input measures that were shorter than the times given in the published papers cited as sources.

  1. The time Imperial used from infection to symptoms (the ‘incubation period’). It’s stated as 4.6 days, citing Lauer et al. But that study says ‘the estimated mean incubation period was 5.5 days.’ A careful subsequent analysis by McAloon et al combining several studies, including Lauer et al, gives 5.8 days.
  2. The time Imperial gave from symptoms to hospitalisation. Imperial give a mean of 4 days, citing Docherty et al. But that paper gives 4 days as the median time. For the model they use, the corresponding mean days from onset to hospital is 6, not 4

These two changes subtract three days from the model time between Covid infection and hospitalisation, compared to the values given in the cited literature. This is not a small issue if so much is to be made about every day mattering.

Two other points from Imperial’s Report 41 were troubling:
  1. The model structure forced the average time from infection to infection to be quite a bit longer than the times reported in the literature.
  2. The model-fitting appeared to be set up in a way that attributed unusually low weight to the actual data, relative to assumptions built into the model.
We tried to correct each of these four issues. The resulting model and analysis are very far from perfect, but we think that the results can give a somewhat more accurate picture of what the data imply than the original. Below is the picture we got for infections, by region and in total, around the time of first lockdown. Again the results imply that infections were in retreat before lockdown was called.

Around the second lockdown, where the Imperial model is set up to be much less restrictive than around the first, the results of our re-implementation are broadly similar to Report 41: R was below one, and hence infection levels were falling (in most regions and in total), before lockdown.

So even taking the most negative view of our work, and the most positive view of the Imperial study, it is hard to see the latter as providing robust evidence for lockdown having caused R to drop below 1. Let alone as providing a reasonable basis on which to compute the number of lives that an earlier lockdown might have saved.
Even if our study’s assumptions are no better than Imperial’s, just different (which we would dispute), we have clearly shown that the Report 41 results are too strongly dependent on the model assumptions to provide reasonable evidence for the life-saving potential of earlier lockdowns claimed in the press.
But suppose that our results are discounted altogether — what then? The claims made in Report 41 are still dubious. For a start, they are based on a model that ignores hospital-acquired infections: regrettably a non-negligible part of the UK Covid epidemic.
What is not ignored by Report 41 is that the model does not and cannot distinguish the effects of government policy from other effects, such as the weather. The report is open about this, but not about its logical consequences. If we cannot even separate the effects of lockdown from the effects of weather, then it is really not possible to say what effect an earlier lockdown would have had.
So the most reasonable interpretation of the publicly available data seems to be that R was less than 1, and infections in decline, before each of the three full lockdowns to date. Measures short of full lockdown, and perhaps people’s own behavioural response to rising deaths, appear more likely to have been responsible for turning the tide of infection.
Of course, data that are not yet publicly available, in particular from the NHS and ONS, could yet alter this picture in future. But using Imperial’s figures to claim that 20,000 lives were lost because lockdown was delayed is not valid. And if lockdowns were not essential to turning the tides of the epidemic, the question remains whether they were worth the collateral damage.
 
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VauxhallandI

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There is probably nothing more depressing on a discussion forum than someone refusing to debate points made to them, and then claiming they are being "shut down". You are not being shut down at all, you just don't seem to want to engage in actual debate about many of the points made by myself and others on this thread.

I did suggest previously that you take a bit of time to read through at least a good proportion of it, I'm assuming by your responses since you have not. However had you done so you would have had an insight into why some of us think the way we do.


I hate to be the one to break it to you but covid is not the only thing that comes as a consequence of our actions. For example, you have mentioned that you work in the health service, and so you will also be aware that in England NHS staff are being offered a pay rise less than was previously expected. Why do you suppose that is? The answer is simple, the vast cost of covid restrictions, testing, vaccinations, nightingale hospitals that were barely used, procurement of equipment that was unsuitable, furlough payments, lost tax revenue, etc, etc, etc. By calling for more & longer restrictions, you are calling for even more cost & even more lost revenue, which will translate directly into public sector cuts such as you are seeing with pay rises. I have just past 34 years in the public sector, and I've seen this kind of thing time and again.

As for your points on society, you really think individualism came about in the social media age? Because I would strongly disagree, its been around for decades, and in some quarters centuries. The fact that most people obeyed the rules & regulations around covid was not a giant exercise in altruism, it came about because people were scared silly by overly aggressive messaging make people feel that they were at risk of dropping dead on the spot, or worse still being blamed for someone else dropping dead. It was a highly effective method to be fair, but now risks the mental wellbeing of millions of people. Yet you seem not to care about this, only covid. Similar with people whose livelihoods have gone down the swanny. Never mind you say, it isn't covid.

Covid is not the be-all and end-all, it is not a doomsday virus, it will not bring about our end. Even now the virus strains that cause it are settling into their new environments, that is us. It isn't going to be eradicated, it isn't going away. We have more than enough data, knowledge , treatments and vaccines to make this no more than another seasonal virus that we have to put up with. Some people will get sick, some will die, but this is nothing new under the sun. Influenza for example has been at it for as long as we have medical records & beyond, my own sister succumb to it when she was just 30 years & very healthy. We have had seasons where 50-60K have died in a period of a few months, yet we had no lockdowns, no restrictions, no panic.

What you are seeing is what happens when politicians get spooked, and look for ways not to be blamed. None of this panic was necessary, we should have learned that lesson early on. Some of us have.
Superb post thank you.

The damage the propaganda has done is staggering and I’m not they realise how far it has gone and the consequences of it. How do we help the brainwashed back to society?

I’m out here in a village in Suffolk and they are beyond the thunder dome in their paranoia.

I went to the bakery this morning; they actually have a window open to take orders and the door is open with a table and card machine on it.

The lady takes the order muffled behind a mask 4 metres away and the server runs to the table drops the order and scuttles back to 4.5m distance.

The bit that left me reeling was the signs in the window telling people to wear a mask outside on the street to place their order and pick up the bags.

How the hell are we going to bring these people back to reality?
 

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kristiang85

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Superb post thank you.

The damage the propaganda has done is staggering and I’m not they realise how far it has gone and the consequences of it. How do we help the brainwashed back to society?

I’m out here in a village in Suffolk and they are beyond the thunder dome in their paranoia.

I went to the bakery this morning; they actually have a window open to take orders and the door is open with a table and card machine on it.

The lady takes the order muffled behind a mask 4 metres away and the server runs to the table drops the order and scuttles back to 4.5m distance.

The bit that left me reeling was the signs in the window telling people to wear a mask outside on the street to place their order and pick up the bags.

How the hell are we going to bring these people back to reality?

As much as I'm trying to go out of my way to support local businesses, if I see one like this I avoid it now. It seems they need to learn the hard way that if they want customers, they need to stop treating us like plague-ridden germ spreaders.
 

Ediswan

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Hmmm, I'm not sure I agree with this contention - the claim was that lockdown did the work of reducing case numbers; vaccination will do the work of keeping them low.
That is the way I understood the claim. Case numbers started to come down in January, before the vaccination programme had progressed far enough to be able to have a significant effect on whole country statistics.

To what extent that early reduction was natural, or a result of restrictions, is a different question. Boris has a vested interest in insisting it was all down to the restrictions.
 

brad465

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That is the way I understood the claim. Case numbers started to come down in January, before the vaccination programme had progressed far enough to be able to have a significant effect on whole country statistics.

To what extent that early reduction was natural, or a result of restrictions, is a different question. Boris has a vested interest in insisting it was all down to the restrictions.
I do think he and others in Government stand to gain from keeping restrictions going, not necessarily through introducing more control measures, but the whole thing is the best cover up/dead cat they could ask for when it comes to other problems, including the B word. It's just a question of how long they can keep them going before enough of the population wake up and stop listening, and/or Tory rebels act. They can also try and keep the emergency powers going, which, aside from restrictions (which happen more through the 1984 Public health act), allows them to funnel public money into party donors through dodgy contracts for longer.
 

DustyBin

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That is the way I understood the claim. Case numbers started to come down in January, before the vaccination programme had progressed far enough to be able to have a significant effect on whole country statistics.

To what extent that early reduction was natural, or a result of restrictions, is a different question. Boris has a vested interest in insisting it was all down to the restrictions.

I wouldn't argue with this, it was the 'spin' that riled me.

I do think he and others in Government stand to gain from keeping restrictions going, not necessarily through introducing more control measures, but the whole thing is the best cover up/dead cat they could ask for when it comes to other problems, including the B word. It's just a question of how long they can keep them going before enough of the population wake up and stop listening, and/or Tory rebels act. They can also try and keep the emergency powers going, which, aside from restrictions (which happen more through the 1984 Public health act), allows them to funnel public money into party donors through dodgy contracts for longer.

I'm fairly certain they're not acting in our best interests at this point, whatever the agenda....
 

35B

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Superb post thank you.

The damage the propaganda has done is staggering and I’m not they realise how far it has gone and the consequences of it. How do we help the brainwashed back to society?

I’m out here in a village in Suffolk and they are beyond the thunder dome in their paranoia.

I went to the bakery this morning; they actually have a window open to take orders and the door is open with a table and card machine on it.

The lady takes the order muffled behind a mask 4 metres away and the server runs to the table drops the order and scuttles back to 4.5m distance.

The bit that left me reeling was the signs in the window telling people to wear a mask outside on the street to place their order and pick up the bags.

How the hell are we going to bring these people back to reality?
I'd be asking why they're so concerned, and what led to that completely over the top practice.

Do we believe Tim Spector or Boris Johnson?

Hmm, tough one that!

You are welcome to believe Boris but I will back Tim!

In a video released yesterday (at 1min25seconds) Tim Spector says:


Don't forget cases increased in Kent when the area was under heavy restrictions too!




You are entitled to your opinion but the evidence suggests otherwise.

I would say it was a dangerous, irresponsible thing of Boris to say. Definitely not reasonable.

I would say the vaccine effectiveness deniers are probably more of a threat to vaccine takeup than traditional anti-vaxxers.

I've been shocked to see how much the pro-lockdown lobbyists are denying the effectiveness of vaccines.
On Spector or Johnson, I'll need to look at Spector's video - but I find that claim for the effectiveness of vaccination so early hard to believe - while also noting that you quote him speaking favourably of the role of social distancing.

As for the relationship of views on lockdown to vaccination, my unscientific observation is that there's a very close correlation between those who are anti lockdown and anti mask, and the anti-vaxxers.
 

DustyBin

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I'd be asking why they're so concerned, and what led to that completely over the top practice.


On Spector or Johnson, I'll need to look at Spector's video - but I find that claim for the effectiveness of vaccination so early hard to believe - while also noting that you quote him speaking favourably of the role of social distancing.

As for the relationship of views on lockdown to vaccination, my unscientific observation is that there's a very close correlation between those who are anti lockdown and anti mask, and the anti-vaxxers.

Whilst of course only they know, it may well be that they severely overestimate the threat. There are a significant number of people who don't know the facts about this virus. Again, you'd have to ask them and it may be that they have a genuine reason (they may have an underlying health condition but haven't been vaccinated, for example).

Re your final point, I think it's fair to say most anti-vaxxers are also anti restriction, but that doesn't mean most of those who are anti restriction are anti-vaxxers. Indeed there are many examples on this forum of people who would argue that vaccines are the very reason we should never go into lockdown again (me being one of them).
 

MikeWM

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As for the relationship of views on lockdown to vaccination, my unscientific observation is that there's a very close correlation between those who are anti lockdown and anti mask, and the anti-vaxxers.

Well, that's demonstrably not true on this forum. The majority of people here are anti-lockdown, many (but not all) of which are anti-mask, and yet the vast majority have been vaccinated or are intending to be so.
 

yorkie

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Most people who question vaccine effectiveness are pro restriction.

There are very few people who are anti vax despite them being very high profile. They are very vocal.

I only know one anti vax person (one of my many many cousins) that I know of and I think I can safely say all their relatives disagree with them!

Make no mistake: the anti vaxxers are a tiny number of highly vocal people who are ignored by the majority of the population; the biggest threats to vaccine confidence come from the pro- restrictions / mask enthusiast / lockdown enthusiast brigade.
 

cuccir

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There's simply no way that the vaccine could have been having an effect on cases in January and the first half of February. Have you seen John Burn-Murdoch's updated charts on this debate? It's quite a nice illustration, that I'd agree with, of the lockdown effect v vaccine effect.
You are entitled to your opinion but the evidence suggests otherwise.

I would say it was a dangerous, irresponsible thing of Boris to say. Definitely not reasonable.

I would say the vaccine effectiveness deniers are probably more of a threat to vaccine takeup than traditional anti-vaxxers.

I've been shocked to see how much the pro-lockdown lobbyists are denying the effectiveness of vaccines.
There's a big jump from saying that the lockdowns have done more of the work in bringing cases down to questioning the effectiveness of vaccines. The vaccines have been highly effective, more so than anyone predicted, to the extent that I now agree more with those models that are suggesting we will have a minimal exit wave, if we have one at all. That's great, but it's not a reason to lie about them and say they were somehow having an effect on cases when less than 5% of the population had had a shot!

I also think there's benefit in preparing people for the possibility of a rise or plateauing of cases as we open up in May-July (with the lag taking this to September), because the modelling on the matter is uncertain- the point is to ready people for that, so that a small upwards bump doesn't result in a clamor for lockdown.

The problem I have (and one seemingly shared by many on here) is that I have lost all trust in the government and their advisors. I say that as a (C)conservative incidentally. I occasionally take a step back and check my own sense of perspective, but I can’t get away from the feeling that they’re “boiling the frog”. Meanwhile, those who openly promote the imposition of permanent restrictions and/or changes to our way of life go unchallenged. I think a level of mistrust is perfectly understandable.
I can only agree with most of this - I completely understand why the last 15-16 months has lead people to mistrust the government. Perhaps if like me you never particularly trusted them anyway it actually helps because my view hasn't shifted! It does now seem to leave me more optimistic that we're genuinely on the route out of things than many others.
 
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johnnychips

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During the lockdowns, Hallgate in Doncaster was narrowed from a two-lane one-way street to one lane and the pavements widened. It was like Paris tonight with groups of people sat outside the pubs enjoying the late evening sun. Most of my colleagues are now in the ‘enough is enough’ frame of mind and think we need to return to normal, and the 1821 to Sheffield is busier than I’ve seen it in months.
 

Mag_seven

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the point is to ready people for that, so that a small upwards bump doesn't result in a clamor for lockdown.

Even if there is a "clamour" for more lockdowns I think the government should really rule them out now now that we have vaccines and treatments.
 

Class 33

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I also think there's benefit in preparing people for the possibility of a rise or plateauing of cases as we open up in May-July (with the lag taking this to September), because the modelling on the matter is uncertain- the point is to ready people for that, so that a small upwards bump doesn't result in a clamor for lockdown.

There may well be a rise in cases during the summer months. I have no idea how much of a rise that could be. It's a bit more difficult to predict the situation with cases compared to hospital admissions, numbers in hospital and deaths which will all continue to fall I reacon. But as has been mentioned by a number of people - including even Whitty, the link between cases leading to hospital numbers and deaths has now been broken. So a rise in cases is NOT going to lead to a surge in hospital numbers and deaths again. Those days are long gone! So if in the event there is a rise in cases, we really had better not be getting any of this scaremongering nonsense again from the likes of SAGE, Whitty, Vallance, Starmer, etc pressuring Johnson for the lockdown/restrictions roadmap to be delayed, reversed or even going to full national lockdown again, along with the press and media fueling this. We really can't be doing with all this again.
 
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yorkie

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There's simply no way that the vaccine could have been having an effect on cases in January and the first half of February.
That does not mean you can attribute it to the lockdown. As Tim said, cases were already declining before the national lockdown was announced.


Have you seen John Burn-Murdoch's updated charts on this debate? It's quite a nice illustration, that I'd agree with, of the lockdown effect v vaccine effect.
Looking at his tweets he appears to have a dubious agenda. I see he has been criticised for using reporting dates rather than actual dates; this is a classic case of someone who is biased who wishes to push a particular narrative.

I see no evidence that he is a cut above the average journalist, and let's face it, the bar is pretty low these days.

There's a big jump from saying that the lockdowns have done more of the work in bringing cases down to questioning the effectiveness of vaccines.
If you do not question the effectiveness of vaccines, you would be giving the vaccines the credit they deserve along with accepting that no future lockdowns are justifiable.

The vaccines have been highly effective, more so than anyone predicted, to the extent that I now agree more with those models that are suggesting we will have a minimal exit wave, if we have one at all.
I am glad you admit it, but other things you have said are still causing me concern.

That's great, but it's not a reason to lie about them and say they were somehow having an effect on cases when less than 5% of the population had had a shot!
Two things here.

Firstly, if you are claiming it is the lockdown, I could respond in kind by saying "it's not a reason to lie about lockdown by saying it was somehow having an effect on cases before it took effect!" ;)

Secondly, vaccines include immunity and it is immunity that has an effect. Once a high enough proportion of people who are exposed to the virus and/or vaccinated have sufficient immunity, this makes it harder for the virus to spread. You see this effect not only in pandemics but also in seasonal endemic equilibrium models. Take a look at the H1N1 pandemic in the UK. Older people had immunity; younger people did not. It arrived in Spring and it peaked a few weeks later and came down naturally once a sufficient number of people had built up immunity, no doubt helped by the season. It obviously rebounded in the autumn as you would expect, but again reduced rapidly before the onset of winter as by then enough people had immunity.


I also think there's benefit in preparing people for the possibility of a rise or plateauing of cases as we open up in May-July (with the lag taking this to September), because the modelling on the matter is uncertain- the point is to ready people for that, so that a small upwards bump doesn't result in a clamor for lockdown.
Cases are much less relevant now that we have broken the link between cases and hospitalisations and deaths.

I can only agree with most of this - I completely understand why the last 15-16 months has lead people to mistrust the government. Perhaps if like me you never particularly trusted them anyway it actually helps because my view hasn't shifted! It does now seem to leave me more optimistic that we're genuinely on the route out of things than many others.
I am glad you share my optimism; I hope that you will join me in condemning Boris' pessimism and dangerous messaging.

Even if there is a "clamour" for more lockdowns I think the government should really rule them out now now that we have vaccines and treatments.
They should. It is irresponsible of them not to.
 
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