23.00 London Euston-Man picc why run it?

[Starmill]

11 coaches or 9? Either way they obviously can't run anything shorter, and it has been decided (thankfully!) That a late night service from London to Manchester is a good idea. On the East Coast the 2330 to Leeds has run for longer. It also runs with 9 coaches, which is of course roomy. Similar story with 0505 southbound departures.

 

[berneyarms]

Bit pointless running six trains between 0600 and 0700 considering the early hour in the morning and the peak price of a ticket nobody is going to use these services apart from Business managers. Trains would be better of use if they ran a couple of later services after 2115 and reduced the morning peak.

Do you think that those six trains are operated just for the sake of it or because there is actual demand?

The demand is there - that's why they operate and are priced accordingly.

They are not aimed at the leisure market.

 

[craigybagel]

Bit pointless running six trains between 0600 and 0700 considering the early hour in the morning and the peak price of a ticket nobody is going to use these services apart from Business managers. Trains would be better of use if they ran a couple of later services after 2115 and reduced the morning peak.

I think you need to forward this to Virgin immediately - surely this idea has never occurred to them and this discovery you have made could save them a fortune! :roll:

 

[me123]

Bit pointless running six trains between 0600 and 0700 considering the early hour in the morning and the peak price of a ticket nobody is going to use these services apart from Business managers. Trains would be better of use if they ran a couple of later services after 2115 and reduced the morning peak.

I'm sure Virgin run the services because the demand is there. The fares ain't cheap, but people if people are willing to pay then Virgin are doing well. (And you'll probably find that this is where Virgin make their money, which in turn makes their loss-making services such as the 23:00 to Manchester viable).

 

[Greenback]

A range of departure times is helpful in giving rail a competitive edge. Passengers not only have a better choice of when they can travel,. but it's comforting to know that should oversleep they won't have long to wait for the next train. All this is important in bringing business and revenue to the railway. The individual trains don't have to be jam packed to be worthwhile.

 

[radamfi]

To hark back to the original query, this late service is one between two of the major cities of England. Are there not similar occurrences at this time of the day of rail services between major cities in Europe?

Between Rotterdam, The Hague, Amsterdam and Utrecht, trains run all night every hour. But the distance between Rotterdam and Amsterdam is about 80 km so nowhere near the distance of London to Manchester. Obviously there are a number of long distance night trains in Europe, although they are getting rarer year by year.

Later trains from Manchester to London would be more use to me. Because buses run 24 hours a day in London, onward transport from Euston would be viable in the middle of the night. And you can even travel to places like Three Bridges which have overnight trains. But arriving in Manchester when the last train from Euston arrives is not much use unless you are within walking distance from the station or can get a lift, as taxis are obviously silly money that time of night.
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Is Manchester bigger than Birmingham now?

The municipality of Birmingham (i.e. the region governed by Birmingham City Council) is a lot bigger than the Manchester equivalent, because historically Birmingham 'annexed' a lot of its suburbs, whereas in Manchester they remained as separate towns. The urban areas surrounding the two cities are very comparable in size, although the Greater Manchester Built Up Area (as measured by the Office for National Statistics) is now slightly bigger in population than the West Midlands Built Up Area.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_urban_areas_in_the_United_Kingdom

If you look at population within a 20 (or 30) mile radius, Manchester is considerably bigger as the area surrounding the West Midlands urban area is far less built up.

 

[Tony2215]

I think you need to forward this to Virgin immediately - surely this idea has never occurred to them and this discovery you have made could save them a fortune! :roll:

Such a sarcastic reply. Would it really be a bad idea to withdraw one or two trains from morning peak to run as last trains of the night? Spread things out a little so there is a balanced service at the same times of day in each direction
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Is Manchester bigger than Birmingham now?

Isnt Manchester sometimes referred to as Englands second capital city?

 

[AdamHewitt]

But arriving in Manchester when the last train from Euston arrives is not much use unless you are within walking distance from the station or can get a lift, as taxis are obviously silly money that time of night.

Or fancy daring a walk down to Piccadilly Gardens in the early hours to catch a night bus...

Actually, no, I tell a lie; night buses only run on Fridays and Saturdays, apparently. So you are completely right!

 

[Tetchytyke]

Isnt Manchester sometimes referred to as Englands second capital city?

Only by Mancunians.

 

[radamfi]

Actually, no, I tell a lie; night buses only run on Fridays and Saturdays, apparently. So you are completely right!

The 192 also runs Friday morning, the 43 runs 24 hours a day and other Wilmslow Road routes run most nights. But the majority of routes that ran Saturday and Sunday morning have recently been withdrawn or will soon be withdrawn due to funding cuts.

 

[Holly]

The 192 also runs Friday morning, the 43 runs 24 hours a day and other Wilmslow Road routes run most nights. But the majority of routes that ran Saturday and Sunday morning have recently been withdrawn or will soon be withdrawn due to funding cuts.

That's why a midnight departure from Euston to Crewe would be so valuable. Because you can park at Crewe if you know in advance that you are coming back late. Also, worst case, there are some early trains out of Crewe.
In the old days those newspaper trains were invaluable to people whose travel plans had been disrupted.

 

[craigybagel]

Such a sarcastic reply. Would it really be a bad idea to withdraw one or two trains from morning peak to run as last trains of the night? Spread things out a little so there is a balanced service at the same times of day in each direction

Sarcastic because so often on this site people assume they know better than the companies themselves. If Virgin thought they could make more money by doing things differently I'm sure they would. If they feel the current arrangement quirks I'm happy to take their word on it.

 

[30907]

Between Rotterdam, The Hague, Amsterdam and Utrecht, trains run all night every hour. But the distance between Rotterdam and Amsterdam is about 80 km so nowhere near the distance of London to Manchester. Obviously there are a number of long distance night trains in Europe, although they are getting rarer year by year.

The UK pattern of longish distance late night services out of London is unusual in European terms. At a quick glance, ignoring overnight trains, most TGVs reach destination before midnight on Mon-Thur.

Last trains INTO Paris are slightly later than their London equivalents, maybe because more potential customers live near the city centre than was the case in London till recently. And though France is Paris centred, I doubt if many Lyonnais would do a day return to take in a show (which in any case wouldn't start till 8.30)!

I think also that we are much less inclined to let trains stable overnight away from depot, unlike DB for example (where the IC/ICE network also closes down before midnight, bar a couple of long distance overnight ones). So no Pendos berth at Preston or Carlisle these days...

 

[Greenback]

I think that the UK is far more London centric. Other European countries are not so reliant on one large city for their economy as we are.

 

[berneyarms]

Such a sarcastic reply. Would it really be a bad idea to withdraw one or two trains from morning peak to run as last trains of the night? Spread things out a little so there is a balanced service at the same times of day in each direction
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Isnt Manchester sometimes referred to as Englands second capital city?

I think that it needs to be said that you really have not thought this through.

Peak traffic flow is into London in the mornings - that is where the largest demand is, and that is what Virgin are doing.

These trains serve different stations along the route and are the peak trains into London from all those stations as well as Manchester - the key is in that word - PEAK! They are not going to be half-empty as you seem to think.

The six trains from Manchester operate as follows:
05:55 calling at Stockport, Wilmslow, Crewe and Nuneaton - Arrives London 08:08
06:10 calling at Stockport, Macclesfield, Stoke & Rugby - Arrives London 08:23
06:27 calling at Stockport, Macclesfield, Stoke, Stafford, Sandwell & Dudley, Wolverhampton, Birmingham New Street, Birmingham International, Coventry and Watford Junction - Arrives London 09:34
06:35 calling at Stockport, Macclesfield, Stoke & Rugby - Arrives London 08:46
06:43 calling at Stockport, Wilmslow, Crewe & Stafford - Arrives London 08:54
07:00 calling at Stockport only - Arrives London 09:00

You're suggesting removing trains from a time when they are likely to be quite full, with tickets sold at full prices, to times when they are going to be half empty with most tickets being cheaper?

What would be the sense in that?

I think you would have some very unhappy customers.

 

[Albatross]

Nah, most of the United fans would be getting the trains out of Victoria back to Surrey.

I know it's just an attempt at humour but as an ex BTP man I can assure you that whenever we escorted either Manchester team back there was usually double the amount of United at least.

 

[Antman]

Sarcastic because so often on this site people assume they know better than the companies themselves. If Virgin thought they could make more money by doing things differently I'm sure they would. If they feel the current arrangement quirks I'm happy to take their word on it.

I don't think anybody has suggested they know better than the operator, just a suggestion of how things could perhaps be done differently...............oh and sarcasm is the lowest form of wit

 

[Greenback]

The early services also serve two routes, suggesting that there is sufficient revenue from stations like Wilmslow to make calling there worthwhile. A significant number of passengers want the flexibility of being able to choose from a number of direct trains. Without that, they could be lost to rail altogether.

 

[Domh245]

That 0627 service via Birmingham surely is more for the benefit of West Midland commuters than Manchester commuters, other than the (likely quite small Manchester - West Midlands + intermediate stops) market.

 

[dk1]

The early services also serve two routes, suggesting that there is sufficient revenue from stations like Wilmslow to make calling there worthwhile. A significant number of passengers want the flexibility of being able to choose from a number of direct trains. Without that, they could be lost to rail altogether.

& being in a very affluent catchment area, Wilmslow is more than worth it for the 1st class full fare clientele. Thats what Virgin are in this business for after all.

 

[Greenback]

That 0627 service via Birmingham surely is more for the benefit of West Midland commuters than Manchester commuters, other than the (likely quite small Manchester - West Midlands + intermediate stops) market.

There used to be a significant flow from Reading to Birmingham at 0630 and 0730 when I worked there fifteen years ago. I'm sure that there is, at least, a similar amount of business now between Manchester and Birmingham, never mind the rest of the region!

& being in a very affluent catchment area, Wilmslow is more than worth it for the 1st class full fare clientele. Thats what Virgin are in this business for after all.

Absolutely right!

 

[bb21]

Such a sarcastic reply. Would it really be a bad idea to withdraw one or two trains from morning peak to run as last trains of the night? Spread things out a little so there is a balanced service at the same times of day in each direction

Surely you don't have to do one or the other? It is quite possible to do both if the demand is there and the sums add up.

 

[Tony2215]

That 0627 service via Birmingham surely is more for the benefit of West Midland commuters than Manchester commuters, other than the (likely quite small Manchester - West Midlands + intermediate stops) market.

I like this train, nothing better than going the long way round, although ive had a few bizarre requests from train staff to "Change at Stoke if your going to London". I always reply with "Why? I'm on no mission or in no rush"

 

[CosherB]

Bit pointless running six trains between 0600 and 0700 considering the early hour in the morning and the peak price of a ticket nobody is going to use these services apart from Business managers. Trains would be better of use if they ran a couple of later services after 2115 and reduced the morning peak.

1) I am not a business manager.
2) You have no idea how useful it is to get a train from Warrington at 6am and be in London for just after 8am. Welcome to the real world.

 

[Class 170101]

As I recall the Wolverhampton train used to be 23:40 ex Euston. The 23:15 ex St Pancras used to be 23:45.

I mkust also admit to be surprised that the 23:00 Manchester calls at Stockport. I would have expected this train to receive the same treatment as the 23:30 Kings Cross to Leeds which omits Wakefield Westgate to enable it to be diverted around West Yorkshire. The Manchester train to be able to be run via Styal, and now via Warrington and Earlestown approaching Manchester from the west.

 

[me123]

I like this train, nothing better than going the long way round, although ive had a few bizarre requests from train staff to "Change at Stoke if your going to London". I always reply with "Why? I'm on no mission or in no rush"

Probably because the vast majority of people travelling at that time of the morning want to get to London as quickly as possible and minimise their travel time, so it would be beneficial for them to catch the faster connecting service.

Whilst I often enjoy taking a longer, more scenic route, people like you and I are in the minority. I suspect most people would rather get to where they're going quicker, and would appreciate being advised to change.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As I recall the Wolverhampton train used to be 23:40 ex Euston. The 23:15 ex St Pancras used to be 23:45.

I mkust also admit to be surprised that the 23:00 Manchester calls at Stockport. I would have expected this train to receive the same treatment as the 23:30 Kings Cross to Leeds which omits Wakefield Westgate to enable it to be diverted around West Yorkshire. The Manchester train to be able to be run via Styal, and now via Warrington and Earlestown approaching Manchester from the west.

Stockport is so close to Manchester that it is probably better that they get the income from stopping there most of the time and have to put the Stockport passengers in taxis once in a while, than that they miss out on it entirely.

 

[Hadders]

As I recall the Wolverhampton train used to be 23:40 ex Euston.

I think it was 2345, then got changed to 2340 before becoming 2330.

 

[driver_m]

That 0627 service via Birmingham surely is more for the benefit of West Midland commuters than Manchester commuters, other than the (likely quite small Manchester - West Midlands + intermediate stops) market.

The xx27 path out of picc is a XC path and such is very useful for keeping competency over the stafford - new st - rugby route. A lot do board at Stoke and particularly Stafford.

 

[al78]

Before reading this thread I had no idea there was a 23:00 from London to Manchester. I'm sure last time I got a late train to Manchester the 22:00 was the last service (that is going back a few years), which stopped at extra stations and thus took just over 2 1/2 hours rather than the normal 2hrs 10mins.