23/01/19 21:56 Leeds to Skipton - passengers kicked off at Shipley as driver had exceeded hours?

[johntea]

Seems to be quite a few tweets from passengers in that the 23/01 21:56 Leeds to Skipton service was delayed leaving Leeds then got to Shipley where, possibly due to the delay, it was determined the driver had exceeded his hours so had to run it straight to Skipton (there seems conflicting reports as to if any Skipton passengers were allowed to stay on or not however)

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y52884/2019/01/23/advanced

If this is true, I can understand the safety reasons as to why the driver couldn't continue, but I cannot understand Northern kicking everyone off straight into the icy cold weather where it sounds like they were stuck for quite a while!

 

[theageofthetra]

Northern didn't kick them out. The findings of the Hidden report into why 35 people died at Clapham Junction did.

 

[Starmill]

Northern didn't kick them out. The findings of the Hidden report into why 35 people died at Clapham Junction did.

I mean this is a ridiculous comment really. A long wait onboard the warm train for a replacement driver could have been preferable to having passengers wait for an extended period at a station with no indoor waiting area in subzero temperatures late at night. It depends on how long people were left out in the cold, and if someoe could reopen the waiting room and how long it would take to send a replacement driver.

Nobody was disputing the company policy on driver's hours, or the Hidden Report's reccomendations, as you imply.

 

[Eccles1983]

I mean this is a ridiculous comment really. A long wait onboard the warm train for a replacement driver could have been preferable to having passengers wait for an extended period at a station with no indoor waiting area in subzero temperatures late at night. It depends on how long people were left out in the cold, and if someoe could reopen the waiting room and how long it would take to send a replacement driver.

Nobody was disputing the company policy on driver's hours, or the Hidden Report's reccomendations, as you imply.

A replacement driver at 10pm?

Good luck with that, unless you fancied a 6hour wait for the morning turn.

 

[theking]

Am i missing something?

The train listed above on rt departed at 2304.

Next train to skipton departed 9 minutes later at 2313.

Surely people can manage 9 minutes in british "sub zero" temps we are not talking about siberia here.

 

[jamesst]

Am i missing something?

The train listed above on rt departed at 2304.

Next train to skipton departed 9 minutes later at 2313.

Surely people can manage 9 minutes in british "sub zero" temps we are not talking about siberia here.

Not in this day and age, everything has to be a drama

 

[Bantamzen]

Am i missing something?

The train listed above on rt departed at 2304.

Next train to skipton departed 9 minutes later at 2313.

Surely people can manage 9 minutes in british "sub zero" temps we are not talking about siberia here.

To be fair the listed train did arrive at Shipley at 22:53, so they would have had a 20 minute wait assuming they were chucked off immediately. However at the time the driver may have assumed, wrongly it seems, that the subsequent Leeds-Skipton would be close behind given that his/her service was 30+ late. Even so there were plenty of other trains delayed yesterday evening, so they were far from alone.

 

[DarloRich]

Northern didn't kick them out. The findings of the Hidden report into why 35 people died at Clapham Junction did.

Is the correct answer. That wont stop the usual overreaction mind.

 

[DarloRich]

I mean this is a ridiculous comment really. A long wait onboard the warm train for a replacement driver could have been preferable to having passengers wait for an extended period at a station with no indoor waiting area in subzero temperatures late at night. It depends on how long people were left out in the cold, and if someoe could reopen the waiting room and how long it would take to send a replacement driver.

Nobody was disputing the company policy on driver's hours, or the Hidden Report's reccomendations, as you imply.

No. It is an accurate comment, if a little direct. Also your suggestion of waiting for a new driver is, while interesting, not entirely practical. How long do you think that might take to arrange such a replacement? How many other trains should be delayed and their passengers inconvenienced to let these passengers stay on the train?

The needs of many and all that!

 

[Deafdoggie]

I know noone did in this case, but if this event happened and someone had died, or taken seriously ill, due to the cold, would the railway really say "We had no choice-Hidden Report. Better to have left them freeze to death than let them stay on a warm train till alternative transport arrives" There are many people who should not be left out in the cold, elderly, those of us with certain medical conditions who do not look obviously like we should not get cold. I plan my journeys to avoid this, but if then exposed to it through no fault of mine, I don't find "Hidden Report" in any way at all a satisfactory response. Basically you are saying "If you die as a result of this, we will have a report telling us to do something else, which we will blindly follow, ignoring any other risks, until someone else dies"

 

[talltim]

Why are Northern sending out a driver with not enough hours left to finish their shift?

 

[DanDaDriver]

I know noone did in this case, but if this event happened and someone had died, or taken seriously ill, due to the cold, would the railway really say "We had no choice-Hidden Report. Better to have left them freeze to death than let them stay on a warm train till alternative transport arrives" There are many people who should not be left out in the cold, elderly, those of us with certain medical conditions who do not look obviously like we should not get cold. I plan my journeys to avoid this, but if then exposed to it through no fault of mine, I don't find "Hidden Report" in any way at all a satisfactory response. Basically you are saying "If you die as a result of this, we will have a report telling us to do something else, which we will blindly follow, ignoring any other risks, until someone else dies"

If you manage to die after 9 minutes outside in the UK then you should probably stick to taxis, or possibly some sort of bubble.

All night is clearly different, but 9 minutes??

 

[Deafdoggie]

We have established it was 20 minutes. It was sub-zero temperatures. You can-in certain circumstances-die after 5 minutes exposure.

 

[Tio Terry]

I think you will find the Hidden Report makes allowances for exceptional circumstances. Clearly, because of the delays, this was an exceptional circumstance. There have been many examples of railway staff working longer than Hidden requirements in exceptional circumstances, is this linked to any industrial action?

 

[Iskra]

We have established it was 20 minutes. It was sub-zero temperatures. You can-in certain circumstances-die after 5 minutes exposure.

Certain circumstances, being; if you've been swimming in the Atlantic for the previous 3 hours?

Was it actually sub zero? Here in Sheffield the night started getting warmer from 9pm moving from -2 in the early evening to plus 2 by the early hours.

 

[mpthomson]

We have established it was 20 minutes. It was sub-zero temperatures. You can-in certain circumstances-die after 5 minutes exposure.

Certain cirumstances that are vanishingly unlikely to occur on a UK train platform and in the company of others. Like the temperature being minus 40 having been completely immersed in water....

 

[bb21]

If we cannot discuss things sensibly without bitching then no further discussion will be permittedd.

 

[The_Train]

Do we actually know that these passengers were left out in the cold? Might just be my eyes but I can't see anything confirming this in any posts on here thus far.

At the end of the day, if the driver had run out of hours then there was little else that could be done. I'm sure the TOC would have gone through the options available to them - could they leave the unit in the platform and route around it? If not then would it be safe to leave passengers at a station for a short period of time? I certainly doubt any decision was made on a whim without any concern for passenger safety

 

[mpthomson]

We have established it was 20 minutes. It was sub-zero temperatures. You can-in certain circumstances-die after 5 minutes exposure.

I am a medical professional and I teach environmental injury avoidance, both cold and heat related, to serving soldiers as part of my duties.

No-one is going to die in five (or even twenty) minutes of exposure in normal UK winter weather conditions, though you may well be uncomfortably cold. Exposure deaths in 5 minutes are almost always related to immersion in cold water , not a likely circumstance on Saltaire station.

 

[westcoaster]

Trying to work out the hours issue, it could be one of two things.
Firstly it could be, he would bust 12 hour duty time, but highly unlikely. As the train would not have left leeds.
Secondly it could just be his daily hours, for example his job lenght might be 9 hours, but with late running might go out to 9hr45min. Which would be 45 mins forced overtime.

 

[Iskra]

Trying to work out the hours issue, it could be one of two things.
Firstly it could be, he would bust 12 hour duty time, but highly unlikely. As the train would not have left leeds.
Secondly it could just be his daily hours, for example his job lenght might be 9 hours, but with late running might go out to 9hr45min. Which would be 45 mins forced overtime.

It could also have caused a breach in the drivers mimimum rest period before their shift the next day.

 

[theking]

Nothing is being made up to suit hidden.

I find it hard to believe everyone was kicked off as soon as the train pulled up.

If you can't stay outside in the open for circa 15 mins because you will die then maybe you should not be using anything but specialised transport for your own well being.

 

[ComUtoR]

It could also have caused a breach in the drivers mimimum rest period before their shift the next day.

That tends to result in being booked off after rest.

 

[axlecounter]

It could also have caused a breach in the drivers mimimum rest period before their shift the next day.

In this case surely the sensible thing to do would be to delay starting time on the next day?

 

[Dieseldriver]

It could also have caused a breach in the drivers mimimum rest period before their shift the next day.

Exactly. Also, it may not have even been the end of their day. They may have been due their PNB and to ensure they could have a minimum PNB and pick up their next working OK, control may have decided to take this course of action. Or, it may not have been a PNB, it may have been to ensure the Driver was in place to relieve their next working.
I never like the way traincrew delays are announced and I have personally been subjected to abuse as a result of it. If they say 'delayed due to awaiting traincrew' and you then see the Driver nonchalantly stroll up to the front, it's not because they are an uncaring, militant slob. It's probably because they have literally just stepped off a late incoming train and hopped straight over to your one. It could be because their previous working was late making them late on their now, much shorter PNB after dealing with a stressful journey (maybe degraded working, maybe rectifying a fault on a packed passenger train).

 

[Bantamzen]

We have established it was 20 minutes. It was sub-zero temperatures. You can-in certain circumstances-die after 5 minutes exposure.

Well, up to 20 minutes. The unit sat at P2 Shipley for over 10 minutes, so it may have possibly been less if the driver was in communication with their control and hadn't immediately detrained the passengers.

Certain circumstances, being; if you've been swimming in the Atlantic for the previous 3 hours?

Was it actually sub zero? Here in Sheffield the night started getting warmer from 9pm moving from -2 in the early evening to plus 2 by the early hours.

I live a couple of miles from Shipley & at slightly higher level, and at 10pm when I went to bed it has risen to about 1 & was slowly rising, not taking into account any wind chill, although it wasn't particularly windy yesterday.

 

[RAPC]

Also there is an assumption here that it was a lovely, warm train. It’s often warmer opening the windows than keeping them closed on some units.

Haven’t had a unit with operational heating so far this week.

 

[Dren Ahmeti]

Some backstory:
333002+333012 running as 5D74 failed in Platform 2 at Shipley which caused a bit of chaos. GSMR was defective in one of the cabs and the driver couldn’t take power either. Northern Control didn’t want to authorise an EBS (Emergency Bypass Switch, thank you @Eccles1983) at first, but even when they did authorise it, the brakes didn’t release.
This service (2H78) was, coincidentally, the first service to arrive in Platform 2 after the dead units were taken back to Leeds.
The failed units were taken out by the driver of 2P75, which is what caused the delays, as the driver had to come from Bradford Forester Square.

 

[Eccles1983]

EBS - emergency bypass switch. Not brake release.

 

[driver_m]

There's not going to be any seriously ill people or elderly travelling around at that time of night anyway surely?? A train at that time of night would be more likely to be a vomit comet and therefore anyone kicked offore likely than not to have their beer coat on which magically warms you up in sub zero temps!! Seroiusly though, They're hard and fast rules which no one would bat an eyelid if it was a pilot going over hours. A train driver is no different and yet there seems to be more pressure on us to put up with this kind of thing. (We can go over work hours, but not driving hours without an enforced break period)