23/01/19 21:56 Leeds to Skipton - passengers kicked off at Shipley as driver had exceeded hours?

[Tio Terry]

I've managed a couple of very long engineering over-runs lately where we were waiting for rested staff to become available. I've also dealt with the disruption from extreme weather, and other large scale disruption. Even then, exceeding 12hours isn't all that common.

The impression I got from Tio Terry wasn't that it was under exceptional circumstances, but that it was regular occurrence to prevent over-runs. If that is happening on a regular basis, it needs dealing with, because it shouldn't be.

If you read my comments you will see that I have never, ever, suggested that excessive hours should or are worked to prevent over-runs as you suggest above.

I have only said that they are worked because of over-runs.

 

[R G NOW.]

I remember an occasion in Gloucester where a train had to be delayed for half an hour while the driver took a break, because his replacement one did not show up. But on this occasion, the passengers stayed on the train and waited for him to return. Other trains were routed into other platforms. When he finally came back, the conductor locked the doors and the train went. Although it was terminated at Westbury instead of running to Frome. People for Frome were provided taxis from Westbury.

 

[LAX54]

I love this forum sometimes, we have gone from a detraining of some people in normal January Conditions to what if they had all frozen to death like in the film 'Day After Tomorrow'.....

No one here actually knows what happened, but Northern seem to be getting a lot of criticism!

BBC Weather said it was roughly 1c late evening, so chiilly, but not Alaska weather also quite funny that people say the railway can't cope with -6 maybe -10 degrees, yet it is after 10 mins (or less as some said) its a matter of life and death at 1 degree

2H76 had a unit swap, (arrived in 4, and departed from 5 with the unit that was there) and 2H78 ran fast to Skipton (as a passenger)

 

[Bikeman78]

Some backstory:
333002+333012 running as 5D74 failed in Platform 2 at Shipley which caused a bit of chaos. GSMR was defective in one of the cabs and the driver couldn’t take power either. Northern Control didn’t want to authorise an EBS (Emergency Bypass Switch, thank you @Eccles1983) at first, but even when they did authorise it, the brakes didn’t release.
This service (2H78) was, coincidentally, the first service to arrive in Platform 2 after the dead units were taken back to Leeds.
The failed units were taken out by the driver of 2P75, which is what caused the delays, as the driver had to come from Bradford Forester Square.

The whole story is rather strange. If the driver was so close to running out of hours, why did the train depart Leeds in the first place? Was it a Skipton driver? Running non stop from Shipley to Skipton saved 10 minutes. The back working 2H79 ran 40 late calling all booked stops, presumably with a different driver? I did wonder if control were trying to protect the last train out of Skipton heading south but they appear to have covered that by holding 2H04 until 22:48. So 2H79 didn't need to run, it could have run empty if required.

 

[Bikeman78]

AFAIK it ran in service but non stop. The return train called as booked.

Which is the part of the story that doesn't make sense. Another train had already left Skipton in the path of 2H79 before 2H78 even arrived at Shipley. But hindsight is wonderful. For all we know control might have had three other incidents ongoing at the same time.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Something doesn't stack up. If the driver was out of hours at Shipley then going fast up to Skipton then coming back all shacks doesn't make sense. Surely the driver would switch ends at Shipley and go ECS back to Leeds.

So if he had enough hours left to get to Skipton, then the reason is about delay mitigation. And when it's 11pm and 1C, turfing people off at Shipley is not acceptable. Shipley station is a cold and windy place to while away the time in the nicest weather, never mind January. I'd say Northern made a duff call in that case.

 

[PHILIPE]

Also seemingly strange is that the OP has never been back since the first post

 

[DanDaDriver]

Also seemingly strange is that the OP has never been back since the first post

Probably frozen to the platform.

 

[Bantamzen]

Also seemingly strange is that the OP has never been back since the first post

Probably frozen to the platform.

I'll keep an eye out for them this afternoon on my way home through Shipley.....

As for the circumstances being strange, they do seem to I agree. But looking at the various evening services on the Aire there seemed to be a stack of problems that mounted up, failed units, drivers running out of hours etc. Sometimes these things just happen, and at the risk of attracting flack, you just have to deal with it. Perhaps Northern's decision to run the service fast to Skipton & detrain intermediate passengers at Shipley to catch the following stopper was to ensure that the return to Leeds could run and not strand passengers at Skipton? Who knows? But I'm pretty certain everyone got home, albeit late & cold and that relevant claims were made for Delay Repay.

 

[daylightatthegrids]

Why are Northern sending out a driver with not enough hours left to finish their shift?

It might have been the driver that had brought the very same train into that station who was caught in disruption and by rules he went over the time he was entitled to go on break, finish on time. T&Cs for staff change in every company but as long as you don't do that job you'll never understand how complicate they are.

 

[TUC]

A replacement driver at 10pm?

Good luck with that, unless you fancied a 6hour wait for the morning turn.

So your solution for Northern's duty of care to their passengers is?? (If, for example the next train would have been one hour later rather than nine minutes?)

 

[TUC]

There's not going to be any seriously ill people or elderly travelling around at that time of night anyway surely.

Dsabled and older people do travel at night.

 

[driver_m]

Dsabled and older people do travel at night.

If I had a seriously ill or very old relative, I wouldn't have them travelling round on a train at night. I'd give them a lift. If I was seriously ill, the last thing I'd want to be doing is travelling round late at night . Based on my own findings with driving late night trains, there are very few of either.

 

[Eccles1983]

So your solution for Northern's duty of care to their passengers is?? (If, for example the next train would have been one hour later rather than nine minutes?)

I never said I had one.

But thinking about it, rustling up a coach would of sufficed.

The point was that they don't have spare drivers sat around at 10pm. The last spare driver books on at around 6pm, and generally is used.

If you want more spare drivers write to your mp. But also expect to pay for it.

 

[TUC]

I never said I had one.

But thinking about it, rustling up a coach would of sufficed.

The point was that they don't have spare drivers sat around at 10pm. The last spare driver books on at around 6pm, and generally is used.

If you want more spare drivers write to your mp. But also expect to pay for it.

I'm not suggesting spare drivers. I am suggesting that, esp. if it was a late or infrequent service and at an unstaffed station, the train crew has a duty to remain there until they are able to give a clear answer for passengers on alternative arrangements and a contact number for passengers if any problems arise.

 

[Eccles1983]

I'm not suggesting spare drivers. I am suggesting that, esp. if it was a late or infrequent service and at an unstaffed station, the train crew has a duty to remain there until they are able to give a clear answer for passengers on alternative arrangements and a contact number for passengers if any problems arise.

And further delay all the trains behind, causing them to miss connections to last trains etc.

The domino effect is relentless, and 9 times out of ten train crew are no use nor orinament in times of disruption. I can tell you that first hand.

 

[TUC]

And further delay all the trains behind, causing them to miss connections to last trains etc.

The domino effect is relentless, and 9 times out of ten train crew are no use nor orinament in times of disruption. I can tell you that first hand.

Well who do ensure passengers are safe and not stranded in those circumstances?

 

[Eccles1983]

I don't know.

But I am certain that it's not the drivers job.

As I already eluded train crew have no authority to organise anything. Believe me I tried during the chaos of may. I can't even order a taxi for myself, nevermind passengers.

All the while, the trains stack up behind.

 

[TUC]

I don't know.

But I am certain that it's not the drivers job.

As I already eluded train crew have no authority to organise anything. Believe me I tried during the chaos of may. I can't even order a taxi for myself, nevermind passengers

All the while, the trains stack up behind.

I know to train crew can't order taxies but they should contact Control to establish what is happening and advise passengers of this. As with any business if you're in a public facing role, there's first level communication and customer care responsibilities that flow from that. Anyone in such roles is the public face of the business for the issue at hand

 

[Eccles1983]

I know to train crew can't order taxies but they should contact Control to establish what is happening and advise passengers of this. As with any business if you're in a public facing role, there's first level communication and customer care responsibilities that flow from that. Anyone in such roles is the public face of the business for the issue at hand

I'm in a safety critical role. My first priority is safety of trains and the line.

Customer service role comes behind that. You might not like it but that's reality.

But I'll play along, I do ring control and get a non answer if they even do answer it. This is eating up more and more time.

So the trains behind are getting later - I'm not sure you grasp how this delay effects trains for miles away. So by waiting around I now have disrupted potentially thousands of passengers instead of those on the effected train.

 

[driver_m]

I know to train crew can't order taxies but they should contact Control to establish what is happening and advise passengers of this. As with any business if you're in a public facing role, there's first level communication and customer care responsibilities that flow from that. Anyone in such roles is the public face of the business for the issue at hand

It goes without saying that control would know all about a situation like this. We don't sit there in splendid isolation and let everyone else run around whilst doing nothing. You can't take decisions to just dump a train in the middle of nowhere and down tools. It doesn't really work like that . Otherwise the railway would be littered with trains with drivers having impromptu rest breaks. Suitable locations and circumstances all come into play.