23:30 from Kings Cross to Leeds

[yorksrob]

It's a compromise, just as the 2200 Newcastle routing is a compromise. NR didn't want any of these late night trains to be running, the compromise is they run to the main destination but not necessarily on the usual route. The 0425 from Newcastle almost went for a similar reason.

I think there's a compromise to be had in not having lots of competing services through the night (as was the case between London and Gatwick) but also not impeding the main InterCity service to important hub destinations such as Wakefield.

 

[yorksrob]

That is correct, same as many other late-night or early morning services which take unusual routes.



Not much goes on the chord just north of Kirkgate, nor down the Askern. It is a useful little tool in VTEC's box due to its versatility.

Not much good for you, unfortunately.

Perhaps they could run a driver training special a couple of days a month.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I was on this service just under a week ago, and it ran via (I think- it was dark and I was tired having awoken at 0430 CET!) Hambleton to arrive into Leeds from the Neville Hill direction.

One advantage (operationally at least!) of omitting Wakefield is that Westgate station can be closed up for the night.

 

[bb21]

Perhaps they could run a driver training special a couple of days a month.

Gonna cost extra money to run additional trains for driver training purposes which they can satisfy by using normal booked turns.

 

[yorksrob]

Gonna cost extra money to run additional trains for driver training purposes which they can satisfy by using normal booked turns.

Alas, if they can't run 'normal booked' turns without missing one of the main hub stations, does it deserve to be allowed as a normal booked turn ?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I think there's a compromise to be had in not having lots of competing services through the night (as was the case between London and Gatwick) but also not impeding the main InterCity service to important hub destinations such as Wakefield.

I'm not sure I'd describe Wakefield as important, or as a destination ( ) - certainly not at 2am! That it's a hub at all is only really an accident of history due to it being on the main line between Leeds and London while the neighbouring larger towns/cities of Huddersfield and Bradford aren't.

 

[yorksrob]

I was on this service just under a week ago, and it ran via (I think- it was dark and I was tired having awoken at 0430 CET!) Hambleton to arrive into Leeds from the Neville Hill direction.

One advantage (operationally at least!) of omitting Wakefield is that Westgate station can be closed up for the night.

They should install a Pickett gate to enable passengers to exit the station when the booking hall is closed.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm not sure I'd describe Wakefield as important, or as a destination ( ) - certainly not at 2am! That it's a hub at all is only really an accident of history due to it being on the main line between Leeds and London while the neighbouring larger towns/cities of Huddersfield and Bradford aren't.

Well it's the main InterCity hub for a large swathe of West Yorkshire. Yes, there won't be many people going to a show there at 2:00 in the morning, but there would potentially be a lot coming back from London or elsewhere.

 

[The Planner]

Like all the rest of the ECML, they should have the nights they actually need for maintenance and stump up for an RRB.

NR dont have to pay for anything as its a standard block the operator agrees to. It only attracts compensation for buses when it is outside those times via schedule 4.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Well it's the main InterCity hub for a large swathe of West Yorkshire. Yes, there won't be many people going to a show there at 2:00 in the morning, but there would potentially be a lot coming back from London or elsewhere.

In an ideal world, that late train would run via the usual route and serve Westgate... But those diversionary routes need to be kept active on on crews' route knowledge, so the least-worst option is to use that late service to cover those routes. A stop there would be useful for Huddersfield, Dewsbury and Batley, but in the case of Huddersfield the overnight TPE services provide a connection. For Dewsbury and Batley it's a taxi job, and the cost would be broadly similar from either Wakefield or Leeds. A call on that last service should be filed under "it'd be nice" rather than "it's essential".

If the main Leeds to London line had been routed through Huddersfield though, Wakefield would possibly be in the position Hudds is in- with NO London services at all. In that case, as a settlement it'd have a similar status to Castleford, just with a big church!

 

[yorksrob]

NR dont have to pay for anything as its a standard block the operator agrees to. It only attracts compensation for buses when it is outside those times via schedule 4.

I'm not really fussed about the ins and outs, so long as Wakefield gets the full InterCity service that the other core ECML stations get.

 

[yorksrob]

In an ideal world, that late train would run via the usual route and serve Westgate... But those diversionary routes need to be kept active on on crews' route knowledge, so the least-worst option is to use that late service to cover those routes. A stop there would be useful for Huddersfield, Dewsbury and Batley, but in the case of Huddersfield the overnight TPE services provide a connection. For Dewsbury and Batley it's a taxi job, and the cost would be broadly similar from either Wakefield or Leeds. A call on that last service should be filed under "it'd be nice" rather than "it's essential".

If the main Leeds to London line had been routed through Huddersfield though, Wakefield would possibly be in the position Hudds is in- with NO London services at all. In that case, as a settlement it'd have a similar status to Castleford, just with a big church!

At the moment, the last train runs fairly close to Wakefield, by-passing it by taking the East facing curve at Wakefield Kirkgate. Would it not be a relatively simple amendment to reverse that into Wakefield Westgate instead ? Then aren't one of the new Bradford services going to cover the Hambleton route, so there is effectively no good reason to by-pass Wakefield.

It's worth remembering that Wakefield is the InterCity stop for Castleford and a lot of surrounding towns in the area.

 

[The Planner]

So just so I understand it, this is the section between Marshgate Jn, South Kirkby Jn, Hare Park and Wakefield and into Leeds? The bit on midweek nights where we only get 0030 to 0520 midweek nights 4 times a year between Marshgate and Hare Park and 0025 to 0525 midweek nights 8 times a year between Hare Park and Copley Hill.

 

[yorksrob]

So just so I understand it, this is the section between Marshgate Jn, South Kirkby Jn, Hare Park and Wakefield and into Leeds? The bit on midweek nights where we only get 0030 to 0520 midweek nights 4 times a year between Marshgate and Hare Park and 0025 to 0525 midweek nights 8 times a year between Hare Park and Copley Hill.

Yes, I believe so.

If you're only working on it 4 - 8 times a year anyway, it seems pointless to close it all year round.

 

[DarloRich]

So just so I understand it, this is the section between Marshgate Jn, South Kirkby Jn, Hare Park and Wakefield and into Leeds? The bit on midweek nights where we only get 0030 to 0520 midweek nights 4 times a year between Marshgate and Hare Park and 0025 to 0525 midweek nights 8 times a year between Hare Park and Copley Hill.

none of that matters: Wakefield. The centre of the universe is at stake.

Yes, I believe so.

If you're only working on it 4 - 8 times a year anyway, it seems pointless to close it all year round.

it will be cheaper than arranging alternatives.

 

[yorksrob]

none of that matters: Wakefield. The centre of the universe is at stake.

Please confirm I'm not missing something here. Is my interpretation of what The Planner saying that they only work on the route at night four to eight times a year correct ?

 

[The Planner]

Yes, I believe so.

If you're only working on it 4 - 8 times a year anyway, it seems pointless to close it all year round.

But we are not though, those are the standard times we get to work on the line, outside those 4 or 8 periods the line should be open unless something else is happening in the Leeds area.

 

[DarloRich]

Please confirm I'm not missing something here. Is my interpretation of what The Planner saying that they only work on the route at night four to eight times a year correct ?

You are missing the fact I am saying that a mountain is being created out of very little. In honesty how many passengers does this impact? other than you

Bottom line: Most often the line is open but VTEC take a different route, basically to save money on training runs.

 

[yorksrob]

But we are not though, those are the standard times we get to work on the line, outside those 4 or 8 periods the line should be open unless something else is happening in the Leeds area.

In that case it sounds as though I was told an untruth when East Coast (I can't remember which version) said that NR had asked them to remove the Wakefield stop.

It should be easy to cover those occasions with a RRB.

 

[yorksrob]

You are missing the fact I am saying that a mountain is being created out of very little. In honesty how many passengers does this impact? other than you

Bottom line: Most often the line is open but VTEC take a different route, basically to save money on training runs.

By your argument, if they're not going to bother running the night train to Wakefield, what's the point of running it to any of the ECML stations, apart from the fact that people might want to get back from events in London, which is surely the same for all of the ECML stations ? The catchment area for Wakefield must be as big as for any of the intermediate ECML stops.

 

[DarloRich]

In that case it sounds as though I was told an untruth when East Coast (I can't remember which version) said that NR had asked them to remove the Wakefield stop.

It should be easy to cover those occasions with a RRB.

Easy but with an attached cost especially at stupid o'clock.

By your argument, if they're not going to bother running the night train to Wakefield, what's the point of running it to any of the ECML stations, apart from the fact that people might want to get back from events in London, which is surely the same for all of the ECML stations ? The catchment area for Wakefield must be as big as for any of the intermediate ECML stops.

One train at silly o'clock? The lady doth protest too much, methinks

 

[30907]

Well it's the main InterCity hub for a large swathe of West Yorkshire. Yes, there won't be many people going to a show there at 2:00 in the morning, but there would potentially be a lot coming back from London or elsewhere.

I was on this service just under a week ago, and it ran via (I think- it was dark and I was tired having awoken at 0430 CET!) Hambleton to arrive into Leeds from the Neville Hill direction.

So what was the loading like beyond Newark when you used it? What would an extra 10% look like (arbitrary figure for the "lots" who would use Wakefield but would not currently use Leeds or Doncaster?

 

[yorksrob]

Easy but with an attached cost especially at stupid o'clock.

One train at silly o'clock? The lady doth protest too much, methinks

The TOC should be forced to absorb that cost as they would for any other RRB.

It might only be one train at silly o'clock, but its the one which makes the difference between being able to get back from a play or a gig or having to stay overnight.

Its also worth pointing out that the Wakefield area is also shoddily treated in terms of late trains back from Leeds as well.

 

[DarloRich]

Its also worth pointing out that the Wakefield area is also shoddily treated in terms of late trains back from Leeds as well.

that I DO agree with.

 

[yorksrob]

that I DO agree with.

Glad we agree on something !

 

[Tetchytyke]

This train misses Wakefield as a compromise between the TOC and NR, just as the 2200 London-Newcastle was split into two separate services for years as a compromise.

Realistically, the alternative is that the train would not run at all. It very nearly didn't.

Perhaps a permanent RRB, as happens with the very late LM departure from Euston on Saturday nights, might be a better compromise. But then I'm sure people would just moan about that too.

 

[yorksrob]

This train misses Wakefield as a compromise between the TOC and NR, just as the 2200 London-Newcastle was split into two separate services for years as a compromise.

Realistically, the alternative is that the train would not run at all. It very nearly didn't.

Perhaps a permanent RRB, as happens with the very late LM departure from Euston on Saturday nights, might be a better compromise. But then I'm sure people would just moan about that too.

To be honest, if they did, it would mean people could get back home without breaking the bank.

But then again, from what The Planner said, NR doesn't seem to be in possession of the route for much time over the year at all, which begs the question why such a compromise is needed in the first place !

 

[61653 HTAFC]

So what was the loading like beyond Newark when you used it? What would an extra 10% look like (arbitrary figure for the "lots" who would use Wakefield but would not currently use Leeds or Doncaster?

The loadings would have comfortably fit on an 8-car EMU* as far as Peterborough, with 4-car being more than adequate from there to Doncaster where it got busier again with drunks heading to Leeds.

I'd have used Wakefield if it stopped there, but it didn't, so I used Leeds: this wasn't the end of the world!

*= the service ran with the 2+8 HST set, so that wouldn't be that big a difference. Whether VTEC had either allowed EVERY seat except the unreservable coach to be reserved by someone, most of whom decided not to travel after all; or whether they stick false reservation tickets in every seat in order to drive demand, is a mystery to me though.

 

[IanXC]

Is this 2152 Wakefield Kirkgate service going to terminate there?

Yep. There will also be a mornings 0504 Wakefield Kirkgate to London Kings Cross (0716).

Both are to eliminate the lodge turns from the GC workings, and to position stock to go onto/off Crofton Depot who I believe are taking over the GC 180 work from Heaton.

 

[Adam0984]

This is also so Westgate doesn't have to open till 2am meaning that the station staff can leave after the last arrival from Sheffield at 00:30ish instead of having to sit around for 90 mins for the 23:30 to arrive