230001 in Polmadie Depot for COP26

[D365]

Hydroflex wasn’t ready in time!

 

[92002]

Hydroflex wasn’t ready in time!

Although it's due to start running from Glasgow today on demonstration runs around the Cathcart circle.

So perhaps a few days late but it's still there.

The other one which was due for COP26 was the Hydrogen 314. Its running late and probably won't appear at the conference. It was due to do a shuttle service to Exhibition Centre to Glasgow Central. However there are many electric buses running from SEC to Glasgow Central, Queen Street and Buchanan bus station. So all is not lost for the delegates.

For the mere locals the interststion bus this week also has an electric double deck bus too.

 

[D365]

Although it's due to start running from Glasgow today on demonstration runs around the Cathcart circle.

So perhaps a few days late but it's still there.

To be (somewhat) more specific - there's no guarantee that it will be running on hydrogen!

 

[92002]

To be (somewhat) more specific - there's no guarantee that it will be running on hydrogen!

Guess you will have to go to Central and find out for yourself from today. Due to run from around 1200.

 

[Woods]

Guess you will have to go to Central and find out for yourself from today. Due to run from around 1200.

The word on the street is that it won't be running on hydrogen. It will be running on the overhead wire. So look out for 'pan up'. It is noticeable that Porterbrook have spun this as being a 'hydrogen ready' train. What an absolutely con!!

 

[hwl]

The word on the street is that it won't be running on hydrogen. It will be running on the overhead wire. So look out for 'pan up'. It is noticeable that Porterbrook have spun this as being a 'hydrogen ready' train. What an absolutely con!!

It has always been a trial unit to discover the issues involved with Hydrogen conversion.
Hydrogen trail are actually battery EMUs with many fuel cells added to enable the use of regenerative braking and reduce peak power requirements form fuel cells roughly halving the number of fuel cells required for off the wires use.

The Porterbrook unit has a single fuel cell that doesn't even cover the train heating requirements, but is enough to provide the learning experience

 

[Woods]

It has always been a trial unit to discover the issues involved with Hydrogen conversion.
Hydrogen trail are actually battery EMUs with many fuel cells added to enable the use of regenerative braking and reduce peak power requirements form fuel cells roughly halving the number of fuel cells required for off the wires use.

The Porterbrook unit has a single fuel cell that doesn't even cover the train heating requirements, but is enough to provide the learning experience

So the hydrogen fuel cell only powers the heating?! What an absolute joke. So in fact, as you say, it's basically a battery train with additional and unnecessary complexity and weight?

Pretty sure that wasn't how it was hyped:

https://www.porterbrook.co.uk/innovation/case-studies/hydroflex

 

[D365]

So the hydrogen fuel cell only powers the heating?! What an absolute joke. So in fact, as you say, it's basically a battery train with additional and unnecessary complexity and weight?

Pretty sure that wasn't how it was hyped:

https://www.porterbrook.co.uk/innovation/case-studies/hydroflex

They ran out of time to get it fully working before COP26.

 

[hwl]

So the hydrogen fuel cell only powers the heating?! What an absolute joke. So in fact, as you say, it's basically a battery train with additional and unnecessary complexity and weight?

Pretty sure that wasn't how it was hyped:

https://www.porterbrook.co.uk/innovation/case-studies/hydroflex

No that isn't what I said, it can be used to help supply traction power but it isn't even enough to power the heating (if turned on) on its own on version 1 of Hydroflex.

Hydroflex version 2 with much more fuels cell capacity isn't ready yet hence battery /OHLE for the COP running.

The key point about all hydrogen MUs as you have summarised is indeed "it's basically a battery train with additional and unnecessary complexity and weight"

 

[Woods]

No that isn't what I said, it can be used to help supply traction power but it isn't even enough to power the heating (if turned on) on its own on version 1 of Hydroflex.

Hydroflex version 2 with much more fuels cell capacity isn't ready yet hence battery /OHLE for the COP running.

The key point about all hydrogen MUs as you have summarised is indeed "it's basically a battery train with additional and unnecessary complexity and weight"

And will all this small print be made clear in the inevitable press releases trumpeting what the serried masses of Porterbrook and Birmingham's innovative engineers have achieved which is, er, converting a Class 319 from an EMU into a less-efficient EMU! I think not....this all seems like last-minute fudge to me.

 

[ScottDarg]

The word on the street is that it won't be running on hydrogen. It will be running on the overhead wire. So look out for 'pan up'. It is noticeable that Porterbrook have spun this as being a 'hydrogen ready' train. What an absolutely con!!

As predicted it was running off the overheads on its first run around the circle this morning.

Video of it arriving at Glasgow this morning was posted by Porterbrook:

#HydroFLEX arriving at Glasgow Central station this morning. Thanks to all our supply chain partners, a brilliant example of the UK rail supply chain working together #TogetherForOurPlanet #COP26 https://t.co/uGx0BvDt3L

https://twitter.com/PorterbrookRail/status/1456211511341428739?t=Id6pfI2nbstrJh4CUsOc6w&s=19

 

[Woods]

As predicted it was running off the overheads on its first run around the circle this morning.

Video of it arriving at Glasgow this morning was posted by Porterbrook:

https://twitter.com/PorterbrookRail/status/1456211511341428739?t=Id6pfI2nbstrJh4CUsOc6w&s=19

Yep, you can see the pantograph is up in that video. How farcical.

 

[Am Broc]

Does anybody know when the "hydrogen" unit is running tomorrow?

I'd quite like to go out and get a photo.

Is this its path?? https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K09514/2021-11-05/detailed

I managed to catch the 230 at Crossmyloof yesterday: https://www.flickr.com/photos/amaccaluim/51648565317

 

[Wyrleybart]

Does anybody know when the "hydrogen" unit is running tomorrow?

I'd quite like to go out and get a photo.

Is this its path?? https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K09514/2021-11-05/detailed

I managed to catch the 230 at Crossmyloof yesterday: https://www.flickr.com/photos/amaccaluim/51648565317

It is early days yet for the hydrogen test trains, but I am struggling to understand why 799001 seems to have been abandoned in favour of 799201. Would it not have been easier to refit 799001 with the upgraded fuel cell arrangement rather than convert another unit ? Unless of course 799001 is not able o accommodate the upgrade for whatever reason.

Personal opinion is green hydrogen is too much of a faff and battery is the next policy to full electrification. If you have to use electricity to create hydrogen, then use on board hydrogen to create electricity for heat and traction on the trains, may as well just store and use the electricity through a mic of OLE and batteries.

I think Vivarail have discounted anymore diesel activity and will be surprised if they don't focus totally on battery energy storage and quick charge.

Re the comment further up about 230001 being for sale, is it not tied into the Greenford project for 12 months first ? Or maybe Vivarail are converting another unit, particularly as I had read they are two send some more cars over to the USA to augment 230002.

 

[Richard Scott]

Genini works Based on 440v x 1000amps = 440,000 watts, (440kw) and 0.75d per kw charging, (with inflation from 1956 to today is about £2.10 per kw) / 100 mile range… 21p per mile, Gemini is still more economical than a Class 230…

For the 230, Based on the quotes of £2.20 a mile, c60 mile range, and reported (wiki) 4*106kw batteries at 750v to operate… the operating characteristics are similar, its batteries cheaper, but its per mile cost considerably higher.

Just stumbled across this topic. You use the unit kW, which is a unit of power in a lot of this, do you mean kWh, which is a unit of energy? Assuming the 440kW of Gemini its output power? But then say 0.75d/kW, guessing that's actually 0.75d/kWh? Sorry to be pedantic but is a little confusing as to what's being referred to at each point.

 

[Neen Sollars]

According to the article on Vivarail website "A week of firsts at COP26", a potential US customer wants to buy 230001. Looks as if Vivarail have an order for one two car train for the "pop up". So the new factory will not be flat out.

 

[qpsnapper]

Saw the Hydroflex in Central this morning and 230001 came in as my train was leaving.

 

[D365]

So the new factory will not be flat out.

How do you know that it won't be?

 

[Sm5]

According to the article on Vivarail website "A week of firsts at COP26", a potential US customer wants to buy 230001. Looks as if Vivarail have an order for one two car train for the "pop up". So the new factory will not be flat out.

Could become a new fashion item in the US..buy an old London tube train as a play thing.

or.. One off purchases of tech to the US … I wonder if its to “study“ the technology instead ?

 

[option]

History repeats itself…

in 1956 the BTC negotiated with Scottish power to charge 0.75d per unit to charge 79998/9 (later Test Unit Gemini) a 2 car Battery powered Derby lightweight to run on the Aberdeen Ballater line.
I understood it could manage around 100 Miles on a charge, but was charged at each end of the line.
(railcar.co.uk website).

Gemini is still with us, and in Scotland too.

I dont know its performance today, but back in the 1980’s Ive ridden on it for upto 40 miles on a charge using its aging batteries then.

(someone keep me honest and check my maths)
Genini works Based on 440v x 1000amps = 440,000 watts, (440kw) and 0.75d per kw charging, (with inflation from 1956 to today is about £2.10 per kw) / 100 mile range… 21p per mile, Gemini is still more economical than a Class 230…

For the 230, Based on the quotes of £2.20 a mile, c60 mile range, and reported (wiki) 4*106kw batteries at 750v to operate… the operating characteristics are similar, its batteries cheaper, but its per mile cost considerably higher.

it does have some efficiences though, according to Rail Engineer the 230’s battery/genset is c3 tons, Geminis was over 30 tons. Its batteries cost £50k in 1956, thats just over £1mn in 2021.. Vivarail wins on that, Rail Engineer suggests is £100k, though only a 7 year life… when I was on Gemini its batteries were 30 years old and still half life.

Summice, in 65 years, weve reduced the upfront cost & weight of the battery, at expense of the operational range and battery life.. but still not progressed technology beyond a 2 car unit running on test in Scotland…

its a pity Gemini isnt in Glasgow this week, it’d certainly give the 230 a run for its money… if Gemini had the batteries of the 230 replacing the size/weight space it’d straight beat the 230 into the ground in operational range and cost… its not too late to try it, and Gemini does need new batteries I understand.

Oil heating, manual doors, basic toilet, no cab radio, safety systems etc
The only electrical items on the BEMU/Gemini were the motors, air brake & lights.

The 3car 230 also carries about an extra 70 passengers seated.


So, your not comparing like for like.

 

[DAH37403]

Are there any details of the class 230 run on Saturday, I’d be very interested in photographing it? Thanks for any info, I couldn’t see anything on RTT.

The class 314 has just been renumbered 614209! Series for units powered by diesel ‘or other fuel’.

Lots of photo and video updates on the ex-Class 314 conversion at:

Scotland's Hydrogen train. - RealRail

Bo'ness Hydrogen Skunk Works. Arrival video: https://youtu.be/ejt3cBgfKd4 Update video: https://youtu.be/V6mdeeYi7-0 Family day video visit: https://youtu.be/kOJNX77vCXk New photos at bottom of gallery: 138 photos + 4 Videos added 30th September 2022 to 18th January 2023. New testing videos at...

realrail.smugmug.com

DAH

 

[Chris125]

Cabride of a Barrhead trip yesterday has been uploaded, can't recall seeing one of a vivarail unit before? Great way to see how the wiring has progressed too:

 

[A-Jay]

Cabride of a Barrhead trip yesterday has been uploaded, can't recall seeing one of a vivarail unit before? Great way to see how the wiring has progressed too:

That's my video thanks for sharing

 

[Skymonster]

Has the 230 made it all the way back to base yet, or is it still en route and being recharged for the umpteenth time?

 

[D365]

Has the 230 made it all the way back to base yet, or is it still en route and being recharged for the umpteenth time?

I’m not even sure where 001 is based now that Long Marston is a Porterbrook site.

 

[Woods]

I’m not even sure where 001 is based now that Long Marston is a Porterbrook site.

230001 is still at Polmadie and the plan is to bring it to Bletchley for storage in the next few weeks (by road). There it will be modified with Fast Charge equipment and tested, ready for working on the Greenford branch in 2022, subject to Vivarail winning the job.

 

[Skymonster]

230001 is still at Polmadie and the plan is to bring it to Bletchley for storage alongside 230003 - 230005 in the next few weeks (by road). There it will be modified with Fast Charge equipment and tested, ready for working on the Greenford branch in 2022, subject to Vivarail winning the job.

ROTFLMAO….So it isnt capable of moving very far under its own power…. And “… storage alongside 230003 - 230005…” sounds appropriate - I’m not surprised but I didn’t realise the other three were already sidelined.

Time to ditch the whole D-stock experiments IMO.

 

[43096]

ROTFLMAO….So it isnt capable of moving very far under its own power…. And “… storage alongside 230003 - 230005…” sounds appropriate - I’m not surprised but I didn’t realise the other three were already sidelined.

Time to ditch the whole D-stock experiments IMO.

230003-005 aren't stored. What do you think is working the Bedford-Bletchley service (the ones what West Mids can find crews for)?

 

[Fincra5]

ROTFLMAO….So it isnt capable of moving very far under its own power…. And “… storage alongside 230003 - 230005…” sounds appropriate - I’m not surprised but I didn’t realise the other three were already sidelined.

Time to ditch the whole D-stock experiments IMO.

Well Polmadie to Bletchley is quite the distance... I don't think VivaRail have ever designed it as replacement for Intercity Routes. And the Bletchley-Bedford Shuttle barely runs due the the Covid Timetable.

 

[Woods]

ROTFLMAO….So it isnt capable of moving very far under its own power…. And “… storage alongside 230003 - 230005…” sounds appropriate - I’m not surprised but I didn’t realise the other three were already sidelined.

Time to ditch the whole D-stock experiments IMO.

As others have pointed out, you have misunderstood. 230003 - 230005 are not stored, they are in active service running the Marston Vale line. Bad choice of words, original post now edited. And as others have pointed out, Polmadie to Bletchley is some 360 miles and 230001's six big batteries were never designed to go that far. You wouldn't get steam locos going that distance without stopping for water let alone a battery train without charging it so perhaps it's time to ditch the whole steam experiment Mr Stephenson IMO ROTFLMAO FFS

But seriously even if it was charged en route by Vivarail's mobile (lorry-based) charger, there would still be route clearance issues such as gauging to contend with and I expect that Vivarail consider it to be more cost effective to transport it over such a distance by road rather than loco hauling it by rail, such are the upsidedown economics of today's railway system.

ROTFLMAO….So it isnt capable of moving very far under its own power….

Oh and p.s. 230001 is still capable of moving further under its own power than HydroFlex, which needs a pantograph