24 Hour Routes In 10 Years Time

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by dmacw, 22 Oct 2011.

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  1. dmacw

    dmacw Member

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    A few routes at the moment run 24 hours a day, can anyone think how this may change in 10 years time?

    Will the demand/route availability extend to somewhere like Oxford to Reading or London to Birmingham?

    Likewise could demand fall for London to Reading?
     
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  3. The Planner

    The Planner Established Member

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    Unless we get better at single line working (and putting back in all the crossovers that have been ripped out to save cash....) or go full bi-di or simbids on lines then I cannot see much more than what we have now. Engineering work will still need to be done.
     
  4. anthony263

    anthony263 Established Member

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    When there is now engineering work or the route has at least 3-4 tracks which could be used then perhaps.

    1 route I would suggest is between Cardiff & Bristol Temple Meads or between Reading & Oxford.

    Perhaps also the route between Reading & Gatwick or Bassingstoke?
     
  5. The Planner

    The Planner Established Member

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    2 track timetables already exist between Paddington and Reading and on the WCML overnight.
     
  6. route:oxford

    route:oxford Established Member

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    Little point in London:oxford (for which Reading:oxford would be a by-product) 24 hour service. If the late evening services are anything to go by, it's quicker to take the coach to Oxford at night than it is to use the train.

    Thinking about it... At one point, didn't Thames Trains allow an overnight return on the Espress?
     
    Last edited: 22 Oct 2011
  7. YorkshireBear

    YorkshireBear Established Member

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    I think the ultimate aim is to have more of a 24 hour railway, but i think it can only be done on routes where sufficent diversions can be in place for engineering works.

    I can't think of many extra ones now but i imagine eventually more sleepers will run out of london.
     
  8. SS4

    SS4 Established Member

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    I think it would be nice to see, especially outside London but I don't think there is all that much demand for it. I suppose long distance services would be handy to run overnight (XC Scotland-West Country) services for example but would be circuitous. I think Birmingham could get a sleeper (I'd certainly like to see it) to either Devon, Cornwall or Scotland
     
  9. Ivo

    Ivo Established Member

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    I can kind of see it happening back home. But given that SOV services start at 04:00 and the last arrives at near enough 02:00, that's not a lot of difference...

    Plenty of bi-di capability on the c2c route though, so no reason why not in that sense.
     
  10. Bittern

    Bittern Established Member

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    I think it'd be useful on some routes, certainly. Edinburgh - Glasgow via Falkirk comes to mind.

    What's that? You think Birmingham could get a sleeper to either Devon, Cornwall or Scotland? Well Sweep, I completely agree! Why don't you go tell Sooty about that idea?
     
  11. HH

    HH Established Member

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    There used to be several London routes that ran almost 24 hours. It was great being able to stay in London until ~3 in the morning and still catch a train home.
     
  12. heart-of-wessex

    heart-of-wessex Established Member

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    There is a few still though

    1. As Ivo pointed out, a bit of a light 24 hour running but shorter than the average shutdown time

    2. FGW between Paddington and Reading, and like above, Oxford. I think the Readings don't run through the night on Sunday morning..??

    3. Southern between Victoria and Three Bridges, hourly through the morning

    4. Thameslink from Bedford to Three Bridges, again every hour though for the time being, a RRB is in use from St Pan to London Bridge

    5. LM Euston to Milton Keynes, I think there was an hour there before the 03xx for Euston leaves.

    6. With a 2 hour gap I believe, the SWML to/from Swansea has HSTs


    and there maybe some I missed
     
  13. richw

    richw Established Member

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    I imagine there will be more routes opened up all night. Just look at the number of supermarkets, McDs etc. There has got to be a profitable reason for this, ok supermarkets have staff on stocking up, so not a great deal extra to open a till and let customers in. McDs though wouldnt be opening 24 hrs unless the custom was there, as they shut, clean for an hour and go home, so the 4-5hrs between the night cleaning going and breakfast staff arriving to set up would be a waste of staff labour/ utilities etc unless there was a decent custom level at night.
    I work until 0200am in my employment, and i have noticed a large increase in number of cars on the road at 2am on my 25 min drive home from work, in the last 18months to 2 years
     
  14. Firestarter

    Firestarter Member

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    Like passengers buying tickets for example. :lol::lol::lol:
     
  15. js47604

    js47604 Member

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    Paddington to Reading used to be hourly through the night Mon-Sat but were reduced as virtually nobody travelled on them.Also the case with Euston to Milton Keynes which used to be hourly while there's now nothing between 0134 and 0534
     
  16. DaveNewcastle

    DaveNewcastle Established Member Fares Advisor

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    Itc conceivable that routes which are not available during intense day-time operation could become viable at night, linking areas with higher night-time activity and some key airports. For example:

    Cambridge - Stevenage - Thameslink stations - Gatwick - Brighton

    Edinburgh - Stirling (reversal) - Coatbridge - Glasgow Cen (reversal) - Paisley (for Airport)

    Liverpool - Warrington - Manchester - Huddersfield - Leeds (reversal) - Walkefield - Sheffield - Manchester - Liverpool

    Cardiff - Bristol TM (reversal) - Bath - Reading - Crossrail stations - Canary Wharfe - London City Airport

    Where passenger demand is largely from the leisure sector, overnight services in the future may only be viable on certain nights (eg Fris and Sats only).
     
  17. heart-of-wessex

    heart-of-wessex Established Member

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    Ah I see it's actually Milton Keynes that get the better deal with 0004, 0340 and 0435 to Euston, rather than early ones going back
     
  18. ChiefPlanner

    ChiefPlanner Established Member

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    Euston - MK was hourly all night - both directions - very lightly used - in BR days.

    The answer really is to run northbound up to say 0200 and start soutbound at 0330 or so - as the timetable does , when there are actual passenger's who want to travel. Homeward bound - or early commuters and workers.
     
  19. 142094

    142094 Established Member

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    There aren't many places in the world that are open 24/7 - only things open over here at 2am in the morning are likely to be nightclubs and airports. Not also that much demand from people doing nightshift either. Even in New York, where the city itself is basically open for 24 hours per day, the New York Subway doesn't have that great a ridership during the small hours.

    I've travelled a few times on the TPE services late at night and very early morning between Man Pic and York. You can generally class the two types of passenger very easily - those going on flights and those going home after a night out. A 3 car 185 to transport about 15 people. Plus the train needed cleaning after one of those who'd had a few too many christened the toilet.
     
  20. ushawk

    ushawk Established Member

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    The overnight services which are supposed to run to Brighton terminate at Three Bridges quite a lot for overnight work, if the line was 4 tracked south of Balcombe Tunnel Jct then maybe an overnight service to Brighton may run hourly, but that wont ever happen.

    I think the overnight trains to Three Bridges are primarily to serve Gatwick Airport though. Routes with Airport stations would probably be the most likely to get 24 hour services i believe.
     
  21. coupwotcoup

    coupwotcoup Member

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    Before Liverpool Street was revamped, trains to Southend Vic used to be regular up until 1.30am, then 3.30am, 4.30am then every 20 minutes or so. With so many buses in London now offering a regular 24-hour service, the powers that be would probably not be enthused into running anything later up to say zone 6.
     
  22. dvboy

    dvboy Established Member

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    Wolverhampton-Birmingham Airport or even Coventry could run 24 hours, you can divert via Bescot Stadium or Nuneaton if engineering work needs to take place. We don't have night buses in the West Midlands (not even to the Airport) so currently they only way to get home after about 23:30 on a night out is to spend a small fortune on a taxi or wait until the first bus, tram or train service (to Wolverhampton that's 5:30 Mon-Sat and sometime around 8:00 on a Sunday).
     
  23. WelshBluebird

    WelshBluebird Established Member

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    For most places, a 24 hour service is just not warranted.
    What does need to be looked at IMO is the last services on a lot of routes.
    I find it quite crazy the last direct train from Cardiff to London is at 9.25 for example. Especially when you consider how well that route is serviced through the rest of the day.
     
  24. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

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    Nightbuses in London are more frequent than "day" buses in some cities - its like a different world (here in Sheffield we are getting excited about our first real nightbus, the half hourly Stagecoach N52 starting at the end of this month, to put things in perspective...)

    I think that there is a market for overnight trains, in ten years time there'll be more demand for "local" services overnight than for London - Fort William.

    As well as worrying about engineering, there's also the question about safety at stations - some people find "local" stations unsafe after dusk, so may be unwilling to use them at three in the morning. But then TOCs are unwilling to staff a lot of stations beyond the 9-5 (or even beyond lunchtime!), so there's no chance of putting staff on at every station 24/hrs.

    There's also the issue of shorter trains being more economical to run at those times, rather than a four coach unit...

    So, in essence, maybe the overnight services will exist, but in a different guise to the daytime ones (omitting a number of stations, particularly to give flexibility overnight).
     
  25. Ivo

    Ivo Established Member

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    Speaking of 24 hour services, why doesn't Brighton have a 24-hour service? If FCC can run to Gatwick (for the airport admittedly) why not continue south to what is effectively the UK's second city during the night?
     
  26. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

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    Once the Thameslink core is sorted out (so no major works overnight) then Brighton - Gatwick - London - Luton Airport (Luton) really ought to be able to justify an all night service (thought maybe not with a twelve coach 345)
     
  27. ushawk

    ushawk Established Member

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    The line south of Three Bridges is closed a lot overnight so trains couldnt bypass any work taking place, where as between London and Three Bridges, its 4 track and trains dont call at stations between Purley and Gatwick, so they could go via Redhill, or the fast line.
     
  28. dvboy

    dvboy Established Member

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    Brighton? Really?
     
  29. Ivo

    Ivo Established Member

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    During the night I mean. Realistically, it is some distance from being Second City (Birmingham, Manchester, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Liverpool, York, Leeds, Norwich, Cardiff, Bristol, bla bla bla...) but overnight I would have thought that only London would pass it?

    No actual evidence of this, it's a personal opinion.
     
  30. HH

    HH Established Member

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    Once the core is sorted out then TL will go back to being 24 hour Brighton-Bedford. If NR deliver that will be next May. It will be 377 or 319 until the new Siemens trains are delivered in 2015 (if that doesn't go backwards - DafT are still dithering).
     
  31. anthony263

    anthony263 Established Member

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    I agree with there needing to be a later train from Swansea & London Paddington, a 21:29 would be good, I dont really mind if they decide to run via Bristol TM either.
     
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