26-30 railcard survey - plans to bring in new restrictions

[Alteran Ancient]

No, we should be discouraging individual car travel and, at the same time, not encouraging more overall use of shared and public transport.

People are going to have requirements to travel. You cannot expect people to reduce their reliance on a private vehicle without expecting bus, train and shared forms of transport to pick up some of the demand, surely? It's better to incentivise use of more efficient forms of transport rather than simply expecting people to travel less.

 

[JonathanH]

People are going to have requirements to travel.

Yes

You cannot expect people to reduce their reliance on a private vehicle without expecting bus, train and shared forms of transport to pick up some of the demand, surely?

A lot of people are having a pretty good go at doing just that for the last three weeks and probably a good few months to come.

It's better to incentivise use of more efficient forms of transport rather than simply expecting people to travel less.

It is better to incentivise people who have to travel to use more efficient forms of transport and those who don't have to use any transport not to bother.

 

[Starmill]

If a journey of some length needs to be made, it needs to be made. It is better if these are minimised, but in my view many companies and individuals already had policies or custom and practice that longer journeys need to be necessary to the job before being accepted. Currently, lots of otherwise necessary work is suspended, so the associated travel has been cancelled. We will return to a situation where this resumes, it's just that it's likely that places where this culture wasn't strong will have it more strongly. In business, there are times where more travel is more efficient because it avoids any staff being placed out overnight, among other things.

Once that decision is made that the travel is actually necessary, how it is is made is always worth pushing away from cars and aircraft onto trains. For some journeys obviously some of those options don't actually exist, but where there's a rail service that's viable, it's worthwhile to encourage its use.

Long leisure journeys are 'necessary' in a very different way to business travel. These will continue to be made.

In my personal example there are unlikely to be changes to any of my work travel. I already travelled only where necessary, and this tended to take the form either of site visits or full-day meetings. These are infrequent for me by their nature and it is not likely that these will be reduced.

 

[Hadders]

Working from home is an interesting one. I occasionally am able to do it and I have been working from home for the last couple of weeks. However the business I work for is operating under 'business continuity' conditions. A significant amount of work that would normally be done, much of it face to face, is not being done but this is unsustainable in the long term.

What I think we will see happen is a move to more working form home, not elimination of going to the office. This could have some consequences for travel:

- Fewer people travelling every day so more people buying daily tickets
- These people will feel that as a 'part time' regular commuter they should be able to get a discount on their cost of their travel (a railcard is possibly a better way to achieve this than carnet style products)
- Many people could be persuaded to live further away from the office than at present so although they'd be travelling less often they could be travelling a much further distance a couple of times as week. This could have unintended consequences for capacity as well as fares.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

If nothing else, this thread demonstrates what a mountain to climb/can of worms the government faces in replacing the current fares system.
I can see why the Treasury has put the process on hold for now.
Life after Covid might allow something more radical, if the government has the courage to go for it.

One other method of segmenting the market we never seem to discuss is the commercial separation of local/regional and long-distance services, as they do in Germany and elsewhere.
One thing that distorts commuting from places like Stevenage, Milton Keynes and Reading is that you can get 125mph intercity trains, not cattle class locals.
There has to be a premium for that.
Somebody has to pay for new trains and route upgrades, as BR knew when it introduced market pricing, starting with the WCML after electrification.

 

[AM9]

If nothing else, this thread demonstrates what a mountain to climb/can of worms the government faces in replacing the current fares system.
I can see why the Treasury has put the process on hold for now.
Life after Covid might allow something more radical, if the government has the courage to go for it.

One other method of segmenting the market we never seem to discuss is the commercial separation of local/regional and long-distance services, as they do in Germany and elsewhere.
One thing that distorts commuting from places like Stevenage, Milton Keynes and Reading is that you can get 125mph intercity trains, not cattle class locals.
There has to be a premium for that.
Somebody has to pay for new trains and route upgrades, as BR knew when it introduced market pricing, starting with the WCML after electrification.

That would require breaking up the current GWR franchise into what was IC mainline and something similar to the old Thames Trains followed by TOC specific tickets only to fix the 'Reading problem'. MK has already got reasonable separation and the mix of seevices stopping both there and at Stevenage can easily be fixed with TOC specific tickets. The changes to the overall WCML franchises when HS2 is open where all non-HS2 services might be billed as regional might become a problem though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One other method of segmenting the market we never seem to discuss is the commercial separation of local/regional and long-distance services, as they do in Germany and elsewhere.

The reason we don't discuss that much (and it does come up from time to time) is that it couldn't be done without big frequency reductions to allow paths to be created for an hourly (minimum) local service on all routes. On many UK routes the IC service is the local service. Think the likes of Warrington to Wigan - that is only served by Avanti.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That would require breaking up the current GWR franchise into what was IC mainline and something similar to the old Thames Trains followed by TOC specific tickets only to fix the 'Reading problem'. MK has already got reasonable separation and the mix of seevices stopping both there and at Stevenage can easily be fixed with TOC specific tickets. The changes to the overall WCML franchises when HS2 is open where all non-HS2 services might be billed as regional might become a problem though.

Though do remember that the Avanti services that do stop at commuter times southbound are ones with tons of spare capacity. There is no sense in cramming people on Reading-style when by using Avanti they can get a seat.

There aren't any northbound because it would cause an issue with long distance passengers not getting seats because everyone gets on together.

 

[Hadders]

If nothing else, this thread demonstrates what a mountain to climb/can of worms the government faces in replacing the current fares system.
I can see why the Treasury has put the process on hold for now.
Life after Covid might allow something more radical, if the government has the courage to go for it.

One other method of segmenting the market we never seem to discuss is the commercial separation of local/regional and long-distance services, as they do in Germany and elsewhere.
One thing that distorts commuting from places like Stevenage, Milton Keynes and Reading is that you can get 125mph intercity trains, not cattle class locals.
There has to be a premium for that.
Somebody has to pay for new trains and route upgrades, as BR knew when it introduced market pricing, starting with the WCML after electrification.

No 125mph trains from Stevenage to London in the morning Peak and only very limited opportunities in the evening peak.

 

[AM9]

Though do remember that the Avanti services that do stop at commuter times southbound are ones with tons of spare capacity. There is no sense in cramming people on Reading-style when by using Avanti they can get a seat.

There aren't any northbound because it would cause an issue with long distance passengers not getting seats because everyone gets on together.

The faster services will take on a different role when there is capacity to stop at more regional stations after HS2, possibly relegating the long-distance LNR runs to all stations.

 

[Deerfold]

No 125mph trains from Stevenage to London in the morning Peak and only very limited opportunities in the evening peak.

In the morning there's the 0859 and 0905. Towards the end of the the morning peak, but useful for many who have to be in by 10.

 

[Starmill]

There aren't any northbound because it would cause an issue with long distance passengers not getting seats because everyone gets on together.

The 1620, 1643 and 1843 from London Euston carry Milton Keynes Central passengers. None have lot of long-distance passengers onboard...

The 1720 and 1820 call at Milton Keynes Central to pick up only, mainly for commercial reasons and Timetabling & Planning Rules compliance. They convey rather a large number of empty seats.

 

[Starmill]

The 1620, 1643 and 1843 from London Euston carry Milton Keynes Central passengers. None have lot of long-distance passengers onboard...

The 1720 and 1820 call at Milton Keynes Central to pick up only, mainly for commercial reasons and Timetabling & Planning Rules compliance. They convey rather a large number of empty seats.

Oh. And I forgot to add - those Avanti West Coast services in the evening peak are cheaper than the London Northwestern Railway ones.

 

[Starmill]

MK has already got reasonable separation and the mix of seevices stopping both there and at Stevenage can easily be fixed with TOC specific tickets.

"easily fixed" erm, the current market frequently produces price incentives to travel on the most heavily loaded trains. So I'm not sure why this is easy! Preston to Manchester for example is always cheaper for a flexible single, return or season ticket to travel on the TransPennine Express services, despite many being full and standing and coming from Scotland. A frequent Northern service runs. The stoppers are lightly loaded, but even the express trains are less crowded than TransPennine Express services. But it's usually cheaper to travel with TPE.

Wilmslow to Manchester is another example, Transport for Wales services are the most overcrowded on the route any many are diagrmmed mere two coaches. They're the cheapest option, though. Unlike TPE, TfW at least don't offer dedicated season tickets (unless anyone is aware of them starting to do so elsewhere?)

 

[35B]

No 125mph trains from Stevenage to London in the morning Peak and only very limited opportunities in the evening peak.

And as a Grantham commuter, what opportunities do exist are a complete pain when trying to find a seat for the longer journey.

 

[Starmill]

And as a Grantham commuter, what opportunities do exist are a complete pain when trying to find a seat for the longer journey.

Is this really true? The 1718, 1748 and 1818 are fast to Peterborough, and then Grantham, and the 1548 and 1848 are fast to Grantham. That's a pretty significant range of trains. Unless you're travelling daily on the 1633 specifically? If so, from the 1630 there is a 10 minute connection at Peterborough for Grantham.

 

[35B]

Is this really true? The 1718, 1748 and 1818 are fast to Peterborough, and then Grantham, and the 1548 and 1848 are fast to Grantham. That's a pretty significant range of trains. Unless you're travelling daily on the 1633 specifically? If so, from the 1630 there is a 10 minute connection at Peterborough for Grantham.

Oh to be out of work as early as the 1633! I forget precisely which LNER workings are Stevenage stoppers but the law of sod dictates that when I am cutting it fine, it’s always a Stevenage stopper that I come across.

 

[Hadders]

Oh to be out of work as early as the 1633! I forget precisely which LNER workings are Stevenage stoppers but the law of sod dictates that when I am cutting it fine, it’s always a Stevenage stopper that I come across.

1st world problem - catching a long distance train that calls at Stevenage

 

[paul1609]

Interestingly the last couple of trips Ive had up the Yorkshire Railway from Kent, Trainsplit has routed me HS1, then Thameslink to Peterborough, then a LNER service to Newark or Leeds both directions. I presume there must be better/ cheaper availability of advances to/ from Peterborough than from Kings Cross.

 

[Hadders]

Potentially it might be quicker as the minimum interchange time within St Pancras from HS1 to Thameslink is 15 minutes compared to St Pancras to Kings Cross being 31 minutes.

 

[paul1609]

Potentially it might be quicker as the minimum interchange time within St Pancras from HS1 to Thameslink is 15 minutes compared to St Pancras to Kings Cross being 31 minutes.

I think something has relatively recently changed in the algorithm (or possibly the Thameslink timetable). I'd never seen it before but now it comes up as an option all the time.

 

[PeterC]

That would require breaking up the current GWR franchise into what was IC mainline and something similar to the old Thames Trains followed by TOC specific tickets only to fix the 'Reading problem'. MK has already got reasonable separation and the mix of seevices stopping both there and at Stevenage can easily be fixed with TOC specific tickets. The changes to the overall WCML franchises when HS2 is open where all non-HS2 services might be billed as regional might become a problem though.

Not necessarily. If the rules were being changed to segment Inter City and Regional / Local fares then it would be perfectly possible, at the same time, to also change the rules to permit the same TOC to operate all classes of service and price them accordingly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not necessarily. If the rules were being changed to segment Inter City and Regional / Local fares then it would be perfectly possible, at the same time, to also change the rules to permit the same TOC to operate all classes of service and price them accordingly.

I think you're missing the point. It isn't about TOCs, it's that the UK doesn't have train categories in the same way. There are the nominally IC TOCs, but they provide the local service in many areas.

 

[PeterC]

I think you're missing the point. It isn't about TOCs, it's that the UK doesn't have train categories in the same way. There are the nominally IC TOCs, but they provide the local service in many areas.

I thought that the point was that the introduction of train categories was being suggested.

The issue about IC trains providing local services is a valid one but has SFA to do with the question that I was responding to.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I thought that the point was that the introduction of train categories was being suggested.

It was, with regard to ticketing and Railcards. However, my point was that it isn't workable to do it on that basis because IC type trains provide the local service in many places.

I wouldn't be opposed to train categories to denote on board service quality (how BR did it, basically) rather than pricing, but that's not much to do with this thread.