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27's in the Highlands

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73001

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I'd just like to thank all of the contributors to this thread. I love reading about peoples experiences and stories from the past and I have a soft spot for the type 2s and some ancestry in Oban so double the interest for me. Thanks for taking the time to share.
 
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Cheshire Scot

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I'd just like to thank all of the contributors to this thread. I love reading about peoples experiences and stories from the past and I have a soft spot for the type 2s and some ancestry in Oban so double the interest for me. Thanks for taking the time to share.
Your thanks are appreciated.

It has been fun recalling these times which almost seem like a different world when compared to these rural lines today.
 

RT4038

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You’re so right. What amazes me is how busy those Kyle trains could be back then, and how busy the stations were, with 5-6 packed Mk1s behind the 24 or 26 (usually including a BG full of mail and parcels). Seems difficult to imagine now, when all the stations are unstaffed and even in high summer a 2-car 158 is never full. I travel the Kyle line very often in summer, and in recent years have always had a bay of four to myself, always on the best side of the train for the views.

I‘m sure winter loadings were as poor back then as today, but passenger numbers in summer seemed far greater back then. This is despite the fact that Scottish tourism was experiencing a significant boom in the latter part of the 2010s.

Services are more frequent now though.
 

Inversnecky

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You’d be right- 27s were largely Eastfield-based and worked on the West Highland Lines from Glasgow to Oban, Fort William and Mallaig. It was 26s which were Inverness-based and worked on the Kyle and Far North routes out of Inverness.

From my memories of the trains on the Inverness to Aberdeen line, and looking around Inverness station in the early 1980s, I'd spot the odd 27, but it was predominantly 26s and 47s.
 

Taunton

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You wonder if a token exchanging ever resulted in someone pulled off the stand!
David L Smith, of course, in his books about the G&SWR, has the best stories. A relief signalman was sent to the Dumfries-Stranraer line, where for the first time he was exchanging tablets with non-stopping trains. Stood for his first such exchange at the edge of the station platform as it approached, his jacket was being held from behind by his wife, and her jacket in turn was being held by their child ... !
 

Inversnecky

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David L Smith, of course, in his books about the G&SWR, has the best stories. A relief signalman was sent to the Dumfries-Stranraer line, where for the first time he was exchanging tablets with non-stopping trains. Stood for his first such exchange at the edge of the station platform as it approached, his jacket was being held from behind by his wife, and her jacket in turn was being held by their child ... !
And not also the child being held by the dog, the tail of the dog by the cat, the tails of the cat by the mouse?

....and still they couldn't pull out the enormous turnip catch hold of the token!

This guy in one of the videos posted as a big frightening though....

Would put me right off my holiday!
 

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CW2

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Back in 1977 I spent a summer season working in the kitchens at Butlins in Ayr. I learned that the Fridays Only 1830 Blackpool - Stranraer and Saturdays Only Stranraer - Blackpool was booked for a class 40, so went down to Ayr station one Friday night to catch the train. (It wasn't a public stop at Ayr, but called there for a crew change). I got chatting to the crew on the platform, and discovered to my dismay that an unscheduled loco change was taking place outside Ayr depot as the Ayr driver didn't sign class 40s. The train duly turned up with a pair of 27s - and the crew invited me to joint them. Well it would be rude to refuse!

Approaching one of the intermediate passing loops the 27s were bouncing a bit, and the second man yelled from the doorway "We're only supposed to do 10 mph for token exchange!". "Aye, right you are, we ARE doing 10 mph" lied the driver, as he opened up the power handle at 40 mph. (The delay in changing locos meant we got further delayed crossing the Stranraer - Euston, so were running rather late, making the boat connection at Stranraer a bit dodgy). The run back north to Ayr was a bit more relaxed. I certainly wouldn't want to be involved in exchanging tokens by hand at 40mph in the pitch dark. Both secondman and signalman deserved my admiration.
 

MrEd

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Services are more frequent now though.
Yes- that is true. Monday-Saturday the 10.56 and 17.54 ex-Inverness exist as they always have done, while the 06.55 has been re-timed to a more useful 08.55 which offers a convenient connection with the sleeper from Euston as well as the first train of the day from Aberdeen. There is now all year round a 13.35 Inverness-Kyle which did not exist in BR days.

Similarly eastbound the 17.13 exists pretty much as it always did, providing the sleeper connection at Inverness, but the 07.00 to Inverness from BR days now leaves Kyle at 06.12, and the 11.10 is now a 12.08. There is also now a year-round 13.46 which did not exist in BR days.

Of course the post-privatisation era has seen year-round Sunday services, the 10.59 Inverness-Kyle and 15.12 return which are supplemented in high summer by the 10.10 Kyle to Inverness and 17.54 Inverness-Kyle. I think Sunday services began in the 80s but only in summer, is that right? The 15.12 eastbound Sunday service is perhaps the busiest service on the line year-round, but even then it’s easy to find a seat.
 

Cheshire Scot

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Wasn't the early one for the post?
In the seventies it changed from freight plus three or four mail and parcel vans to being a mixed with a passenger coach added - MFSO if I remember rightly, so it was useable as an early passenger train at a similar time to the early one of the three Far North Trains (which included 4 BGs in the formation).

Not sure how long that arrangement survived for.
 

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In the seventies it changed from freight plus three or four mail and parcel vans to being a mixed with a passenger coach added - MFSO if I remember rightly, so it was useable as an early passenger train at a similar time to the early one of the three Far North Trains (which included 4 BGs in the formation).

Not sure how long that arrangement survived for.
I think that it ran as a goods/parcels train as far as Dingwall, being the first Down of the day. It shunted/waited at Dingwall until the first Far North had passed and then headed off to Kyle: any passengers would have to leave Inverness on the Far North train and change at Dingwall. Except for the period when Stromeferry was in use for traffic to Howard Doris’ oil rig yard, goods traffic was fairly light.
 

david1212

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I too have enjoyed reading this thread.

Before I would not have thought Aberdeen - Inverness to be taxing on the locos ( posts 10, 16, 25 ) but thinking now not unlike Waterloo - Exeter particularly west of Salisbury with long single stretches and few passing loops so timekeeping critical.

I've travelled the Highland main line three return trips but all nominally overnight on motorail 1974, 1975 and 1979 or 1980.

I've only travelled on the West Highland twice back I think in 1987. One trip was Accochar - Oban and the other Arrochar - Fort Willam. The former was when the 104 ' Mexican Bean ' was supposed to be running from Crianlarich to Oban but on the day a 37 & coaches.

I've been to Mallaig, Kyle, Thurso and Wick but only by car.

After I've retired, a few years away and maybe extended by Covid if pension fund values don't recover, I plan to travel all of the main lines in Scotland again. For both WHL and far north by then if not replaced the 156's and 158's will be very tired. The 156's are all over 30 now and the 158's all will be soon.

While going OT several posts ( e.g. 49, 52 ) refer to a summer Saturday Queen Street - Oban DMU in the 1970's. Can anyone say what DMU class(es) were used as not least from the passenger perspective this doesn't seem suited to DMU's.
 

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While going OT several posts ( e.g. 49, 52 ) refer to a summer Saturday Queen Street - Oban DMU in the 1970's. Can anyone say what DMU class(es) were used as not least from the passenger perspective this doesn't seem suited to DMU's.
It was daily (excl Suns) in the summer from the mid sixties, not just Sats, and SX in the early sixties ('62 timetable) - and always the faster route Queen St via Ardlui even when the Glenogle route remained open and until the final year or two it was a Swindon Cross Country (is that cl120?) giving decent comfort and with the buffet in use, finally giving way to the refurbished Metro Cammell unit (cl101?) in it's white with blue stripe livery - a book shows this was running in '75.

DMUs also frequented the southern part of the route in the early sixties on 'The Six Lochs Tour' which ran out via Glenogle and back via Ardlui, 6 car formations were common with sometimes a relief train (perhaps the opposite circle) I believe. Not sure what class were on these - from the above you'll note I'm not big on classifications from that era.

EDIT: Mexican Bean (mentioned above) class 104 1985 Oban to Crianlarich shuttles (possibly later years?), I think it was two round trips but not every day, not the most comfortable but 'ok for the tourists'? . A 1960 photo shows a six car class 120 Swindon Cross Country (at least I did get that one right!) at Killin on the six Lochs - Loch Lubnaig, Loch Earn, Loch Tay, Loch Lomond, Loch Long, Gareloch
 
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david1212

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It was daily (excl Suns) in the summer from the mid sixties, not just Sats, and SX in the early sixties ('62 timetable) - and always the faster route Queen St via Ardlui even when the Glenogle route remained open and until the final year or two it was a Swindon Cross Country (is that cl120?) giving decent comfort and with the buffet in use, finally giving way to the refurbished Metro Cammell unit (cl101?) in it's white with blue stripe livery - a book shows this was running in '75.

DMUs also frequented the southern part of the route in the early sixties on 'The Six Lochs Tour' which ran out via Glenogle and back via Ardlui, 6 car formations were common with sometimes a relief train (perhaps the opposite circle) I believe. Not sure what class were on these - from the above you'll note I'm not big on classifications from that era.

EDIT: Mexican Bean (mentioned above) class 104 1985 Oban to Crianlarich shuttles (possibly later years?), I think it was two round trips but not every day, not the most comfortable but 'ok for the tourists'? . A 1960 photo shows a six car class 120 Swindon Cross Country (at least I did get that one right!) at Killin on the six Lochs - Loch Lubnaig, Loch Earn, Loch Tay, Loch Lomond, Loch Long, Gareloch

Thanks. I've just looked at https://www.railcar.co.uk/type/class-120 and particularly https://www.railcar.co.uk/type/class-120/operations-scotland

Other than the Intercity Class 123 & 124 then the 20x sets I've always thought of the first generation DMU's as all much the same from the passenger perspective beyond 2+2 or 2+3 seating where as these sets seem closer to a MK1 TSO. Even refurbished a MetCam 101 must have been more bus like so maybe why DMU's ceased to be used.

As I understood the idea of the Mexican Bean was to provide a link to Oban from some Glasgow - Fort William / Mallaig trains increasing the options for day trip tourists with minimal cost not least not needing a loco. I'd have to do some investigation to be 100% but any year other than 1987 does doesn't fit with my recollections.
 
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Cheshire Scot

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Thanks. I've just looked at https://www.railcar.co.uk/type/class-120 and particularly https://www.railcar.co.uk/type/class-120/operations-scotland

Other than the Intercity Class 123 & 124 then the 20x sets I've always thought of the first generation DMU's as all much the same from the passenger perspective beyond 2+2 or 2+3 seating where as these sets seem closer to a MK1 TSO. Even refurbished a MetCam 101 must have been more bus like so maybe why DMU's ceased to be used.

As I understood the idea of the Mexican Bean was to provide a link to Oban from some Glasgow - Fort William / Mallaig trains increasing the options for day trip tourists with minimal cost not least not needing a loco. I'd have to do some investigation to be 100% but any year other than 1987 does fit with my recollections.
The summer train was taken off in a timetable recast. My understanding is the Mexican Bean started in 1985, but I'm not sure how many summers it lasted.
 

hexagon789

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In the seventies it changed from freight plus three or four mail and parcel vans to being a mixed with a passenger coach added - MFSO if I remember rightly, so it was useable as an early passenger train at a similar time to the early one of the three Far North Trains (which included 4 BGs in the formation).

Not sure how long that arrangement survived for.
I seem to remember the common winter set was 3 coaches - two TSOs sandwiching a BG. I assumed the BG was placed amidships to facilitate offloading at the small stations on the line and I just presumed it would be the post and perhaps in earlier days certain supplies and items transported in.
 

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I seem to remember the common winter set was 3 coaches - two TSOs sandwiching a BG. I assumed the BG was placed amidships to facilitate offloading at the small stations on the line and I just presumed it would be the post and perhaps in earlier days certain supplies and items transported in.
Yes, I think there is ample photographic evidence of the standard winter sets of TSO BG TSO.

In the days when the mixed ran - or certainly the early era of the mixed, first class was still provided plus the timetable was unbalanced, three up passenger and a freight, two down passenger and the mixed some days/freight on other days and the balance for the stock was added to the evening train from Inverness except on the days when the mixed ran the CK was added to the mixed which (early seventies) still conveyed several parcels vans. The loco balance was, I think the mixed, but often not required if the up freight was not running, freight to Kyle by then being minimal.

From memory I think the vans included one each from Glasgow Salkeld St and from Perth, plus whatever Inverness added and traffic would include mail, parcels, newspapers and I always remember boxes of fresh bakery products from was it Burnetts(?), the then ,major bake in Inverness which could be seen unloaded from the trains at many stations on the north and Kyle lines.

I recall as stated by Gloster above the mixed was booked to precede the early Far North train then shunt at Dingwall to connect but on one occasion when I use it was standing on the Rose St curve when the North train departed and then followed it.


The history tab on this website shows mail/parcels being unloaded across the six foot at Strathcarron (note the point rodding 'trip hazard' down the middle), and I have seen a photo of a non passenger day of the freight/parcels sitting on the opposite 'bang road' platform to unload (an unsignalled move which obviously couldn't happen on the days passengers were conveyed).
The website is advertising Holiday Accommodation in the station buildings. A friend who used Strathcarron in his childhood in the cl37 era was horrified by this whereas I took the view at least the station building is being put to good use rather then falling into disrepair or worse.
 
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Gloster

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From what I have read, in the diagrams the early mixed/goods was double-headed in the Down direction and the second loco came back on a goods that left Kyle around 13.00. However, on some days the Down had only one loco and the Up goods was cancelled as there was not a great deal of outgoing traffic (and empties can wait). I think that what (very) little traffic there was for intermediate stations was often taken through to Kyle and set down on the return working.
 

Cheshire Scot

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From what I have read, in the diagrams the early mixed/goods was double-headed in the Down direction and the second loco came back on a goods that left Kyle around 13.00. However, on some days the Down had only one loco and the Up goods was cancelled as there was not a great deal of outgoing traffic (and empties can wait). I think that what (very) little traffic there was for intermediate stations was often taken through to Kyle and set down on the return working.
My thoughts exactly.

EDIT: The mixed only took a few minutes longer than the regular passenger trains between Dingwall and Kyle and that probably due to extended dwell time unloading mail parcels etc, so would not have time to detach any intermediate traffic as even when running as a freight getting the mail, papers etc through would be the priority. It might have been frustrating if a farmer at Garve was waiting a van of animal feed which he had potentially seen had pass through around seven thirty but did not return until well into the afternoon.

Based on the following however my guess would be there was no longer any freight to the intermediate stations (excluding the temporary revival at Strome Ferry with it's dedicated trains). By the mid seventies Crianlarich was the only intermediate station on the West Highland still handling freight traffic which, in addition to the Corpach Timber block train from the Lower Yard was at that time domestic coal , perhaps two or three wagons per week at the busiest times, and the once weekly NCL Sundries van from Sighthill which is itself another story.
Other en route locations handling freight were Private Sidings which were customer specific such as MOD Glen Douglas which had it's own trip, Connel for oil traffic traffic and various sidings in the Fort William area such as Corpach/Annat for the Paper Mill. There was stil freight to both Oban and Mallaig as well as the Fort William area.
At a later date timber loading started at various locations such as Arrochar and Taynuilt but around the time the Kyle mixed was introduced Crianlarich stood alone on the West Highland, with booked traffic calls in the Oban line goods.
 
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hexagon789

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Yes, I think there is ample photographic evidence of the standard winter sets of TSO BG TSO.

In the days when the mixed ran - or certainly the early era of the mixed, first class was still provided plus the timetable was unbalanced, three up passenger and a freight, two down passenger and the mixed some days/freight on other days and the balance for the stock was added to the evening train from Inverness except on the days when the mixed ran the CK was added to the mixed which (early seventies) still conveyed several parcels vans. The loco balance was, I think the mixed, but often not required if the up freight was not running, freight to Kyle by then being minimal.

From memory I think the vans included one each from Glasgow Salkeld St and from Perth, plus whatever Inverness added and traffic would include mail, parcels, newspapers and I always remember boxes of fresh bakery products from was it Burnetts(?), the then ,major bake in Inverness which could be seen unloaded from the trains at many stations on the north and Kyle lines.

I recall as stated by Gloster above the mixed was booked to precede the early Far North train then shunt at Dingwall to connect but on one occasion when I use it was standing on the Rose St curve when the North train departed and then followed it.


The history tab on this website shows mail/parcels being unloaded across the six foot at Strathcarron (note the point rodding 'trip hazard' down the middle), and I have seen a photo of a non passenger day of the freight/parcels sitting on the opposite 'bang road' platform to unload (an unsignalled move which obviously couldn't happen on the days passengers were conveyed).
The website is advertising Holiday Accommodation in the station buildings. A friend who used Strathcarron in his childhood in the cl37 era was horrified by this whereas I took the view at least the station building is being put to good use rather then falling into disrepair or worse.
I hadn't realised the passenger workings were unbalanced like that, think I presumed it was 3 each way regularly for some years before Sprinterisation. Interesting point about first class, presumably even the short winter sets had something like a CK until the line became second class only then
 

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Based on the following however my guess would be there was no longer any freight to the intermediate stations (excluding the temporary revival at Strome Ferry with it's dedicated trains).
Somewhere or other I have seen a couple of photo of Garve with a 16-ton coal wagon (MCV to Diagram 1/108): they were dated to sometime in the 1980s. Coal and animal feed were two general trafics that remained on rail to a surprisingly late date.
 

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I hadn't realised the passenger workings were unbalanced like that, think I presumed it was 3 each way regularly for some years before Sprinterisation. Interesting point about first class, presumably even the short winter sets had something like a CK until the line became second class only then
I think that in the Class 37 era, or certainly from about 1981 until the Sprinters came in 1989, there were three trains each way per day, with the morning mixed train replaced by an 06:32 (later 06:55) departure from Inverness which ran as a conventional passenger train. The coaching stock sets were load 3 (TSO, BG, TSO) in winter and load 4 in summer, with the 10:55 out of Inverness and 17:10 return from Kyle extended further with observation cars. I believe the sets became standard class only in 1981, and freight on the line ended soon after that.
 

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I think that in the Class 37 era, or certainly from about 1981 until the Sprinters came in 1989, there were three trains each way per day, with the morning mixed train replaced by an 06:32 (later 06:55) departure from Inverness which ran as a conventional passenger train. The coaching stock sets were load 3 (TSO, BG, TSO) in winter and load 4 in summer, with the 10:55 out of Inverness and 17:10 return from Kyle extended further with observation cars. I believe the sets became standard class only in 1981, and freight on the line ended soon after that.
I do have a few timetables of the era, but all passenger so they don't really show exactly what the services are in terms of 'mixed', conveying the post etc etc
 

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In one of the earlier videos, the man looking after the level crossing shows a flag. Why does he need to do this?

I thought it was blue, but presume it’s green, and just looks bluish because of the old film stock?
 

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delt1c

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I do have a few timetables of the era, but all passenger so they don't really show exactly what the services are in terms of 'mixed', conveying the post etc etc
How times have changed , I remember in the 70's on the far North line 6 passenger coach formations , hauled by a single 26 or 24, didnt half make some noise climbing northbound to Lairg summit. Standing in the 1st coach beside an open droplight it was pure music.
 

Taunton

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You’re so right. What amazes me is how busy those Kyle trains could be back then, and how busy the stations were, with 5-6 packed Mk1s behind the 24 or 26 (usually including a BG full of mail and parcels). Seems difficult to imagine now, when all the stations are unstaffed and even in high summer a 2-car 158 is never full. I travel the Kyle line very often in summer, and in recent years have always had a bay of four to myself, always on the best side of the train for the views.

I‘m sure winter loadings were as poor back then as today, but passenger numbers in summer seemed far greater back then. This is despite the fact that Scottish tourism was experiencing a significant boom in the latter part of the 2010s.
Winter loadings were actually much higher than nowadays. Before about 1975 the Stornoway ship, the mainstream service to the Outer Hebrides, used to run from Kyle of Lochalsh, and the principal reason for the line, and its retention, was to connect with this. It went over in the afternoon, and returned overnight, hence the longstanding very early departure from Kyle. You would apparently find many sleeping island folk in that first train. In 1975 a new harbour facility was built at Ullapool, which required service from Inverness by bus instead, and this traffic was lost to the train. A new car ferry was built, and the shorter crossing meant it could do two trips a day instead of one. The road journey from Inverness was not only a lengthy challenge, between two and three hours, the connecting bus was often oversubscribed and old double-deckers from the Inverness town services would be put on it, to huge complaints of course.
 

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Winter loadings were actually much higher than nowadays. Before about 1975 the Stornoway ship, the mainstream service to the Outer Hebrides, used to run from Kyle of Lochalsh, and the principal reason for the line, and its retention, was to connect with this. It went over in the afternoon, and returned overnight, hence the longstanding very early departure from Kyle. You would apparently find many sleeping island folk in that first train. In 1975 a new harbour facility was built at Ullapool, which required service from Inverness by bus instead, and this traffic was lost to the train. A new car ferry was built, and the shorter crossing meant it could do two trips a day instead of one. The road journey from Inverness was not only a lengthy challenge, between two and three hours, the connecting bus was often oversubscribed and old double-deckers from the Inverness town services would be put on it, to huge complaints of course.
The Stornoway ship continued to/from Mallaig, connecting into the morning train and out of the 06.00 from Queen St.

Depending on where in Scotland you were travelling to/from - or continuing across the border - might dictate which rail route was chosen.
In 1967 for instance Glasgow was reached at 15.45 via Kyle, but 14.15 via Mallaig.

Northbound, as noted it was 06.00 from Qn St via Mallaig - and around 19.30 from Kings Cross and 04.35 from Edinburgh, via Kyle it would be a similar time from Euston but either the overnight from Glasgow to Inverness or the 04.05 (or similar) from Glasgow Central (!) which connected with the 06.55 Perth to Inverness Mail which in turn connected with the train to Kyle to meet the ship for onward travel. Edinburgh did not have a Perth Mail connection so it would have been the overnight, a journey of around 20 hours Edinburgh to Stornoway including a wait of around 6 hours in Inverness.

Long waits in Inverness were par for the course if going further north/west, as the connections from the morning train from Glasgow/Edinburgh arriving 14.xx in Inverness were the evening (17.xx) trains to Kyle and the North.
 
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