3-Car Class 158 Engine Problems

[150sprinter]

I have just taken a journey from Leeds to New Pudsey on a Northern 158 with Center-Coach and there was a big problem...

I climbed aboard the front carriage in Leeds and the engines were shut down, a few minutes later the driver started them up and they sounded extremely different - the engines sounded as if they choked when they started. Anyway, I thought nothing of this and we soon departed. The engine fired up as normal but the train didn't move very quickly, the power went up a notch again, then full power. The train continued to be sluggish, and we then moved onto the line for New Pudsey. Something very unusual for this line, which I believe is a 60mph limit, was that we were only moving at around 10mph. The engine of the front carriage that I was in was thumping away at full power and the train just wouldn't accelerate. Eventually we arrived in to Bramley about 10 minutes late and the train stopped. Another 2 minutes and the train began to depart at full power, it just couldn't do it, and about four revs later, we were moving at about 15-20 mph on our way to New Pudsey.
When we arrived, I got off the train and went up front to have a look.
It fired up and began moving slowly, the front engine hammering away at notch 7, while the center-coach passed, the engine making an idle 'shut-down' sound as it departed. It was the same story with the rear coach, idle engine when both the centre and the rear engines should have been running.

And that was why the front car was struggling so much, pulling, on its own, another two units, both carrying engines and weighing in at 77 tonnes.

Anyone know why?

 

[CarterUSM]

I have just taken a journey from Leeds to New Pudsey on a Northern 158 with Center-Coach and there was a big problem...

I climbed aboard the front carriage in Leeds and the engines were shut down, a few minutes later the driver started them up and they sounded extremely different - the engines sounded as if they choked when they started. Anyway, I thought nothing of this and we soon departed. The engine fired up as normal but the train didn't move very quickly, the power went up a notch again, then full power. The train continued to be sluggish, and we then moved onto the line for New Pudsey. Something very unusual for this line, which I believe is a 60mph limit, was that we were only moving at around 10mph. The engine of the front carriage that I was in was thumping away at full power and the train just wouldn't accelerate. Eventually we arrived in to Bramley about 10 minutes late and the train stopped. Another 2 minutes and the train began to depart at full power, it just couldn't do it, and about four revs later, we were moving at about 15-20 mph on our way to New Pudsey.
When we arrived, I got off the train and went up front to have a look.
It fired up and began moving slowly, the front engine hammering away at notch 7, while the center-coach passed, the engine making an idle 'shut-down' sound as it departed. It was the same story with the rear coach, idle engine when both the centre and the rear engines should have been running.

And that was why the front car was struggling so much, pulling, on its own, another two units, both carrying engines and weighing in at 77 tonnes.

Anyone know why?

Out of water perhaps?

 

[150sprinter]

Possibly, but for for 2 of 3 engines just not to run is very weird.

 

[Schnellzug]

A problem with the multiple control, i'd say, if the other two engines were Running but not delivering power. Really should've failed it, i think.

 

[driver9000]

Sounds like both engines were idling because of high water temperature. The engines will revert to idle if it goes over a certain temperature (97c if I recall). Power comes back once the water has cooled down but I can't remember the setting.

The problem with idling engines is that they don't become obvious until your moving, the controller will try and arrange for a fitter to attend if possible en route or the terminus. Better to run with a delay than not at all is what some would say. More often than not the power will come back but if not then the fitter can set the fans to run continuously to try and cool the water quicker - in my experience setting the fans gives power back immediately but train crew can't do it.
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Out of water perhaps?

The engine will shut down if it runs out of water.

 

[rail-britain]

I am surprised the sole powering Class 158 car was only able to move the entire unit at only 20mph
However, as a three car unit that is a lot for the remaining effectively underpowered car to move

Equally, this problem of overheating seems never to have been resolved
At least it saves the engine from overheating and damaging the engine
However, the remaining working engine has to work at full load which can't be good for it (long session of high revs)

This same issue affected the Class 158 units when they were new in their first full summer operation in Scotland
This was not such an issue when they operated between Glasgow and Edinburgh as they were pretty much permanent pairs, so loss of one or two engines was acceptable
However, many units suffered the loss of an engine, typically the rear car would remain idling for an hour before coming back to life

Clearly some serious ventilation issues on these units, in terms of both internal passenger area cooling and external engine cooling
Unusual that the Class 156 did not suffer such issues, but then again it wasn't built by BREL and the Class 150 family did not suffer such issues (but these typically had short sharp bursts of power unlike the Class 158)

 

[TDK]

Out of water perhaps?

If it was out of water the engines would shut down.

There are many reasons for this, could be low hydrostatic oil or clogged radiators causing overheating but for them not to come back at all it was most likely something else.

 

[Kneedown]

It's not uncommon for Sprinters to have an engine revert to idle due to high water temperature, and this means the other engines have to work harder and so also are at risk of HWT.
A 158 is underpowered when all is normal and so when one engine goes it does make a big difference. On a 3car with 2 engines out i'm not in the least bit surprised it only got up to about 20mph.

 

[HSTEd]

Sounds like both engines were idling because of high water temperature. The engines will revert to idle if it goes over a certain temperature (97c if I recall). Power comes back once the water has cooled down but I can't remember the setting.

The problem with idling engines is that they don't become obvious until your moving, the controller will try and arrange for a fitter to attend if possible en route or the terminus. Better to run with a delay than not at all is what some would say. More often than not the power will come back but if not then the fitter can set the fans to run continuously to try and cool the water quicker - in my experience setting the fans gives power back immediately but train crew can't do it.

Surely it would be better to wire the fans to run continiously whenever the engines are started in that case? It would seem to avoid this issue or does that have its own set of drawbacks in terms of freezing the coolant in cold weather?

 

[rail-britain]

Surely it would be better to wire the fans to run continiously whenever the engines are started in that case?

The fans would pretty much run all the time, they would be activated once the coolant temperature is above a specific amount
The issue is the lack of ventilation as there is limited or no airflow under the vehicle

Next time you can see the underneath of a Class 158 take a look at the radiator matrix
Many are blocked with rubbish and especially leaves at this time of year
Unusually warm weather and leaves don't mix, and quite rare to have both!
This would suggest a possible maintenance oversight

To prevent excessive internal heat and damage to the engine, the thermostat does not permit power to be applied once the coolant temperature exceeds the threshold
This is a lesson learnt from the first generation DMU, where many were damaged from high revs at high temperature

However I do agree, once a train has reached a suitable destination the unit should be taken out of service

 

[driver9000]

Surely it would be better to wire the fans to run continiously whenever the engines are started in that case? It would seem to avoid this issue or does that have its own set of drawbacks in terms of freezing the coolant in cold weather?

The fans are driven by hydrostatic pump powered from the engine not electrically. The fans won't run until the oil for the pump has warmed up enough for the thermostat to allow the oil to run to the fan motor.

 

[Cruithne3753]

Commuting to work one morning back in the big freeze last year, I was on a 158 out of Bristol Temple Meads, sat down and the announcement was made that there was a problem with the cooling system, and it would be fixed in a couple of minutes. The announcement duly came that it had been sorted, and we were ready to go.

The train moved about a metre before the engines spluttered and died, which raised a laugh with everyone on board. Fortunately they were restarted OK and the journey continued.