3 minute connection at Chester

[Llandudno]

It appears that the last sensible timed train from Chester to Holyhead has been retimed slightly from May, to depart Chester at 2259. (There is another one at 0040 or thereabouts!). The Merseyrail train from Liverpool arrives at 2256. What are the chances of making this connection?

The Holyhead train usually departs from Platform 3, which involves using the footbridge to get from the Merseyrail platform.

Leaving Liverpool around 2230, this connection would be very useful for anyone attending theatres, arena, football etc in Liverpool.

Some people may risk the connection, and miss the Welsh train by literally a few seconds, wouldn’t fancy bring a member of staff at Chester station explaining you will have to wait another 90+ minutes for a train home!

 

[Spartacus]

At least there is another one, unlike on most lines at that time. Previously it would be your only sensible option, no things are going to be by no means worse.

 

[PHILIPE]

Difficult to answer in advance as it would depend on conditions at the time, Merseyrail could be early and the Coast late and on how fast you could run. You couldn't complain if you don't make it, as the minimum connection time for Chester is 5 minutes

 

[dk1]

It's all going to be down to luck. It will only take a slight delay to the Merseyrail service. Control will be far from pleased if Chester hold it for an illegal connection of less than +5.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

I was at Chester last Saturday on the 20h32 departure for Holyhead. Even though it arrived (from Cardiff) two minutes early it left 1 minute late, there were plenty of passengers who ran across the platform from the late running Merseyrail train which arrived, on this occasion, 5 minutes down at 20h31. Whether the Arriva service was held for a minute or whether it was the sheer volume of passengers causing the slight delay...I can't say. It was a simple cross platform connection (from 5 to 4).

It's all going to be down to luck. It will only take a slight delay to the Merseyrail service. Control will be far from pleased if Chester hold it for an illegal connection of less than +5.

What is an illegal connection?

 

[PHILIPE]

I was at Chester last Saturday on the 20h32 departure for Holyhead. Even though it arrived (from Cardiff) two minutes early it left 1 minute late, there were plenty of passengers who ran across the platform from the late running Merseyrail train which arrived, on this occasion, 5 minutes down at 20h31. Whether the Arriva service was held for a minute or whether it was the sheer volume of passengers causing the slight delay...I can't say. It was a simple cross platform connection (from 5 to 4).



What is an illegal connection?

Every station on the Network has a minimum connection time based on the layout and access to platforms at the station. It would be illegal if a train was held specially to make a connection in under this time allowance.

 

[dk1]

What is an illegal connection?

Station staff holding a service for an unofficial connection such as this one less than 5mins at Chester. It was at one time a regular problem at Ely where staff took it upon themselves to hold trains without permission. It saves them grief from the public often means well but that's not how the powers that be see it. No doubt they will monitor the 22:59 departure & if a pattern of delay minutes start to appear then a memo to NOT HOLD this service will be communicated. On the other hand it may get amended before or a mod may come out for it to depart at 23:01. Depends whether the connection is very well used or not or what impact it has on the 22:59 further into N.Wales.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The Cardiff-Holyhead train reaches Chester at 2235 and will wait for Crewe (2248) and Manchester (2250) connections before heading west at 2259 (from P2).
It's probably not going to wait for a Merseyrail arrival at 2256 on P7, if the other connections have been made.
There's always the Merseyrail service 30 minutes earlier, or up to the 2345 from Liverpool Central (14 minute connection at Chester into the 0040).
My experience at Chester is that AW/VT pay no attention whatever to ME connections, nor vice versa.
Maybe we'll have different options when Liverpool-Chester via Runcorn comes in, run by W&B.

 

[Philip]

There's often a unit swap on the 22:59 isn't there? Does this often cause the train to depart late from Chester?

 

[najaB]

Every station on the Network has a minimum connection time based on the layout and access to platforms at the station. It would be illegal if a train was held specially to make a connection in under this time allowance.

Probably unnecessary, but I just want to add that 'illegal' isn't being used to mean 'unlawful' in this context. Just that the connection is too short to be valid.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

Probably unnecessary, but I just want to add that 'illegal' isn't being used to mean 'unlawful' in this context. Just that the connection is too short to be valid.

Well, I did have a vision of the BTP hoofing it over the bridge to arrest the Train Staff and Dispatcher, so thanks for that clarification!

 

[dk1]

Well, I did have a vision of the BTP hoofing it over the bridge to arrest the Train Staff and Dispatcher, so thanks for that clarification!

It's a word often used in railway terminology. We refer to 'illegal diagrams' for traincrew if say the PNB allowance/timing isn't adhered to or perhaps it goes over the maximum 10hrs permitted even if only by 1 minute.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

It's a word often used in railway terminology. We refer to 'illegal diagrams' for traincrew if say the PNB allowance/timing isn't adhered to or perhaps it goes over the maximum 10hrs permitted even if only by 1 minute.

Interesting....thanks!

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

It might be better in such situations to use the word invalid rather than illegal.

 

[LowLevel]

Station staff holding a service for an unofficial connection such as this one less than 5mins at Chester. It was at one time a regular problem at Ely where staff took it upon themselves to hold trains without permission. It saves them grief from the public often means well but that's not how the powers that be see it. No doubt they will monitor the 22:59 departure & if a pattern of delay minutes start to appear then a memo to NOT HOLD this service will be communicated. On the other hand it may get amended before or a mod may come out for it to depart at 23:01. Depends whether the connection is very well used or not or what impact it has on the 22:59 further into N.Wales.

Grantham staff used to get on board the (self dispatch and have been for decades) East Midlands Skegness services to attempt to prevent them leaving before late running mainline services. It didn't take many of them ending up at places like cold locked up Sleaford to get the message to pack it in.

Since December's rule book amendments though it's indisputably not permitted to depart with people running at the train who may reach it before it pulls away so I generally wait for any tight connections on my own authority - it saves the hassle of pulling the cord during dispatch and control never question it if it's vaguely reasonable.

 

[dk1]

Interesting....thanks!

Most welcome mate.

 

[IainG81]

Can't believe that 3 minutes is actually a connection they think is appropriate. Even on time you will be rushed.

 

[iknowyeah]

Can't believe that 3 minutes is actually a connection they think is appropriate. Even on time you will be rushed.

It's not...

 

[berneyarms]

Can't believe that 3 minutes is actually a connection they think is appropriate. Even on time you will be rushed.

The OP was asking was it a valid connection, no one else!
It isn't as it is less than the 5 minute minimum connection time at Chester.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Which will be why the departure time has been brought forward. BR used to issue booklets to staff detailing how long trains could be held to ensure passengers caught their connection. Now trains are deliberately timed so passengers can’t catch a connection and have long waits, presumably for the sole reason of not having to pay compensation to the small number who claim when the incoming train is late and they miss it, and improved PPM figures. Certainly not for customer service reasons anyway.

 

[Muzer]

In practice, the Merseyrail service often runs early, and I find that while it usually ends up a couple of minutes late by Bache (the last station before Chester), there's enough buffer time that this usually means it arrives a couple of minutes early at Chester. Be at the front of the train just in case, so you can have a quick dash over the footbridge at Chester if necessary. IMHO you'll probably make this connection in the majority of cases.

 

[xtradj]

If you sat at the front of the Liverpool train you could easily make it in three minutes as it’s just simply over the bridge at a time that is likely to be a deserted station. However like most say it depends on whether the Merseyrail train is delayed, which is very well may be if packed full of football fans getting on in Liverpool.

Also someone older with lack of mobility wouldn’t make it as you’d probably want to run slightly just to be sure!

What is the reason for the re timing do we know? I doubt it is to help connect from Merseyrail as they’d have given it longer than three minutes?

I would imagine in some cases the Holyhead train may wait a few minutes if the Merseyrail train is delayed?

 

[dk1]

If you sat at the front of the Liverpool train you could easily make it in three minutes as it’s just simply over the bridge at a time that is likely to be a deserted station. However like most say it depends on whether the Merseyrail train is delayed, which is very well may be if packed full of football fans getting on in Liverpool.

Also someone older with lack of mobility wouldn’t make it as you’d probably want to run slightly just to be sure!

What is the reason for the re timing do we know? I doubt it is to help connect from Merseyrail as they’d have given it longer than three minutes?

I would imagine in some cases the Holyhead train may wait a few minutes if the Merseyrail train is delayed?

It avoids the problem & risk in the first place. A tactical move by ATW?

 

[kieron]

What is the reason for the re timing do we know? I doubt it is to help connect from Merseyrail as they’d have given it longer than three minutes?

Just from looking at the timetable, it looks as though a 3 minute pathing allowance has been added as it gets into Chester because it's booked into platform 2 by default. The train before it (a Chester-Wolverhampton one) has been moved 4 minutes later, so this must be the chosen solution to keep the trains apart.

As it gets to Chester later, so it leaves later. It stays there for long enough for the staff on board to have a break.

 

[Statto]

I wouldn't risk it as the Merseyrail service can quite often be running a couple of minutes late sometimes more into Chester thus missing the 22.59, as Merseyrail services have tight turnaround times themselves at Chester.

 

[Mathew S]

Now trains are deliberately timed so passengers can’t catch a connection and have long waits

I'm not sure if you meant that to come across the way it did, but I sincerely doubt that any TOC deliberately plans to make customers have long waits. I'm sure there are occasions where connections can't be made to work, for a whole myriad of reasons, but that's not the same as deliberately forcing customers to wait thus meaning fewer travel by rail and costing the TOC revenue.

 

[Statto]

Which will be why the departure time has been brought forward. BR used to issue booklets to staff detailing how long trains could be held to ensure passengers caught their connection. Now trains are deliberately timed so passengers can’t catch a connection and have long waits, presumably for the sole reason of not having to pay compensation to the small number who claim when the incoming train is late and they miss it, and improved PPM figures. Certainly not for customer service reasons anyway.

Ridiculous post, as the above post TOCs don't deliberately time tight connections so passengers can't catch connections thus claim comp, more likely due to paths being available also when they expect trains to be busy. As it happens trains to Chester Merseyrail are every 30 minutes in the evening, leaving Liverpool around 21.40 will enable the passenger to catch the 22.59 from Chester, around 23.40 from Liverpool will get the 00.40 at Chester.

 

[Flying Snail]

Ridiculous post, as the above post TOCs don't deliberately time tight connections so passengers can't catch connections thus claim comp, more likely due to paths being available also when they expect trains to be busy. As it happens trains to Chester Merseyrail are every 30 minutes in the evening, leaving Liverpool around 21.40 will enable the passenger to catch the 22.59 from Chester, around 23.40 from Liverpool will get the 00.40 at Chester.

It is not a ridiculous accusation, it may not be the reason in this case but altering times to break connections is something that is done. In fact the same TOC has done exactly that with the following 00.xx Chester-Holyhead in order to break the connection with the 02.30/02.40 ferries from Holyhead, the ferry connection that ironically was the reason that unusually late service exists at all.

At first they extended the timetabled arrival time by around 20 mns with over 50 mns given for the normally 30 min Bangor-Holyhead section, more recently it has been timed later throughout with the extra 20mns for the last segment removed as it is no longer needed to kill the connection.

 

[6Gman]

The OP was asking was it a valid connection, no one else!
It isn't as it is less than the 5 minute minimum connection time at Chester.

I would have to say that even 5 seems tight to me at Chester. It can take nearly that to get to the footbridge off a busy service, never mind to a distant platform e.g. 1 to 7 or 6 to 2. Not helped by the fact that every change made to Chester General over the past 20 years seems to have been designed to make it increasingly cramped, confusing and inconvenient.

Only station I know where the bookmaker's is more convenient than the booking office!