3-point journey and breaks of journey

[swaldman]

Hi all,
I'm asking on behalf of a friend who is planning a multiple-point trip and trying to work out the best tickets to buy, taking account of permitted breaks of journey etc.

They want to travel,

1. Glasgow to Oxford on 14th July
2. Oxford to London on 15th July - however, they are prepared to do this leg by coach instead if easier, which costs ~£20
3. London to Glasgow on 20th July with a few hours stop-off at York (so via ECML).

They will be traveling with a bike with loaded panniers, which I don't think should present booking difficulties given how empty trains are at the moment, but means that they want to avoid changes as much as possible because of the need to remove panniers to use many train bike racks.
(Yes, the Oxford Tube coach service allows bikes)

Our initial thought was to get an open return Glasgow-London, but we then realised that (if I understand correctly) you can't break your journey overnight? Another way would be to get that Glasgow-London return, use it as far as the last "reasonable route" point and then have another ticket from there to Oxford, ignoring the last part of the Glagow->London ticket. I imagine this is probably not allowed, but also unlikely to be noticed... Doing it all by Advances means two tickets for the return to allow the stop in York, since (again, if I understand right) you can't break journey with an Advance.

Any advice appreciated

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are Advances available at an acceptable time? That will most likely be the cheapest way even with the split at York.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Unfortunately the railway rarely makes triangular journeys and/or those involving breaks of journeys easy or value for money! It doesn't fit into their model of point to point travel.

Our initial thought was to get an open return Glasgow-London, but we then realised that (if I understand correctly) you can't break your journey overnight?

You can break your journey overnight on any ticket that is valid for multiple days, unless the ticket specifically forbids break of journey.

Off-Peak Returns are valid for 2 days on the outward portion (technically speaking until 4:29am on the third day), and so in theory this shouldn't present an issue.

That said, the right to use an Off-Peak Return on the second/third day of validity is technically only where you are "unable to complete your journey", however you interpret that - see recent threads on the topic. But I don't think it at all unreasonable to break your journey at Oxford in this case.

On a journey as long as Glasgow to London I'd like to think the likelihood of having difficulties in exercising this right is rather lower than it would be for a shorter trip, though sadly no-one can guarantee it won't happen.

There is also a further issue inasmuch as the Glasgow to London Off-Peak Return has restriction code 5F. This forbids break of journey on the outward portion of that ticket, so all of the above would then be irrelevant anyway!

Your saving grace is that a Super Off-Peak Return from somewhere like Falkirk to London is also valid via all the same routes as Glasgow to London (including via Oxford), costs the same price (£151.50), and does permit break of journey. So I would just buy that instead.

To preclude any issues I would buy that ticket online, getting an itinerary that shows validity down to Oxford (likely changing at "Glasgow" and Birmingham), with an overnight break of journey until the following day. A website like TrainSplit ought to accommodate that, by entering "must change" at Oxford, with an additional change time of say 99 minutes, in the advanced options.

Another way would be to get that Glasgow-London return, use it as far as the last "reasonable route" point and then have another ticket from there to Oxford, ignoring the last part of the Glagow->London ticket.

Glasgow-London is valid via Oxford, albeit some uninformed members of staff may try and claim it's not valid. Luckily they tend to be in the minority. The bigger issue, I'd have thought, would be as above to do with the use on the second day of validity.

Doing it all by Advances means two tickets for the return to allow the stop in York, since (again, if I understand right) you can't break journey with an Advance.

That's a possibility, albeit if the break of journey doesn't need to be too long then you may be able to persuade websites like TrainSplit to sell you a ticket involving a forced change at York with 99 minutes' additional change time. It may be cheaper to split anyway at York, and TrainSplit will show you all the options.

 

[swaldman]

Thanks - I'll pass all that on.
I think the verdict may be coming around to "just hire a car"

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Thanks - I'll pass all that on.
I think the verdict may be coming around to "just hire a car"

Yep, that's basically what the railway wants you to do at the moment!

 

[swaldman]

Yep, that's basically what the railway wants you to do at the moment!

Yeah - no direct trains glasgow to birmingham at present, so glasgow to oxford is minimum two changes :-/

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Yeah - no direct trains glasgow to birmingham at present, so glasgow to oxford is minimum two changes :-/

There is still one direct CrossCountry service Glasgow-Birmingham per day currently (07:48) albeit, being as it goes via Edinburgh and York, it takes rather longer than the normal trains via Preston! You could change once at Birmingham that way.

There is also currently one direct Glasgow-Manchester service, which would be a one change option. However, let's just say the 04:22 departure time would be more suited to some than others!

As a final, slightly esoteric option, your friend could take the Glasgow-London direct service, cycle from Euston to Marylebone/Paddington, and then take the train to Oxford.

 

[kieron]

Thanks - I'll pass all that on.
I think the verdict may be coming around to "just hire a car"

If using the train, your friend should reserve a cycle space for each leg where reservations are available. They shouldn't be necessary, but there's no reason not to have them. If your frend has a reservation for the train he or she intends to use, and shows it to staff along with the ticket, there shouldn't be any problem.

If your friend is concerned about using an off peak return after the date on the ticket, though, then one other option is a Glasgow-Oxford ticket with a route of "+any permitted". It's more expensive (£179.30 for a return), but you can easily get an itinerary for it via London and York online by searching for journeys via Stevenage.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If using the train, your friend should reserve a cycle space for each leg where reservations are available. They shouldn't be necessary

They ARE necessary on some TOCs, primarily some of the InterCity ones.

On XC optional but recommended
On Avanti compulsory (and this is enforced, they won't unlock the bike area for you unless you show one)
On GWR compulsory
On LNER compulsory

Seat reservations are also compulsory on most IC type trains at the moment though this may change.

 

[swaldman]

If using the train, your friend should reserve a cycle space for each leg where reservations are available. They shouldn't be necessary, but there's no reason not to have them. If your frend has a reservation for the train he or she intends to use, and shows it to staff along with the ticket, there shouldn't be any problem.

If your friend is concerned about using an off peak return after the date on the ticket, though, then one other option is a Glasgow-Oxford ticket with a route of "+any permitted". It's more expensive (£179.30 for a return), but you can easily get an itinerary for it via London and York online by searching for journeys via Stevenage.

Really? There are "reasonable routes" from Oxford to Glasgow via London and York? That seems.... generous.
(and also, can you break journey on the return trip for 4 days? That would be needed in London if they were doing it that way)

 

[alistairlees]

Really? There are "reasonable routes" from Oxford to Glasgow via London and York? That seems.... generous.
(and also, can you break journey on the return trip for 4 days? That would be needed in London if they were doing it that way)

On the return trip you can break for a total of up to one calendar month. You can do this in one location, or split it amongst many.

There is a lot of flexibility on tickets that are Anytime Return and Off-Peak Return.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Really? There are "reasonable routes" from Oxford to Glasgow via London and York? That seems.... generous.

It doesn't matter if it's reasonable, it simply matters if it's Permitted. Travelling from a station in the former NSE area to a long-distance destination via London is very common.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Really? There are "reasonable routes" from Oxford to Glasgow via London and York? That seems.... generous.
(and also, can you break journey on the return trip for 4 days? That would be needed in London if they were doing it that way)

Yes - it's permitted to go via London when travelling from Oxford to Glasgow on an Any Permitted ticket (the ✠ Maltese cross symbol on the ticket shows this, as well as the fact that you can use the Underground for free). And going from London to Glasgow is permitted via York, indeed there is usually one LNER train per day each way that does just this (it's an extension of an ECML Edinburgh service).

The effect of this system of calculating valid routes can sometimes be "surprisingly generous" as you term it, but when you think about it, it's not totally unreasonable to go via London when travelling from Glasgow to Oxford - since the service to Birmingham is only bi-hourly, so avoiding London can be slow at times, especially as the service to London is non-stop from Warrington onwards. It would then be illogical to allow travel from Glasgow to London, but only via one of the permissible Glasgow-London routes.

And yes, there are no restrictions on where, how often or for how long you can break your journey on the return portion of a period return. The return portion is valid for return any day within a calendar month.

It doesn't matter if it's reasonable, it simply matters if it's Permitted. Travelling from a station in the former NSE area to a long-distance destination via London is very common.

Well, in practical terms, it simply matters whether it's reasonable, because anything permitted but unreasonable is likely to be challenged. Most staff will never have heard of the Routeing Guide, let alone know what routes it permits. But you are correct, travel via London for former NSE station is often permitted and indeed fastest, even where it involves a substantial double back, since long distance services usually skip (NSE) stations nearer to London.

 

[yorkie]

It would be easier to do this if you were breaking your return journey, rather than your outward journey.

And yes anything reasonable (in the view of the person checking!) is not going to be questioned, but what matters is indeed what is permitted. Evidence of validity can be obtained in the form of a travel itinerary and/or reservations, as appropriate.

I agree with others that the rail industry does not value your custom, but the vast majority of long distance trains are almost empty at the moment, so travelling is a generally a pleasurable experience right now (providing you can put up with masks, if you are not covered by an exemption, but let's not discuss that here!)

Catering is starting to return to long distance trains, too.

 

[swaldman]

Interesting - thank you, I'll pass along that possibility. Do staff tend to be sufficiently familiar with the rules that breaking journey for a few days is allowed in practice as well as theory?

 

[yorkie]

Interesting - thank you, I'll pass along that possibility. Do staff tend to be sufficiently familiar with the rules that breaking journey for a few days is allowed in practice as well as theory?

Would they value a flexible ticket?

Probably at least 99% of staff on trains would be aware of this, yes. Less so in the case of gateline staff. It's absolutely clear in the T&Cs though, so anyone unsure could look it up.

Thinking about it, other than price, it doesn't matter which way round the journey is made. If they visit Oxford first, the ticket needs to be to Oxford but the return portion can be via London (as described above) but if they visit London first, this may be cheaper, as the ticket would be to London, with the return portion being broken in Oxford.

This is possible because Glasgow to Oxford is valid via London, and Glasgow to London is valid via Oxford.

That said, depending on the order, and how much flexibility they want, it may be cheaper to obtain an excess fare to cover the return portion e.g. it may be best to buy a Glasgow to Oxford ticket routed via Preston/Banbury, and excess the return portion to +Any Permitted, which costs half the difference between fares.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On the return portion? Probably at least 99% of staff on trains would do, yes. Less so in the case of gateline staff.

The myth you do sometimes seem to get is that you're only allowed to break for one night, it isn't true and I haven't encountered it myself. You can break your journey on the return half of very nearly[1] any walk-up ticket as many times as you wish for as long as you wish provided the ticket's end date has not passed.

[1] One exception: Code 8A Off Peaks bar break of journey on the return half. I am however mentioning that for completeness only, as it is not relevant to your specific journey.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Interesting - thank you, I'll pass along that possibility. Do staff tend to be sufficiently familiar with the rules that breaking journey for a few days is allowed in practice as well as theory?

On the return portion, almost certainly. On the outward, as stated, less likely to be a problem for long journeys like Glasgow-London but it can't be guaranteed. Get an itinerary if you can, it will reduce the likelihood of issues.

 

[kieron]

They ARE necessary on some TOCs, primarily some of the InterCity ones.

Sorry about that. I didn't have to find the guard the last time I used an Avanti train with a bike, but, now I think about it, it may have still been Virgin then.

If reservations are compulsory on most or all of the legs, I'd definitely consider buying tickets at a ticket office or through telesales, so I could just ask for the trains I intended to use when I book it instead of having to mess around with trying to persuade a web site not to give me the trains it thinks I should use.