30 Mar 23.34 Liverpool to Crewe

[frodshamfella]

Travelling home to Acton Bridge last night after seeing a show, found this train ( the last) was cancelled. There was no apparent information as to what passengers should do, so I went to the ticket office and was told, a coach had been put on. In the end two coaches left soon after the scheduled train departure time, but of course the journey took much longer. I just wondered if there was any particular reason for this, if anyone knew ?

 

[bb21]

Driver shortage.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Travelling home to Acton Bridge last night after seeing a show, found this train ( the last) was cancelled. There was no apparent information as to what passengers should do, so I went to the ticket office and was told, a coach had been put on. In the end two coaches left soon after the scheduled train departure time, but of course the journey took much longer. I just wondered if there was any particular reason for this, if anyone knew ?

RTT shows your train (and the incoming 2136 Birmingham-Liverpool which forms it) was cancelled "due to an issue with the train crew".
So LM had a couple of hours to sort out buses from Liverpool.
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P46416/2017/03/30/advanced

PS
Looking further back on RTT, the 1736 Birmingham-Liverpool was cancelled at Crewe at 1832, and the whole diagram after that (2 round trips CRE-LIV-BHM-LIV-CRE) was cancelled.
Doesn't say a lot for LM's service recovery plans.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Doesn't say a lot for LM's service recovery plans.

London Midland have had driver shortages for at least the last 18 months. I'm sure GoVia really care, just look at their industrial relations at Thamesl...oh.

 

[bb21]

Doesn't say a lot for LM's service recovery plans.

No idea what you mean there.

No driver means no driver. What else can you do? If you borrow a driver from elsewhere then you have to cancel something else instead.

 

[4973]

RTT shows your train (and the incoming 2136 Birmingham-Liverpool which forms it) was cancelled "due to an issue with the train crew".
So LM had a couple of hours to sort out buses from Liverpool.
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P46416/2017/03/30/advanced

PS
Looking further back on RTT, the 1736 Birmingham-Liverpool was cancelled at Crewe at 1832, and the whole diagram after that (2 round trips CRE-LIV-BHM-LIV-CRE) was cancelled.
Doesn't say a lot for LM's service recovery plans.

I was at Stafford yesterday afternoon and as I left at 18:55 there was an announcement about trespass causing delay. Didn't notice anything on the Tamworth route so could well have been on Stafford-Wolverhampton route.

 

[frodshamfella]

Well at least a coach was provided otherwise it would have been a bit of a nightmare.

 

[ValleyLines142]

I was at Stafford yesterday afternoon and as I left at 18:55 there was an announcement about trespass causing delay. Didn't notice anything on the Tamworth route so could well have been on Stafford-Wolverhampton route.

Trespassing issues today also near Birmingham Intl. 221116+221102 on 1643 Euston to Edinburgh delayed.

Liverpool to Birmingham services also not keeping well today. A very well loaded 350240 took the slightly delayed 1801 out of New Street almost full and standing due to a delay on incoming journey.

 

[6Gman]

Trespassing issues today also near Birmingham Intl. 221116+221102 on 1643 Euston to Edinburgh delayed.

Liverpool to Birmingham services also not keeping well today. A very well loaded 350240 took the slightly delayed 1801 out of New Street almost full and standing due to a delay on incoming journey.

1736 and 1801 are usually F&S from New Street. Was on the 1736 yesterday (terminating Crewe) - got a seat from Coseley. Last time I got the 1801 got a seat from Smethwick GB!

 

[miami]

No idea what you mean there.

No driver means no driver. What else can you do? If you borrow a driver from elsewhere then you have to cancel something else instead.

Employ more drivers. Invest in automation so that these things don't happen.

 

[bb21]

Employ more drivers. Invest in automation so that these things don't happen.

Where do you end? However many you employ there will always be occasions when you have a lack of resources. Overstaffing also means increased costs/higher subsidy/lower premium payments/tax payers losing out.

Simply employing more people is not always the answer.

Automation on the mainline is a long way off yet.

I also don't understand the relevance of your point. I was responding to the claim that service recovery in this incident seemed to be poor. None of what you suggested would have improved service recovery during a driver shortage.

 

[LAX54]

Employ more drivers. Invest in automation so that these things don't happen.

Which takes you back to, the fact to have drivers sitting around 'just in case' will end with higher fares to pay for it. which travellers will say is not acceptable !

I do not think there is any service industry that can have cover for all eventualities

 

[HLE]

Employ more drivers. Invest in automation so that these things don't happen.

First point yes, second point - where would you employ the thousands of drivers you've just got rid of? Because what we need is another 20,000 people out of work....

A question that all those that push for automation of the role seem unable to answer.

 

[miami]

Which takes you back to, the fact to have drivers sitting around 'just in case' will end with higher fares to pay for it. which travellers will say is not acceptable !

I do not think there is any service industry that can have cover for all eventualities

Airline industry has spare crews. Perhaps the costs of not running the train aren't high enough?

 

[pemma]

Well at least a coach was provided otherwise it would have been a bit of a nightmare.

A TOC has to get you home or put you up in a hotel if they cancel the last train under EU law. So for a short journey if they can't get replacement buses/coaches they'll probably (reluctantly) put you in taxis.

 

[BestWestern]

Which takes you back to, the fact to have drivers sitting around 'just in case' will end with higher fares to pay for it. which travellers will say is not acceptable !

I do not think there is any service industry that can have cover for all eventualities

In fairness, the odd occasional uncovered turn is very different to a 'Driver shortage'. The word 'shortage' would imply that the required number are not employed.

 

[pemma]

In fairness, the odd occasional uncovered turn is very different to a 'Driver shortage'. The word 'shortage' would imply that the required number are not employed.

So a TOC can have too few drivers to work all the scheduled services but can claim they are not short of drivers. :roll:

A few drivers all having the flu at the same time could lead to a temporary shortage of drivers, while a number of drivers all retiring and not being replaced immediately could lead to a more long term shortage.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Airline industry has spare crews. Perhaps the costs of not running the train aren't high enough?

I know incidents happen, illness etc.
What I don't get is the shrug of the shoulders from some, which is rather typical of the rail industry.
LM will get penalised for a string of cancellations, it's up to them to resource the service adequately to avoid it.

I've had airline cancellations on me too, on fairly specious grounds ("crew out of hours" etc).

 

[The Planner]

They will still look at it from a business perspective though, if the cost of cancelling and penalties are less than the ongoing cost of having spare drivers what do you think they will do?

 

[BestWestern]

So a TOC can have too few drivers to work all the scheduled services but can claim they are not short of drivers. :roll:

A few drivers all having the flu at the same time could lead to a temporary shortage of drivers, while a number of drivers all retiring and not being replaced immediately could lead to a more long term shortage.

Indeed! A bout of illness would be, largely, outside of the TOC's control, but such things in sufficient degrees to cause major problems are very rare. Failing to fill vacancies in agreed establishment numbers is something very different, and could be described as negligence on the part of the employer.

 

[bb21]

In fairness, the odd occasional uncovered turn is very different to a 'Driver shortage'. The word 'shortage' would imply that the required number are not employed.

I only quoted "driver shortage" as delay attribution goes. Whether it is temporary or long-term, no idea.

I suspect neither do most people on here.

 

[Mag_seven]

I only quoted "driver shortage" as delay attribution goes. Whether it is temporary or long-term, no idea.

I suspect neither do most people on here.

Seems to be a long term issue given the frequent cancellations due to this reason. Will DfT take account of this if this outfit re-bids for the franchise when its up for renewal - I hope so.

 

[bb21]

Airline industry has spare crews. Perhaps the costs of not running the train aren't high enough?

I can almost certainly assure you that the cost of cancellations makes it unworthy of anyone to not employ sufficient drivers to cover all diagrams plus suitable spares, the latter to varying degrees, even more so should current proposed changes for CP6 come into force.

 

[bb21]

Seems to be a long term issue given the frequent cancellations due to this reason. Will DfT take account of this if this outfit re-bids for the franchise when its up for renewal - I hope so.

DfT will want to see improvements should that be the case.

Repeated cancellations do not necessarily indicate a systematic shortage. Many random factors can occur on a regular basis, eg. driver sickness, driver error, high staff turnover, rostering error, diagramming issues, etc.

 

[pemma]

Indeed! A bout of illness would be, largely, outside of the TOC's control, but such things in sufficient degrees to cause major problems are very rare. Failing to fill vacancies in agreed establishment numbers is something very different, and could be described as negligence on the part of the employer.

Really an employer should have sufficient employees to do all the work normally needed without requiring any overtime to be worked. If they rely on people working overtime to cover some shifts then it's going to lead to problems when a problem outside their control occurs.

Out of interest does anyone know what a TOC usually does if someone is going to be away for a few months but will return to work e.g. if they have an operation or if they are on maternity leave? Obviously getting a temporary train driver is not as practical as getting a temporary receptionist.

 

[CC 72100]

In fairness, the odd occasional uncovered turn is very different to a 'Driver shortage'. The word 'shortage' would imply that the required number are not employed.

Although 'shortage' when given publicly as a reason doesn't differentiate.

When it comes to situation -> public stated reason:

Driver taken off following an incident earlier leading to uncovered turn = Driver shortage
Random uncovered turn due to high bouts of sickness = Driver shortage
Depot under establishment and strategically kept that way = Driver shortage

Pretty much as bb21 said:

DfT will want to see improvements should that be the case.

Repeated cancellations do not necessarily indicate a systematic shortage. Many random factors can occur on a regular basis, eg. driver sickness, driver error, high staff turnover, rostering error, diagramming issues, etc.

 

[Tetchytyke]

These things do happen.

They have just been happening for nigh on two years on London Midland, as all of us who had to use late evening trains from Euston could tell you.

Maybe I'm just too unfair on GoVia.

 

[childwallblues]

The 2334 is run by Crewe crews and they have never liked working this service as more often than not there are problems with passenger behaviour.

 

[miami]

The 2334 is run by Crewe crews and they have never liked working this service as more often than not there are problems with passenger behaviour.

I don't like parts of my job either - how would it have any bearing on turning up to work?

 

[LAX54]

Really an employer should have sufficient employees to do all the work normally needed without requiring any overtime to be worked. If they rely on people working overtime to cover some shifts then it's going to lead to problems when a problem outside their control occurs.

Out of interest does anyone know what a TOC usually does if someone is going to be away for a few months but will return to work e.g. if they have an operation or if they are on maternity leave? Obviously getting a temporary train driver is not as practical as getting a temporary receptionist.

Use the spare driver / guard to cover shift, and /or overtime, but of course when you use all the spare crews you have to cover things like this, you are then short if too many go sick or need short notice leave !